Lionel 6-82458 Amtrak Cabbage Disappointment #2.

Hi  John, I dont think I can help but you can help me.  What the hell is a Cabbage Unit?  Thanks much.  Some day Lionel will go back to its roots and offer trains that can be worked on without having a degree in electronics.  As they say, the more complicated the plumbing the easier it is to plug it up.

Rich,

a cabbage unit is an Ex-F40 engine that Amtrak converted so it is just a cab unit for when a train runs push/pull service, and also stores baggage. Hence, cabbage. 

John, I feel your pain

gunrunnerjohn posted:

First off, the number boards on the Cabbage unit are very dim, MUCH dimmer than the number boards on the powered unit.

So, I'm closer, to running units, but I'm still bummed about the really dim number boards.

Question:  Does anyone that owns both the powered and Cabbage units see a vast difference in the number board brightness?  Could this be normal?  I hope not...

On my units the the number boards on the powered unit are much brighter than the number boards on the cabbage units. 

Not sure if the photos help, but to the eye the difference in brightness is quite evident. Headlights are about the same, only the number boards are different. 

Also, when running sometimes the units "forget" that they are part of a train and behave individually. I have to turn off the power and then sometimes they will reform the train and once I had to reprogram them as part of the train. So there is that nuisance. Not a big deal. 

Mine are a LOT dimmer.  Hard to believe it's normal.

Sorry guys. This is one of the most bizarre product blunders of all time IMHO. As hard as it might be, I would send it all back to Lionel and request a full refund. This is just a mess. 

Are the leds the same in both?  But different electronics?  (I assume)

Well if its a dummy and running in the trailing position, the lights should NOT be on anyway 

My bets are they used a different resistor value. The Number Boards are powered off the Track. The RCMC boards do not control it in any way. At least from what I've seen on every model prior to these. I'm not digging the LED Colors on these. Id would change them all.

Maybe they will offer a fix for it, But I doubt Lionel will fix them if you send them back. It maybe a task for the owner to fix the brightness.

John, I would talk to David or Ryan again or just make a road trip to North Carolina to get it corrected. Sorry this has happened to you 

a cabbage unit is an Ex-F40 engine that Amtrak converted so it is just a cab unit for when a train runs push/pull service, and also stores baggage. Hence, cabbage. 

well lets see. Cabbage , runs train in other direction.  head engine ( the real engine) does push/pull duty, there is something funny here I just cannot make the connection.  

SDIV Tim posted:

or just make a road trip to North Carolina to get it corrected.  

Seriously? That is the most absurd thing I've read here in a long time. No customer should have to make a "road trip" to fix the manufacturer's screw up. 

bigtruckpete posted:

Sorry guys. This is one of the most bizarre product blunders of all time IMHO.

Really????   Putting this in proper perspective, in my opinion, one of the "most bizarre product blunders of all time" has been the Takata automobile air bag mess, that has actually KILLED and INJURED people!

As hard as it might be, I would send it all back to Lionel and request a full refund. This is just a mess. 

Hot Water posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

Sorry guys. This is one of the most bizarre product blunders of all time IMHO.

Really????   Putting this in proper perspective, in my opinion, one of the "most bizarre product blunders of all time" has been the Takata automobile air bag mess, that has actually KILLED and INJURED people!

As hard as it might be, I would send it all back to Lionel and request a full refund. This is just a mess. 

 

Darn it Jack.  Would you please stop using logic, common sense, and facts with these arguments?  

Why is it that there seems to be a inverse correlation between price and quality.  The more that the manufacturers charge for their product the more problems that accompany each piece.  

It this is true, the solution is simple:  LOWER the price and the quality should improve.

That inverse relationship is a simple correlation with the much higher complexity.  As that storied philosopher Montgomery Scott noted, "There more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

Hot Water posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

Sorry guys. This is one of the most bizarre product blunders of all time IMHO.

Really????   Putting this in proper perspective, in my opinion, one of the "most bizarre product blunders of all time" has been the Takata automobile air bag mess, that has actually KILLED and INJURED people!

As hard as it might be, I would send it all back to Lionel and request a full refund. This is just a mess. 

 

Lol!! ROTFL!!! Okay. I'll bite. After thorough review and multiple consultations with legal counsel, I have been advised to add the follow qualifications to my prior opinion and general market commentary. 

1. My OPINION was limited to the O gauge/scale train market per forum regulations. Remember, this is a train forum and therefore, all comments and discussions should be related to such. Automobile product issues should be reserved for their appropriate social media outlets.

2. I stated "bizarre". Nowhere was it stated or implied that the product shortcomings were harmful or intended to cause bodily harm, disfigurement or death with or without intent.

3. Please review a dictionary for the definitions of bizarre as opposed to horrific, deceitful, malicious. 

At the end of the day it is a bizarre situation that so many of the locos from one batch have so many and varied problems. I don't expect perfection with any of our toys from any manufacturer. What I do expect is prompt explanation, accountability and a proper fix.

Ultimately all I want is for my friends that purchased these really nice looking locos to have them repaired to as advertised functionality so they can enjoy a fine model of a classic. 

another example of "RES IPSA SCREWED UP CHOO CHOO"

NOTTE BENE: This phrase will NOT be found in Black's Law Dictionary or in any Law School Curriculum !

I like the look of the dimmer cabbage numberboard. Maybe I will put a 22 ohm resistor on my powered unit to dim it a bit. Another poster complained about the color of the headlights, I don't care for the color either, a bit too green. I am happy Lionel is shipping mine back already, Thank Lionel!

Fred

I'll probably take a peek inside the Cabbage unit and brighten up the number boards.  I think it may be mechanical after talking to Dave, maybe the number board PCB has just gotten out of position.

At least with the dimmer boards you can read the numbers, if that is any consolation!

SJC posted:

SDIV Tim posted:

or just make a road trip to North Carolina to get it corrected.  

Seriously? That is the most absurd thing I've read here in a long time. No customer should have to make a "road trip" to fix the manufacturer's screw up. 

RELAX "SIC" - all Tim's "left field" posts will be better once we find him a wife! 

GRJ,

I could only find one photo of an NPCU in a station to be able to observe the number boards. They look dimmer. At least it's correctly numbered.

In most of the daytime photos they are off. Can you turn them off?

SURFLINER posted:

SJC posted:

SDIV Tim posted:

or just make a road trip to North Carolina to get it corrected.  

Seriously? That is the most absurd thing I've read here in a long time. No customer should have to make a "road trip" to fix the manufacturer's screw up. 

RELAX "SIC" - all Tim's "left field" posts will be better once we find him a wife! 

I thought Tim was chasing Dougs wife

After consulting with Dave, Ryan, and Dean at Lionel, I think I actually will go with their opinion that they're about right and the powered unit is way too bright.  I can fix that pretty easily, so that's probably what I'll do.

John, you mean you're not going to drive it to lionel to get fixed

Well, I kinda' did.  I took it to the booth and put it on their track there.

I'm with the other sane people that think the master unit's number lights are waaaay too bright!

Maybe they'd consider digital potentiometers... with an appropriate command interface.

Let's start with getting the paint right, body and trim right and operation correct then maybe we can propose lighting brightness control thru the command interface. If the simple stuff doesn't work why would making it more complicated solve anything?

So ok, what's the exact problem here.  Is the wrong resistor being used in the leds - and these are literally "inline" with the wiring?  Or are the resistors on a PCB anyway and that's not it?   Or...

I've been told that both are powered from the RCMC, but obviously in a different manner.  I can't really say how they're wired or controlled, sounds like a Lionel question.

Does RCMC stand for "rail command master controller"?   Anyway I only know enough to be dangerous which means:  I don't know what I am really talking about.  But why stop with that?

All the hobby electronic stuff I see involving LEDs for the home projects involve putting a resister inline with + line in the wiring.   You can do the math or fiddle.  Likewise I'd imagine PCBs might just include the right resisters already for any "led out" lines...   so one would imagine in the former case that it would be easy to just put the wrong resister in for whatever reason.

While in the PCB case, one imagines it would be all the harder...

But one never knows... the wrong resister or low quality ones can be as I understand it again, often be off by substantial amounts...

Or maybe it's not that... maybe the LEDs are just different... when they should not be or there is some other issue.

Basically just speculating...

I know that both of the sets of LED's are wired to the RCMC, at least according to Dave Olsen at Lionel, I hope he should know.  As for exactly what drives them, I can't say, but the RCMC has a host of direct LED outputs as shown in the diagram below.  This is from the document written by Bruk Bannister, a great RCMC reference.  Since I have yet to crack the case on mine, I can't say what they're wired to.

standard size leds you think? (5mm)

ecd15 posted:

Hot Water posted:

bigtruckpete posted:

Sorry guys. This is one of the most bizarre product blunders of all time IMHO.

Really????   Putting this in proper perspective, in my opinion, one of the "most bizarre product blunders of all time" has been the Takata automobile air bag mess, that has actually KILLED and INJURED people!

As hard as it might be, I would send it all back to Lionel and request a full refund. This is just a mess. 

Darn it Jack.  Would you please stop using logic, common sense, and facts with these arguments?  

This train thing maybe a blunder.

Calling the Takata situation a blunder is way toooooooo light a term. Friend just received a recall notice for their 2014 vehicle in May 2017.   Says the Airbag could cause serious injury or death, and they can make an appointment to bring it in. HOW? DRIVE IT? So they've been driving this potential death trap unawares for 3 years. That is a crime, not a blunder.

Now back to the Cabbages, does each unit have the same boards and LED's in it, or did they install different items in the dummies? 

Severn posted:

standard size leds you think? (5mm)

The size of the LED is not significant, generic 2mm, 3mm, and 5mm LED's all run at 20ma max.  There are some other types, but I seriously doubt they're used in most Lionel stuff, everything I've encountered has been of the 20ma variety.

BobbyD posted:

Now back to the Cabbages, does each unit have the same boards and LED's in it, or did they install different items in the dummies? 

I was told they are powered in a different manner in the Cabbage than the powered units.

but also doesn't the "candle power" differ by manufacturer of the leds? same "kind", color, etc...?