Lionel Acela passenger car derailment

I would guess the first step would be to check the trucks on the cars to make sure there's nothing obvious.  Next, check the track-work.  I know that I thought I was being pretty careful, I had one spot where there was about a 1/8" dip around an O72 curve on an elevated section.  Don't you know, more than one locomotive managed to find that spot and derail there!  Sometimes It doesn't take much to cause a problem.

One way I check the levelness of the track is with a rectangular piece of clear Plex that has trucks attached to both ends of the Plex.

The size of the Plex and truck placement should match the car you want to check. Then roll the Plex over the track and watch how the trucks are affected by the track. I also put an electronic level on top of the Plex and read the levelness as I move the Plex.

This is an HO version sold by Micro-Mark.

I definitely observed with this train that O-72 minimum really means O-72 minimum! I also experienced derailment on sections of my Gargraves flex track that were not perfectly O-72+. It did force me to make long overdue corrections to the trackage. 

I would start with  running the lash up engines only with 2 inches of space and see if the two are at the same speed.

I had this issue last week.
I had The two engines out of sync with speed
In TR lash up paired with two different ID
Numbers.
I had Trouble over switches cause of the out of sync faster movement of the 2024 engine which cause derailment cause of the either extra speed push to drag.

I tested by running  the train with 2021 leading with 2024 trailing uncoupled  inches apart and  in one loop it closed the gap and derailed the car in front because it’s faster.
The drag and pushing force  based on if the slow or faster engine is leading cause car derailment in curves and switches.
This made for a lot of derailment. With the one engine running at a different speed than the other.

lionel RA

When running the full complement of 6 cars plus the 2 powered units on an oval track with switches I am seeing the derailment issues mentioned by #michjo and #zigmont above. As I noted in an earlier posting, if there is the slightest irregularity in the O-72 track (like 2 sections in track not perfectly joined) the cars will derail. I spent most of the day trying to eliminate those issues but the powered trailing engine, as #zigmont points out, exacerbates the problem. Another issue is when there is a derailment, sometimes my engines become inoperable going into the blinking-cab-light mode (a little like the Windows blue screen of death).  I have been able to recover only by resetting the engine and leaving the power off for an extended period.  Most of my testing is now done without a trailing engine just to get any remaining kinks out of track. I assume the derailment issue may be significantly lessened for those running larger diameter curves.   

What is the cure to get the engines in sync correctly?

I programed my locos as a pair, assigning them 1 tmcc id number. I have one passenger car that really likes to derail on O72 curves. I took that car out and no issues. However, I think if you run this on small O72 loops the train is changing length in corners due to the kinematic couplers/connections. Its especially noticeable with my 21” passenger cars. Bigger layouts with wider curves and more straight sections probably alleviate most of the derailing issues.

@c.sam posted:

What is the cure to get the engines in sync correctly?

I'm experimenting today with cleaning the entire loop by hand to see if that improves synchronization because each engine is operating in a vastly different portion of the track. I also would like to know from a Legacy expert if there is a way to make the trailing engine run slightly slower than the lead engine by programming in a brake load of some sort. I still have each engine running with different ID's. I've never tried a Legacy build with two engines of the same ID back-to-back. I didn't think that was allowed in Legacy.

I had the original set and then a Lionel dealership replacement aka the second  acela set

I have experienced  the trailing engine run slightly slower than the lead engine. I had the first set replaced cause it was derailing cause the speed difference  with a pushing/drag force on a train. The rear engine going faster derails the couch car in front on curves and derails on switches.

My first Acela set

I had the Acela engines back to back 2 inch’s of separation as a lash-up TR. Moving forward with 2024 the head engine and 2021 rear they separated in traveling 7 ft 14 inches of separation and @14 ft of  travel to 24 inches further apart. That’s a pushing/drag force on a train. The 2021 engine didn’t start moving at the same as time as 2024, Its lagged. That’s a pulling force. Now Going forward with engine 2021 lead  - 2024 rear at 8 inches separation The 2024 catches up and pushes the slower 2021 this caused derailments. Its caused mayhem. So that could be a tell.

Second Acela Set (replacement)

The train works just fine and high speed is amazing. But the two engines are not sync perfect. The faster one on my set is 2024 and it's the lead now.  There a lot of movement is the couplers (like a real train) side to side and compressing and expanding around curves. I'm on 084 rad curves. Its needs 096.

If I run this set under the test conditions the engines  stay close to each other with pulling  apart and come close again around the loop. Perhaps by design  or its a flaw. My set fly's around the track and the sounds are awesome. Will that cause motors to burn out faster? time will tell. So yeah please some Legacy expert if there is a way to make the trailing engine run slightly slower than the lead engine by programming in a brake load of some sort.

From what I am reading there is a speed sync issue from minor to major. As I had my first set major out of sync engines replacement minor speed issue. Train runs

the couplers I feel will be the curse of this set.
I have a sound car with a broke coupler and I bought a second expansion pak that sound cafe car has a electric board issue. The announcement and sounds work with lights bright and in a min the lights dim almost blinking and sounds stop functioning. Reset power and it repeats.

Don’t get me talking about the cafe car speaker exposed. How does that happen?

who testing?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I would guess the first step would be to check the trucks on the cars to make sure there's nothing obvious.  Next, check the track-work.  I know that I thought I was being pretty careful, I had one spot where there was about a 1/8" dip around an O72 curve on an elevated section.  Don't you know, more than one locomotive managed to find that spot and derail there!  Sometimes It doesn't take much to cause a problem.

This is the same issue I have. I've found a few spots where my track dips a bit and the Acela is the first set that doesn't cooperate with the inconsistencies. One of my big o96 curves is super elevated and the transition out isn't smooth. I will now have to make some long over due adjustments.

One of the derailment issues I found was an area on the main level where the homasote was slightly uneven. It would cause a very slight dip in the outer rail of a curve. In particular, the far truck on the passenger car immediately in front of the pushing, trailing engine would jump the rail. The solution was to put shims in to bank the curve. This problem never happened before with any other train set.

The solution was to put shims in to bank the curve.
so not even with a level but to slim the outside of the  curve? so that the outer edge is above the inner edge.

Ok

@Zigmont posted:

The solution was to put shims in to bank the curve.
so not even with a level but to slim the outside of the  curve? so that the outer edge is above the inner edge.

Yes, only in the problem curved areas. I adjusted the outer rail height up-and-down (using the shim) until the derailing stopped.  I did not use a level, so it was a trial and error adjustment. I won't claim this works 100% of the time but it did help in a couple of instances.

I had the exact same issue with my acela model.

The coupler springs that pull the cars closer together on a straight also have a torque component on a curve that's normal to the track plane, so some of the force is exerted upward from the table and can push the flanges out of the track.  Stretching the springs a bit and softening them straightened this out pretty much instantly.

The acela is the only model in our club like this and the only one that was derailing on the curves. The added force from the pull spring makes it far more susceptible to the rails being out of plane than other models.

Derailment with the original Acela set. This one cost me an engine coupler.

Spectacular

Adrian,

What is the diameter of your club track where you observed the derailment?  Greater than O-72?

I guess I should have taken a picture when two Acela passenger cars derailed and smashed into the support columns for my elevated trolley line. What a mess!

Before both my engines failed and after I had worked out most of the kinks in my track, I had the most success running the Acela very slowly. I also added a super-fast breaker at the transformer output, not so much to protect the electronics, but simply to instantly stop the Acela motors from dragging derailed cars into scenery and further jolting the engines. I think all of the previous derailments put a heavy toll on the engines.

@Chris Lord posted:

Derailment with the original Acela set. This one cost me an engine coupler.

That looks painful. Happen on a switch?

@BobbyD posted:

That looks painful. Happen on a switch?

Yup.  The switch "somehow" was thrown to out and the train hit it at a good clip.  Didn't have any derail issues until this.

Has anyone considered how light these cars appear to be? That was my first impression of both the powered units and the cars - wow are these things light. Either they are very light or all these push-ups I am doing is making me stronger

I still have a few weeks of layout work to complete before I can test my PE set. I like the graphics save the wavy snow pattern on the roofs; the cars are very long, likely need to check clearances.

@Bruce Brown posted:

Adrian,

What is the diameter of your club track where you observed the derailment?  Greater than O-72?

I guess I should have taken a picture when two Acela passenger cars derailed and smashed into the support columns for my elevated trolley line. What a mess!

Before both my engines failed and after I had worked out most of the kinks in my track, I had the most success running the Acela very slowly. I also added a super-fast breaker at the transformer output, not so much to protect the electronics, but simply to instantly stop the Acela motors from dragging derailed cars into scenery and further jolting the engines. I think all of the previous derailments put a heavy toll on the engines.

Yeah its a flex-track curved section but definitely way over 72" probably close to 100"

@Adrian! posted:

Yeah its a flex-track curved section but definitely way over 72" probably close to 100"

Yikes!!  I intuitively didn't expect the layouts with such a large diameter to experience the derailment problems

Wow, all these problems with the new Acela set is bring up bad memories of the problems with the first run.   I only had a temporary layout for the last few years and never got to running my Acela to test for all the problems with the first run and now that I'm in between houses won't have a place to test it out for at least another year.

One of the reasons I stayed in 3 rail with the oversized track, trucks and wheel flanges would compensate for less than perfect track. 

Was the speed being out of sync between the two engines an issue with the first run as well?

Maybe a fix is offering a dummy loco in the future.

eric segals video and rbp chris's video and others on youtube seem to run fine. lets hope the engine speed issue is not wide spread.

The engines in my set run good as far as the speed. Had them running about two feet apart and they keep that distance no problem. Had a problem with the rollers getting stuck up and grounding to the frame. Just put a drop of oil on the spring ends of the pickups. Had problem with engine shorting out on Lionel O-72 tubular switch. Took switch out and ground down control rails. Now engines run through switch fine. Problem now is the cars derailing on 0-72 curves. Tried kind of stretching springs without taking the springs off the car and just working the couplers back and forth. Oiled the wheels as they don't turn real well. No joy still derailing. Going to check the weight and maybe add some to bring up to spec. Not  sure how and where to add weight yet. Funny had to do a lot of track tweaking to get the atlas scale passenger cars to run without derailing. Guess might have to do a little more.

I didn't buy  the Acela train but it sure reminds me of the train I am now assembling for my aerial layout now under construction.  I bought a Legacy PA set (New Haven line, red and black) of 2 powered A models (built to be run as a pair).  I now have those locomotives still in the box but have not yet put them on a track.  Also I pre-ordered three 2-packs of matching black & red NH passenger cars, to be shipped in May or June I think.

Am I headed for the same problems of speed synchronization and derailments?  Or is there something very specific to the Acela set? 

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

eric segals video and rbp chris's video and others on youtube seem to run fine. lets hope the engine speed issue is not wide spread.

Mine runs very smooth, like in Eric's video.  Both engines are a synced up just fine.

I run mine on a dedicate O-72 loop.  It's basically a long, sweeping loop, with a couple nice long straight sections to stretch its legs.    I only have one main switch on this part of my layout that goes to a multi-track siding where I park a couple other locos that I only run on the all O-72 part.    No derailments so far.

My new Acela just glides around the layout, so to speak, just as I saw Eric's doing in his video

thats great to hear. maybe its the track on people's layouts that is part of the problem.

I did not have big enough curves to run the set right now. so I ordered some 072 fastrack curves and some 30 inch straight pieces to make a nice large oval to test it out on.

lets hope it is just like yours escaperocks.

With both my Acela engines off the Lionel for repair (no problem getting the RA# and pre-paid shipping label), I did an experiment to run the six passenger cars using only a lead engine. The purpose was to 1) see if the cars would derail without a trailing engine, and 2) see if the cars would run in reverse only using the one engine.  As @Gweedo infers above, there is a bit more drag exhibited by these cars than expected so I used a substantial engine--a Lionel S3 Northern--to pull them. I linked the tender to the passenger car using copper wire typically used to wind inductive coils.

1) I was able to run the 6 cars in 18' x 14' loop, with 7 switches and one crossover, for at least 10 rotations without derailing. Of course, I spent many hours over the weekend to make some adjustments to the track while my Acela engines were operable.  The simple conclusion is that the passenger cars can be made to work on O-72 track, at least without the trailing/pushing engine.

2) Running the engine in reverse, the cars derailed in less than one loop. This was not surprising because it visually appears that the Lionel pin-and-slot coupler was only designed to be used in a pulling mode. When the cars were pushed in reverse, the corner of the cars actually touched each other to produce the derailment. The real purpose of the test was to determine if running one up-front engine, or even putting the Acela engines upfront in an A-A configuration, would be practical. The answer is no assuming you would want to reverse the train at some point. This also would make the use of a dummy trailing engine also impractical because of the type of couplers on these passenger cars.

BTW, @Gweedo also mentions the Acela engine shorting problem when the roller gets accidentally stuck up in the frame. This happened to me once after a derailment. It produces a dead short to the transformer!

At some point I hope to talk to the Lionel repair tech about the issue of keeping the lead and trailing engines in perfect synchronization to prevent derailments.

Happy to report Acela and all six cars are running great. Seen how Bruce hooked up his S3 northern to Acela cars. Took a old Lionel pulmor powered Train Master and hooked up to Acela cars to track down derailments. Found trucks on two cars were a little loose. Tighten those up . Still having derailments found track needed adjustments in a couple places. Had to push a 0-72 curve out a little on a s curve. Had to shim up a spot on another 0-72 curve.  Now train runs great no problem and wow what a great train it is.

My second set runs great too. But i Have Both cafe sound cars in repair. Coupler feel off and electric issues after 60 seconds lights ddim almost blinking and sounds stops working. just power on  off resets it. When it stops 60 second the dimming and sounds mayhem.

@Zigmont posted:

i Have Both cafe sound cars in repair.

Well, you are in direct competition with my two engines being repaired at Lionel !

Looks like your club-car came out of their Area 51 Acela set.

When all our warranties expire next year, hopefully GRJ will be ready with his full-time "Acela Repair Service"