Lionel 601 Switcher Horn issue

Insure there is no corrosion anywhere in the battery holder or where it gets mounted on the frame. Insert a fresh battery and close the horn relay contact by hand. The horn should blow. If it does not, recheck the electrical circuitry from the battery to the horn using a DC voltmeter.

Larry

I tried closing the relay by hand and it didn’t work. I just found it odd that the horn blew when I touched the wire to the battery spring and the roller contact tab. I don’t have a DC voltmeter but could it be a bad tab from the relay?

Burnish the two relay tabs gently with some very fine emery cloth to get off any dirt or corrosion. Clean off the contacts of any residue. Make sure the two tabs of the relay are touching each other solidly when the relay closes. Make sure the insulation is intact and installed properly.

With the power off, using a piece of wire, touch the battery bracket to the tab that the horn wire is soldered to. The horn should sound. If it does, and the horn does not sound when the relay is closed by hand, triple check the wiring according to the diagram posted above. It sounds like a wiring problem.

Sometimes the hinge at the rear of the relay makes bad contact between the case of the relay and the movable tab, causing the horn not to sound. This may require dismantling the relay to clean that joint. Remember, we are using only 1.5 volts here, and the slightest resistance will cause a no horn scenario.

Get an inexpensive  multi-meter. It is a staple item needed for repairs.

Larry

Larry,

I cleaned the relay contacts and they are very tight when connecting with power. I also cleaned the tabs before soldering on the wire. What you describe is pretty much what happened last night; no power, wire touching the battery holder and the horn sounded. Side note: I have my Greenberg repair book next to me with the diagrams open! The wiring looks good too; nothing routed incorrectly. I traced each one back. Does that screw on top allow for removal of the relay, because if so maybe I can get in there to make sure the relay is moving freely? You’re right about the voltmeter. I do need one. As I get better at repairs, and attempt more, it seems I do need it. My last resort is to open the horn itself but since it sounded with the wires touching the battery holder, I don’t think I need to 

Larry,

so get this. I was testing out the relay again, with power, and it wasn’t working yet. But I tapped the top of the horn gently and it worked. As soon as I release the horn on the transformer, and gave it power again, if I tap it, it blows perfect. But only with a tap. Which leads me to believe that it’s an internal horn issue; and, that means opening up and cleaning the inner pieces of the horn itself. I can’t imagine it’s a wiring issue or relay issue anymore. So now the trick becomes, can I get the horn open without breaking a tab? I need some luck....

@James B posted:

...can I get the horn open without breaking a tab? I need some luck....

Try cleaning the contacts electrically first - by using it. It might be excruciating to have it bleating for a duration, but this may get the contacts working right again.  Some use some AC on the horn to get the contacts working at a different frequency and loosen up some oxidation.

Well, it’s working! I opened up the horn, cleaned the tiny contact and shined the inner part of the horn, especially around the edges, and carefully put it back together. One tab broke ):

However, it’s working perfect and I just have to adjust the screw to fix the tone. Thanks guys for all of your help!

I thought the horn was working already when you checked it with a battery?

Hi Chuck,

it was working with no power to it, but only when I touched the wire to the battery spring. But after cleaning the horn and lightly sanding the inner contacts, despite the one broken tab, it’s now working on the track. You’ve helped me in the past so I’ll ask this: is it worth soldering on the broken tab in place, or should I leave it alone since it’s working?

It doesn't mean it stayed that way. Debris can jam them up good too.

  I used to clean and revive all kinds of horns as a kid; including the bicycle kind . A diaphragm obstruction/gunk can stop them intermediately.

Next time, hold the opening faced down when you fire up a horn out of storage; let the crap fall out the opening(s) vs towards wedging into the  diaphragm edges.

Hmmm that’s one I’ll remember for next time. I’ll say this: this is by far the cleanest horn I’ve opened up, no dust or debris visible. I think it just needed a little polishing and those tiny little contacts on the inside needed to be cleaned. It’ll never get opened again because those tabs are so sensitive. If another one breaks, the horn is toast. I’m just glad it’s working; the engine itself is really clean and now fully operational. 

No, you don't need to solder the broken tab if it now working OK.  Glad you got it to work. One other tip is with engines that take a 'C' battery ( switchers and Alco 027 engines) is the battery it's self. Depending on the brand of battery, Some are made with the casing of the battery is rolled over the bottom of the rear. The casing roll is thick enough that when inserted in the battery housing the bottom of the battery will not touch the housing for ground. The casing roll pushes enough that the bottom will not touch the indent. It looks correct when inserted straight, but an incomplete circuit. It will work if the battery of this type is canted in the bracket. Then some 'C' batteries that the bottom contact is extended past the casing and work fine.

Chuck,

I got the 601 running and the horn blowing well. So yesterday I picked up a really nice 2348 GP-9, in the original box. I oiled the motor and put it on track to test it. Lights go on, horn looks and sounds factory new, But it won’t run. I took off the entire wheel assembly and cleaned out the gears (gross stuff lingering in there), cleaned the armature and anything else I could get to. Put new grease on the gears, then realized the coil wire coming out of the motor wasn’t soldered on to the contact on the bottom of the motor. I opened up my 2346 to see where it went, and I confirmed that’s where the coil wire goes. Soldered it on, but it still won’t run. Brushes and armature plate are all clean, so is this a possible e-unit issue? When I try to reverse it, it’s clicking and switching but it won’t go. What’s going on here? Thanks. 

Are all 3 wires attached to the solder lugs on the brushplate? If so, probably the E unit.

Yes they’re all attached. There’s a tiny bit of green corrosion present but the soldering itself looks clean. How difficult is it to clean and/or repair the e unit? That’s new territory for me. It’s weird because the e unit seems to be switching. The arm that shifts up and down is moving when I hit the reverse control on the transformer. 

For any postwar locomotive, you can isolate the motor from the 'E' unit by wiring it according to the middle-left diagram here, Wiring Diagram of Locomotives with no Reversing Mechanism.  The locomotive should run in one direction. Reverse the brush connections and the loco should run in the opposite direction. The motor must pass this test.

Here is a good 2 part tutorial on rebuilding Lionel 'E' units. Part 1 and Part 2

After cleaning and lubing your locomotive and verifying the motor and 'E' unit are working properly, your loco should give many more years of service.

Larry

When you cycle the reverse unit, does it groan if it try's to move? Locked gears? If the drum on the Eunit looks fairly clean, it questionable if that's the problem, unless the fingers are damaged. Field wire secure to solder lug? Check wire from E unit hot solder lug to the first finger on the 4 finger board. This wire supplies voltage to the motor.

It sounds like it’s going to move, as the cycle sounds as it does on an engine that’s running. The gears aren’t locked because as I move it by hand along the track, the drum is spinning freely. I cleaned the gears out really well, too, and put all new grease in there. It was pretty nasty. The drum looks clean too. The three tabs connecting the wires from the rollers look a tiny bit oxidized, but not rusted. Just that green tint like when a brass hot water pipe starts to corrode. All the soldered wires seem secure too. I looked over it as best I could. I’m tempted to take the e unit apart, but this would be a first time job for me. In order to check that wire from the e unit solder lug to the first finger, would I need to remove the e unit from the bracket?

Oh one more thing...so when the loose coil wire I found last night touched the center tab on the top of the e unit, the engine went forward briefly. The coil wire isn’t supposed to be soldered there, but it conducted something that made it move. That wire, according to how my 2346 is wired, goes at the bottom tab of the motor near the chassis. Just a coincidence?

Can you post some pictures of the wiring on top and side of the motor and reverse unit?

Here’s a few pictures of the e unit and motor wiring. Things look right, unless I’m missing something. 

Looking at your pictures, it is not clear where the second field coil wire goes. One properly goes to ground, but the other does not show. It should go to the top set of contacts on the 'E' unit. A better picture of that wire please.

Larry

Hmmmm I’ll have to go back and check. Maybe I missed something. I’ll take a look and put up a few more pictures

Ok here are a few more pictures. The first is of both wires from the motor drum coil on to the ground tab. Is that correct? The others are of the e unit coil. Hopefully this helps!

Whoa! The problem is you have both field wires to the ground lug. Unsolder either one and solder to the center motor lug, the same one with the green wire.

Well, that explains it! Let’s see if I get this baby going with that easy fix. Stay tuned...

BINGO!!! That did it. Works perfect! Horn sounds awesome and she’s running smoothly. Guys, I appreciate all your help once again. 

Be safe,

James

Hi guys,

Question about my 601. The pinion gear on the motor truck is a bit loose and will cause grinding sometimes. Before replacing the entire motor truck (as it’s been suggested the pinion gear is more expensive to fix than buying a whole new motor truck), I had a thought. The rivet seems to turn with the gear. Would a few small spots of crazy glue or other adhesive on the edge of the gear where it meets the rivet be enough to hold it in place and stop the wobbling around? When it doesn’t do this the engine runs great. But that grinding noise is awful and I was just wondering if anyone has encountered this problem and how to fix it. Your help is appreciated. Thanks!

James

The stud the pinion gear turns on is pressed into the frame and should be re-staked if it is loose. Gluing it in place may work, but I would suspect it will come loose again.

Find a Lionel dealer with a press that can be used to repair the stud. Using the loco as-is will eventually chew up all your gears.

Larry

Re-staking the stud is not as easy as some people make it out to be. It is just this side of impossible. In order to reach the studs to re-stake, the wheels must be pulled and the aluminum sides taken apart and separated to reach. Not an easy task, even for a seasoned repair person. And then reassemble the soft aluminum sides together and re-stake the sides.

My suggestion is clean as best possible with a Q-tip and solvent the stud and surrounding area. Then with a small screwdriver apply Red Loc-tite, not super glue, around the inside of the staked stud. Let sit for 24 hours then reassemble.

Chuck if you want to laugh, the head repairman at TrainLand here on Long Island told me it would be cheaper and quicker to buy and install an entirely different NW2 motor truck rather than repair the rivet for this gear! I have blue Loc-tite, is there a chance that would work? I’m going to clean off any grease and gunk from the gear as well as I can. It’s such an impossible spot to work on and I’m not about to start messing around with an engine that otherwise runs well. Hoping the clean surface and Loc-tite does the trick.

Blue may work, but red has more gripping power. Super glue won't hold on aluminum.