Lionel 224 2-6-2 Loco, Which tender ?

Either a 2689 (1938 issue) or a 2224  tender in die cast or plastic, dependindg on year.  Plastic 2224 was 1941 issue.

Those are prewar tenders. Wasn't the 224 steam engine also made after the war?

224E was Prewar, 224 Postwar. I have the die cast 2224W with my 224E

Postwar would have been 2466W.

There is a Postwar version of the 224 that came with a long drawbar that fit into an oval shaped hole in the tender frame. The tender on this version does not have a drawbar like other tenders.
The locomotive's drawbar has small projections at the end to keep it in the hole in the tender frame.

Steamer, 224 was also made in 1941.  I know because I got one for Christmas that year, which I still run occasionally, and there was no "E" on it or the box.  The E-suffix was ititated in late 30's to designate a loco equipped with the new "E-unit" to bring electric reversing to locos.

I have two 1945 224s sitting on the table. Both have black hand rails and the and the tenders have the fiber strip trucks with the early coil knuckle couplers.  One has the long drawbar that goes into the oval hole in the tender. There is no tender marking. This also has the straight cab floor. The other has the typical post was drawbar and the cab has the curved floor.  The tender is marked 2466W. 

RJR posted:

Steamer, 224 was also made in 1941.  I know because I got one for Christmas that year, which I still run occasionally, and there was no "E" on it or the box.  The E-suffix was ititated in late 30's to designate a loco equipped with the new "E-unit" to bring electric reversing to locos.

that's right. IIRC, the 224E&225E went to the plain 224&225 near the end of production, and the 226E went to Lionel Lines.

Under the tender, is stamped 2224W.

Under the tender, is stamped 2224W.

Plastic tender body?

According to Greenberg's guide the correct tender for a post war 224 is the 2466W or 2466WX.

The 224E correct tender is 2224 which can be either a plastic, gun metal die-cast or die-cast black tender, the other tender listed is a 2689. No mention of a whistling tender for the 224E according to Greenberg's guide of 2016 page 27 pre war and page 55 for post war.

The whistling tenders are a post war tender # 2466W or 2466WX, 1945 & 46.

Lee Fritz

C W Burfle posted:

Under the tender, is stamped 2224W.

Plastic tender body?

Yes, there is a plastic version of the 2224W listed by Greenberg's guide.

Lee Fritz

Yes, there is a plastic version of the 2224W listed by Greenberg's guide.

Thanks.
I am aware of the tenders. There are also some interesting variations on how the prewar 224(E) is put together.
I was asking specifically about RJR's locomotive, which he has identified as a 1941 model.

The 224E correct tender is 2224 which can be either a plastic, gun metal die-cast or die-cast black tender, the other tender listed is a 2689. No mention of a whistling tender for the 224E according to Greenberg's guide.

Many prewar locomotives were available with a choice of whistling or non-whistling tenders. Most of the 224(E) locomotives that have been in my hands had whistling tenders. They've had sheet metal, plastic, and die-cast metal bodies.

I just looked at the 1938, 1940, and 1941 Lionel catalogs.

The Lionel 1938  catalog shows the 224E with a choice of non-whistling 2689T tenders or 2689W whistling sheet metal tenders.
The Lionel 1940 and 1941 catalogs shows the 224 (no "E") with a choice of whistling or non-whistling die cast tenders. No mention of whether the tender bodies were metal or plastic.
 

CW, I would say it is plastic.  Now what is meant by gun metal color in Lee's post, I don't know.  If asked, I'd say it's black.  I haven't hefted it lately, but I have a 1947 726 which has a very heavy tender and this is nowhere near as heavy.

Came as part of a set that included a PRR caboose, res steel gondola car w/barrels, Sunoco tank car in gray not silver or black, operating log dump car, RCS track, 167 whistle controller.  I got a Type R transformer with it but I don't know if that was part of the set.

CW, I would say it is plastic.  Now what is meant by gun metal color in Lee's post, I don't know.  If asked, I'd say it's black.  I haven't hefted it lately, but I have a 1947 726 which has a very heavy tender and this is nowhere near as heavy.

Gun metal is very similar to grey, but with a metallic look.
I don't think the plastic tenders were ever done in grey, but I am not positive.

this is gun metal

Thanks.  I would say black plastic.

C W Burfle posted:

Yes, there is a plastic version of the 2224W listed by Greenberg's guide.

Thanks.
I am aware of the tenders. There are also some interesting variations on how the prewar 224(E) is put together.
I was asking specifically about RJR's locomotive, which he has identified as a 1941 model.

The 224E correct tender is 2224 which can be either a plastic, gun metal die-cast or die-cast black tender, the other tender listed is a 2689. No mention of a whistling tender for the 224E according to Greenberg's guide.

Many prewar locomotives were available with a choice of whistling or non-whistling tenders. Most of the 224(E) locomotives that have been in my hands had whistling tenders. They've had sheet metal, plastic, and die-cast metal bodies.

I just looked at the 1938, 1940, and 1941 Lionel catalogs.

The Lionel 1938  catalog shows the 224E with a choice of non-whistling 2689T tenders or 2689W whistling sheet metal tenders.
The Lionel 1940 and 1941 catalogs shows the 224 (no "E") with a choice of whistling or non-whistling die cast tenders. No mention of whether the tender bodies were metal or plastic.  

That's interesting as Greenberg's Lionel guide(2016) don't show the 224 in pre war except as the 224E, also the Greenberg's guide(page 27) only lists the non whistling tenders for any pre war 224E.

A quick way to tell the pre war 224E from the 224 post war engine is to look at the rear of the engine near where the tender hooks up, 224 is rounded and one 224E straight across at the cab area on the floor. The 2224 tender for the 224E has 2 holes in the drawbar.

Looked at sets from the year 1946 & 47 and the 224(1945 & 46, page 55) steam engine was listed with either freight or passenger cars. Also Greenberg's guide listed the 224(possible separate sale item?) in post war as only being made in 1946 & 47(pages 397 set 463W, page 403 sets # 2100, 2100W, 2101, 2101W & 2103W from 1946. 

The post war sets have the whistling tender and the pre war sets don't have a whistling tender according to Greenberg's guide. I have a set with the 224E engine & 2224 non whistling tender with metal frame and plastic body with 2 # 2640 pullman cars and 1 # 2641 observation car.

Lee Fritz

Lee, Greenberg notwithstanding, I have a 224 with whistling tender which I was given in 1941, and ran through WWII, whistling (lousy with a 167 whistle controller, as train would slow down).  BTW, there are also disputes over color of the tank car ijn my set.  Some say it wasn't in gray, and mine always has been.

The post war sets have the whistling tender and the pre war sets don't have a whistling tender according to Greenberg's guide.

Try looking at a real Lionel catalog.
Greenberg and all other guides have errors, omissions, and what ever they called the intentionally false entries they throw in there to facilitate the detection of plagiarism.

In my hardcover greenberg book volume 2  

it lists

A.  1938,224E with a 2689W  sheet metal tender

B. Gun metal with 2224 die cast tender -

was the tender in grey or black ? Never seen the grey version so im curious.

C.Black with 2224 diecast tender .

D. 1941, Black with 2224 plastic tender

I noticed the  2224 die cast tender in "C "  listing shows no W it ,is that a printing error ?

As on page 12 it shows picture the 224E Prewar engine with 2 covers in sand dome square back end long shank with the die cast 2224W tender with rollers on it that has long mating shank with the hole for the post in front of it and the slot to mate with the long shank of engine .

I do not know if these were separate sale items or sets they are referring to as there is no mention of set numbers  in this particular listing on page 11  altough it does say this though for set #463W

As i type what is said in the book below.

The prewar cab was squared off and it came with either a post or a locomotive hook that mated with the tender coupler bar slot. The postwar cab was rounded except for the 224 featured as part of the 1945 set #463W, and the locomotive no longer had a post. It only had a shorter shank hook which mated closely which mated closely with the tender bar slot.

Another way of dating these locomotives is to look at the sand dome. From 1938-1940, two covers were cast into this sand dome.

From 1941 on, including postwar, these dome covers were missing and the sand dome was completely smooth. We wonder why these changes were made.

I also have a few 224/224E's.  One of my more interesting ones has 224 plates with the rest of the prewar details and came with a diecast black 2224T tender with a low coupler suggesting 1941 production.  It was purchased on line as a direct result of an estate sale and came with a set of 2642/43 passenger cars also with the low couplers.

C W Burfle posted:

The post war sets have the whistling tender and the pre war sets don't have a whistling tender according to Greenberg's guide.

...Greenberg and all other guides have errors, omissions, and what ever they called the intentionally false entries they throw in there to facilitate the detection of plagiarism.

"Ringers".

Like the phantom 1666E with Baldwin Disc wheels.

RJR posted:

Lee, Greenberg notwithstanding, I have a 224 with whistling tender which I was given in 1941, and ran through WWII, whistling (lousy with a 167 whistle controller, as train would slow down).  BTW, there are also disputes over color of the tank car ijn my set.  Some say it wasn't in gray, and mine always has been.

I am not 100% certain of what came with what tender because I wasn't born yet. Also I have seen some variations that Greenberg's guide doesn't mention, so I give Greenberg's guide a rating of 85 to 90% for being correct on post war & pre war production models. 

Sometimes at train shows people will sell what ever can be thrown together to look good whether it is correct or not.

Lee Fritz

I found a Lionel 224 (customized as #15) that has the original black handrails.  How can I determine what year it is from? 

I also need to replace the bell, and the jewels.  Any ideas?

Last question.  Should I try to restore back to the original #224 characteristics or leave it as is?  It runs great!

My 224e from 1939 came with a 2224T  tender.  No whistle

@sclouse posted:

I found a Lionel 224 (customized as #15) that has the original black handrails.  How can I determine what year it is from?

I also need to replace the bell, and the jewels.  Any ideas?

Last question.  Should I try to restore back to the original #224 characteristics or leave it as is?  It runs great!

I would just give that a good cleaning, get new jewels and use dry transfers to replace the #s. It looks like it will clean up well.

Today on eBay, I found both replacement (original) 224 number boards with silver numbers, and a pewter bell w/ black boiler bracket (same on both 224 and 1666 boilers).   I was just getting ready to spend a chunk of money on a 224 shell that had both items still attached, but wasn't feeling good about buying something that might have a hope of being returned to service.  I went back, changed my search criteria, and checked one more time and the items popped up.  I'll send updated pics once I receive the items in the mail.

I have a set with a 224E (squared off cab, sand dome with 2 covers) and a tender with no model number that fits the descriptions on the OGR Forum of the 2689W whistle tender. The set came from a member of the AFSGSLA club in St Louis, MO after he passed away so I have no way to discover the history of the set. What's of special interest to me are the 3 passenger cars that came with the 224E and tender: a pair of 607 and one 608, and each with a name plate on the side "Macy Special".  I'm looking for confirmation that this is a 2689W tender and any info on these "Macy Special" passenger cars. I'm certain the 224E and tender have not been altered, I suspect the 3 passenger cars might have been repainted.