Lionel Air Whistle --No more random blowing. Now sparking.

A couple random observations from a few minutes of "tinkering"....

1) In reverse, the whistle sound varies from intense to low on its own. Same voltage going forward does not show a variation. 

2) Also in reverse, there is heavy sparking from the truck with the pick up roller under the tender. Little to no sparking in forward

3) Whistle still blows itself in forward and back in curves, straight, switches, over lock ons, etc but not at a regular consistency. Just whenever it wants. Doesn't appear to be a DC Off set. If I jiggle the tender on the track with power, the whistle motor will start up but not enough to blow the whistle. 

Guess it is going back to the store....unfortunately the store is an hour drive one way and the store was very busy today with other trains running on the layout so it was difficult to really gauge the performance. 

Clean the track. Your symptoms, every one, points to dirty track & intermittent electrical connection/interruption.

Did that, twice actually per original post with no change.

Got another question...

The random whistling has pretty much stopped, same with the arcing looking for a ground except at high (near roll over) speeds. I notice it often on the switches - does the brief dead spot/bumps over the switch "confuse" the whistle triggering it to blow? 

Postwar relay operated whistles and horns had a tendency to blow intermittently because of dirty wheels/rollers/track or other momentary interruptions of power, such as going over switches as you observe.

It is very possible that the electronic relay for the newer air whistles can be affected in a similar way, and cause random blowing.

Larry

Wonder if a lighted car or small load on the track  would prevent the random blowing.??

Larry - Thanks. It seems like it is most prone to doing it's own thing at high speeds on joints and switches. Sometimes it will sound passing over a lock on but very, very rarely. I don't know much (OK, anything) on Postwar pieces but recall this being a common thing so I thought I'd ask. 

Gregg - I've got a lighted caboose on there now but haven't taken it off (just swapped engines). I'll have to take it off tomorrow and see if there is any major change. Thanks. 

Adding a caboose or a lighted lock-on won't help the random whistle blowing, as it is a dirty condition like Rob mentioned.

Instead try cleaning the axle areas and the copper pick-up areas on the truck assembly and center rail roller must be cleaned as well, if it keeps happening. 

FYI, your engine was made from 1993 to 1995 according to Greenberg's price guide.

Lee Fritz

Lee, 

I've found it mostly occurs at high speed (think rollover speed). At the same time, when pressing the whistle button, there is minor sparking/arcing from that truck while it is looking for a ground. No sparking at lower speeds. I think lack of good contact at high speed doesn't help and is a bit part of the issue. Cleaned multiple times at no major change at high speeds. 

FYI, the engine is of 2004 vintage. 

Not sure if it would help you but try using a Lionel transformer and see what happens instead of the MTH Z-1000.

Also do you have any 027 track accessories or remote uncoupling track in 027? Not asking about Ross or Gargraves track or switches. The reason being sometimes a Lionel 027 uncoupling track or switch can give you some issues with the whistle.

Lee Fritz

SJC, Quite a few have already mentioned it, but between dirty track, AND pick up rollers and wheels on the tender itself, also could be dirt between the truck itself and the frame itself(in post war trains, they make the ground, hence complete the circuit) OR the relay may need to be adjusted slightly, in any event, the whistles were prone to blow every now and again on there own, just the nature of the beast!

Uncle Al

Lee - No such things on my layout other than switches. 

Al - Yes, dirt is a big part of the issue but the arcing/sparking (which has decreased substantially the more it runs) at faster (think near roll-over) speed seems to also cause some pitting/dirt and a silver colored substance on the wheels and track. My solution - run slower. I don't particularly like running at near supersonic speeds anyway! 

Your comment, "the more I run it the better it gets" has prompted the following suggestion...

It may sound counter-intuitive but; consider oiling the pickup rollers and also check for excessive bluing on the tender's wheels.

Best,

Dave

Dave,

Thanks. I've been running it a good bit this afternoon and a few minutes this morning. Random whistling is a thing of the past but arcing/sparking when blowing the whistle is still very much present and really the only issue and am concerned about it. Could it be caused by the speed of the train - going a bit too quick to maintain good connection with the rails/wheels/rollers? If I turn the cruise off on my MTH PS2/3 engines and crank them up, there will be a good bit of sparking. None with cruise at all speed ranges. 

I've oiled everything lightly as we all know things can go down hill fast when you get too much oil on things. 

As for bluing - I'll admit I'm a total, 100% fool when it comes to anything electrical. I'm not really sure what to look for, etc in regards to bluing. The whistle pickup is only on the rear tender truck. I was noticing a silver-ish/grey crud on the flanges. I scrapped it off the other day and haven't seen it since. I also did note some "spots" of hazy crud along the outside rails. Not sure if it is connected but thought I'd mention it. 

Appreciate the info/help. 

Back in the day when I first got into programming any "bug" that the user would discover we referred to as "an undocumented enhancement".

Looks to me that you have just discovered this feature on you loco.  Probably something that Lionel failed to include in its operators manual.

Hang in there.  There are plenty of smart people on this forum and I am sure that your issue will be resolved shortly.

SJC,

The bluing is how the bare metal is treated in an attempt to prevent corrosion.  Just like a gun is blued; same principle.  As you run your trains, the bluing will wear off and bare metal is exposed and presumably provide better contact.  I've seen wheels that had quite a "layer" of bluing.  As you pointed out, you had to scrape off "crud" from the flanges.  You might want to take a Dremel with a brass brush to the tender's wheel/flanges to see if that helps any.  Scotchbrite to the rails followed by alcohol or your favorite track cleaner and a good vacuuming or blow job.  Another thought might be to add some weight to the tender to assist in creating better contact with the rails.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Keep us posted!

Best,

Dave

SF Jim - Undocumented features have reared their heads before. I'm pretty good at "finding" them.

Dave, 

Thanks for the detailed description. So if I understand it correctly, bluing is not caused by the sparking/arcing of wheels and/or rollers? I don't own a Dremel (yet) but can and will ScotchBrite the wheels. I guess the joints on tubular track don't help either but I just don't want any further issues, etc as you can probably understand. 

OK a couple of things. Is the tender a postwar one, or the one that originally came with the engine? (in other words, old style relay or electronic circuit board) It could be a bad circuit board.

 Most likely a pick-up issue. Snap the roller assembly out of the truck and then use a pair of needle nose pliers and bend the copper spring down slightly so the roller has more downward pressure on the rails. I would have your service man also install a second pick-up assembly to the front truck to increase reliability.

Chuck

It is a modern air whistle. Electronic board. My repair guy had mentioned he had a number of bad circuit boards recently so it is a possibility but since it behaves fine outside of some sparking/arcing, I don't think it really is a bad board (though I may be wrong). 

I will probably have another roller put on regardless. Thanks!

SJC,

No, a thin coat of bluing is applied at the factory but I have seen instances where it is excessive.  If you don't have a Dremel, just use an Exacto or other sharp knife point; roll the wheel with your finger while keeping the point against the tread of the wheel and scrape some of the bluing (and crud) off to expose the bare metal.  Scotchbrite on the wheels will take too long; a knife's point is much quicker.  You just have to do the center of the wheel tread, not the entire tread surface.

Also, what Chuck said about the collector spring and having a collector added to the other truck.

Best,

Dave

Clean your track, and wheels. Alcohol and ..no... with Q-tips on the wheels, scotch bright on the rails, wipe unpowered track with alcohol.

Cleaning the roller to roller axle area, and then re-oiling it has been suggested before on the sparking control issue too. Its normally a heavy draw on a strained contact that does it.

Excess blue doesn't sound too good for conductivity either. 

Dave & Adriatic, 

Thanks for the continued help. Tried scraping the wheels and rollers, a bit more oil, more track cleaning, etc. No change. I did manage to bend the copper tab to increase pressure on the roller. Despite the no change in sparking, it doesn't hurt to do that anyway! I did tape the whistle button down (my ears are still ringing!). It appears that sparking occurs mostly on the jointed track - not on the super long straight sections although there is some. Perhaps that track, which has been taken apart and put together plenty of times is due for replacement. I did run it on my other loop that has newer track with tight connections and still see some fireworks. 

SJC,

You'll have to explain "taping the whistle button down"; I'm confused...

Regarding your 0-27 track; you can tighten up the track connections with a pair of needle nose pliers.  Just push the pliers into the end of the track - the area between the rounded upper part and the flattened part that is held by the ties until the fit is snug then push about 1/16 to 1/8 inch more and clamp down.  The idea here is NOT to collapse the round opening where the track pin goes in; just reduce the round opening SLIGHTLY.  For the ends that already have a track pins in them; remove the pins with your pliers and repeat the proceedure as you did for the "female" ends of the track.  Now, reinsert the pins.  I've found that if you've re-crimped the pin end correctly, you'll have to lightly tap the pins in with your closed pliers.  Or, use a very small hammer

BTW, if while doing this major renovation, you hands get dirty; your track wasn't clean to begin with... just sayin'.

Best,

Dave

Dave,

Thanks again. Appreciate your time and input here. 

I just took a piece of tape and slapped it over the button to hold it down (blowing the whistle) while I walked around to make sure I wasn't missing any trouble spots. Nothing major..... 

I've tightened up more tube track than I care to remember...and ruined a few pieces as well by smashing the rails together! 

SJC,

Use the needle nose and tread lightly - you'll do fine!  No smashing allowed...

Best,

Dave

 There are hollow, and solid track pins. If the pins in your track are collapsing as you crimp, you have hollow ones. I'm not a fan of these at all, I have boyhood track from sets like this. Many have rusted away from the inside out for me, and they just don't seem to do real well. I changed them to solid pins, and while at it, cleaned the inside tube area a bit by gently-jamming a single bristle set from a wire "toothbrush" into the hole a million times) Running for a while with lots of draw (passenger cars?) you may be able to find weak ones by feeling joints for heat. Watch out, it can be blistering hot.

I have a set of dulled top cutters pliers (like side cutters/snips) that are heaven to do the whole crimp job with.

 All that said I have a couple of PW SW "sparkies" that the "light show" comes, and goes on?? They run fine.

Adriatic,

I agree with you about the PW "Sparkies" - Some of my best light shows come from the little Vulcan motorized units.  I love those little critters and try to "collect them all" as they say.

Best,

Dave

Dave/Adriatic

Thanks. Wasn't aware there were such things as hollow pins....guess you learn something new everyday. I can't recall any super hot joints but I'll double check. 

As for my engine, guess I'll just run it as-is. A few sparks does kind of bring me back to the "old days".......

If I starting being a honest to goodness "collector" more than the runner I am. Critters would likely be first. That was the first "completed" section of my Grandfathers collection. And though I owned more than my share as a boy, I wanted the v-plow bad, and rotary plow the next worst. The fire cars was the best critter ever! The hand pumper car flew. Like 150smph, but never seemed to derail.

 Worst sparky critters I remember in numbers: gang cars, trolleys, work platforms, or the executive inspection cars.

The worst sparky I ever saw was an early customized/detailed Williams chain drive AB.

I wasn't impressed, Grandpa was very impressed, and bought another. 

 PW Alco the worst for me though.

The coolest Sparky did it by design! Even with the power out.

The MARX Mercury streamliner, a windup!.

(I know I saw an electric one too! Plated front)