Lionel California Zephyr 18" Passenger cars 2-packs - photos

If Atlas is able to find a vendor in China to make a correct CZ Train albeit it is taking five years,then Lionel should be able to do the same for such an Iconic train.As for the 18in car length I think that is all that 072 curves will support and even at that the overhang is noticeable,I run 096 curves and they still overhang.At the Atlas seminar at York Jerry Kimble said we would see the Observation cars in December that would be a great Christmas gift.Lionel gets away with it because we are willing to buy a flawed product.

Mikey

From what I have seen on this message board, paint appears to be the most disappointing of all the issues.

And for the up coming new releases, this will continue to be a very damaging issue, resulting in lost sales to Lionel.

Going forward, how will Lionel marketing look at future passenger car releases? If these new cars do not sell well, does it send a message to Lionel that the hobby is NOT interested in new or more passenger cars, so maybe Lionel does not build any more. Or do they re-think the issue, read all these postings and take a serious look at the way they do future releases.

If polished chrome is too costly, and their decision was to keep costs down, then why didn't they paint the cars with the Stainless Steel look that Atlas O Gauge has on their CZ cars, or the way Broadway Limited did to their HO version of the CZ cars? I have a complete set of Broadway Limited HO CZ cars and one of the Atlas O gauge cars in my collection. These plastic finished cars are superior to any of the brass stainless steel CZ cars that I have seen, or own.

I know that the process might be more expensive that just painting them DULL silver, but for me, the dull finish is a total turn off. Should these have been painted in a glossy silver instead? Perhaps. A few more O gaugers "might" reconsider purchasing these had they been in a painted glossy finish.

PTC: It is most likely too late to change the paint finish, but perhaps on future releases, maybe you can get Lionel to correct this, through your contects. A couple years ago, Walthers came out with a beautiful F7 (HO) stating that each road was correctly detailed. The CB&Q version had hand rails on the wrong side. We (BRHS members) sent emails to Walthers about this and they had it corrected, sent new shells to those of us that purchased the model and told us to keep the original shells. I don't think Lionel will do that, but perhaps they will correct the paint for the future, especially for your Walbash.

Ray

Bottom line. We had high expectations for this set given Lionels previous performance on some sets and the real train represented here. Lionel has failed us miserably. And they took 2 extra years to make such a sorry showing. They can and must do better if they wiskh to sell the other sete in the catalog. Did they change vendors or designers? This will not depart the station

"PTC: It is most likely too late to change the paint finish, but perhaps on future releases, maybe you can get Lionel to correct this, through your contects. A couple years ago, Walthers came out with a beautiful F7 (HO) stating that each road was correctly detailed. The CB&Q version had hand rails on the wrong side. We (BRHS members) sent emails to Walthers about this and they had it corrected, sent new shells to those of us that purchased the model and told us to keep the original shells. I don't think Lionel will do that, but perhaps they will correct the paint for the future, especially for your Walbash.

Ray"

No way of knowing this now. I am just one small voice and others have to make up their minds as to whether they like this finish well enough to buy it. I will point out to Howard Hitchcock how I feel about this. Typically in business how customers react to this with their orders or lack thereof will have an influence on future offerings. 

Based on the negative feedback here, we may very well see these Lionel CZ cars being blown out in a few months -- not that that's a good solution, mind you.  It's just that companies today tend to think that money solves all problems.  And somewhere out there, somebody may buy these cars at the right price.  Sometimes, I'm not so sure though.  Case in point:  I have a MINT 6-car Pennsy heavyweight set with the yesteryear charm of passenger silhouettes that I can't seem to give away over on the OGR for-sale sub-form. 

The next Lionel aluminum passenger set due out is reported to be the N&W Pocahontas.  That too has been delayed numerous times in 2+ years, and whether it actually shows up this year remains to be seen... although the shipping schedule does show Dec 2014 and Charles Ro's website indicates an ETA of 12/10/2014 (which is typically more consistent with a late November shipment from Lionel, but deliveries seem to occur more frequently as the year winds to a close).

This set should be the handsome maroon paint scheme common on N&W passenger trains, and the illustrations show skirted cars.  So it will be interesting to see how they are actually produced.  If these cars ride high off the rails, then consider that set another missed mark, since the accompanying 611 has already been sitting in a NC warehouse for months SANS whistle-steam.    Another marketing miss-step... but at least that's been corrected with newer steam locomotive releases.

Depending upon how the N&W set arrives may determine if I ultimately cancel my order for the 18" MKT "Texas Special" cars -- also currently catalog'd with lower profile skirts.  That set has a Nov 2014 ETA on the Lionel shipping schedule, but I think we all know that's a bogus date, and more realistically that set may ship mid- to late-2015.  Perhaps by then Lionel will get the message that we'll only accept passenger cars as they were last produced in the 2005-2010 timeframe with the added benefit of LED lighting now.  Anything less would be completely unacceptable. 

It's been rumored that Lionel has had issues finding a suitable aluminum passenger car supplier of late.  And quite frankly, it they can't at least make the cars the way they were produced 5-10 years ago, then they shouldn't make them at all.  If enthusiasts accept this poor example of 2014 aluminum car production, then we have nobody to blame but ourselves for accepting shoddy products... Lionel branded or not.

David

As has been already said, there are things that could be overlooked on these cars, but not having a domed observation car is not one of them.  That is the signature car of the California Zephyr.  If Lionel is going to make one they should change the name of the cars to something else.  While there may be Lionel fans that don't care, it is an insult to anyone that tries to model real trains with any degree of accuracy.

Art

Damage control plan:  blow them out with Lionel Lines plaques instead of CZ.  

David

quote:

Lionel gets away with it because we are willing to buy a flawed product.

I feel for you CZ guys, but, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a fix. With as much fuss that has been raised, Lionel still hasn't corrected those stick on windows where the green shows around the edges and lets the green light out in the dark. On the other hand, what are you going to do when so many people say "I don't care, it's Lionel, so it has to be great"?

I wish that Lionel would man up and admit that they made a mistake and hire someone that cares enough to do things the right way...the FIRST time!

Maybe this thread will be a WAKE UP call!

This has certainly reinforced my determination to never pre-order anything!  I'll wait until I can see what's really made.

Ah yes, "BTO" rearing its ugly head again!

These cars weren't BTO, but the taste it leaves in folks' mouths regarding sight-unseen pre-orders is not a good one.  And this doesn't bode well for the real BTO items.  That's not to say the sky is falling... just that you'd think Lionel would hit a few home runs early in the game rather then wait 'till the bottom of the ninth inning to start a rally.  

The best recommendation for the BTO conundrum is to pre-order from a large enough dealer that doesn't have cancellation penalties.  Or take your chances and order FAST once a product ships and you like what you see.  A few of the dealers I've purchased from over the years have ordered "extra" BTO items beyond their customer-backed pre-orders. So it takes away the urgency of needing to pre-order sight unseen.

The devil is always in the details with this kind of stuff.  You don't want to abuse the ability to cancel a pre-order, but you shouldn't accept something when it's not right either.  After all, everyone in the supply chain is making money on the product except the consumer.  

David

Wow • All looks good from my side of the tracks. 

Cheers from the Detroit & Mackinac Railway 

Gary, after seeing these turds in the flesh, I can promise that there's nothing good about them in the sense that they replicate the California Zephyr. They are well crafted, have nicely detailed trucks, Lionel's great packaging, and all that bull-roar, but sadly, it stops there. they are a complete miss.

Alternate Damage Control Plan: Weather them and charge even more money for them in the next catalog.

Here's what a company dealing in fantasy does with them.

Bruce

I'll have to agree with the overall consensus that these are rather poorly-rendered representations of CZ passenger cars for all the reasons already stated.

Having said that, I've seen worse.  The Daylight Cab Forward comes to mind.  

You guys have made a lot of noise about these.  I am collecting the Atlas 21" ones and they are real nice.  However, I also have the Lionel Wabash on order.  We will see!  

"Having said that, I've seen worse.  The Daylight Cab Forward comes to mind."

Let's see John, we have "T" minus 35 days and counting until these beauties hit the streets. I know you can't wait to see the flood of photos that will show up on the Forum with all of the happy new owners. I am told by very reliable sources that even Santa has given the Daylight Cab Forwards his "seal of approval" as we all know that he loves "Fantasy".

Then after you weather them sell them on Ebay in the Lionel store....

Hmm is all lost with these? Was there a tool change that eliminated the skirts?

Will all future cars have the missing skirts? If so the older releases are going to be worth even more $$$.

Unfortunately, Lionel never seems to comment on these issues officially.  So we're only left to wait out the next release to see product that's actually delivered. 

Next up for aluminum passenger cars is reportedly the N&W Pocahontas set due this year yet -- probably in December.  That should give us some indication of actual production vs. the catalog illustration (which, by the way, indicates skirted cars for the Pocahontas train).  Whereas the 2012 Vol 1 catalog depicted both skirted and skirt-less cars for the CZ.

After the Pocahontas set hits the street, I think we'll be well into 2015 before Lionel ships passenger cars again.  I have an MKT Texas Special 18" 6-car set on order, which Lionel's latest shipping schedule says March 2015.  But honestly, I'm expecting the set to ship much later in the year.  The catalog shows skirted cars (with full diaphragms)... but if they're delivered w/o skirts (like the CZ cars), I'm cancelling the order. 

It's really very simple.  Either it's built as advertised... or I won't accept delivery.

David

I wonder if Lionel will have any of these "on sale" at their open house warehouse event in NC this weekend???    If not, perhaps next year's event... branded with the Lionel Lines plaque. 

David

Wow, just plan wow..... what a total failure by Lionel the list of issues with these is almost as long as this thread.

A couple points:

1) Having been a partner in an import firm for a number of years, production issues are with the importer (LIONEL) not with the factory. At multiple steps along the way samples are produced, approved, and then moved to production, even at completion cartons are opened and inspected before being sent for export, someone -- either a Lionel employee or their contracted inspectors saw and approved these before the left the factory. This nonsense about the Chinese doing X,Y, & Z, leaving the poor Lionel holding the bag is bull, they are not victims they are knowing accessories.

2) There is an expectation that a product purchased will function as advertised and match descriptions and images used in advertising, in many places this is also a legal requirement. I cannot market something called a "toaster" but when it arrives does not in fact allow you to make toast or looks materially different than as pictured -- for example looks stainless and arrives white plastic. Has we move towards a BTO world, the images and descriptions within the catalogs are binding upon the seller -- says it will have whistle steam than then doesn't, is shown as a pre-production sample in a plated finish and arrives painted, etc., break any legal agreement between buyer and seller. The obligation to purchase something materially different than as advertised is no longer binding, unless one accepts the changes either via prior notice. To those concerned about sticking it to their LHS, the LHS should review their purchase agreements with Lionel, as material changes are major issue which should result in the LHS being able to dump unacceptable goods back on the importer.

On more specific level, having dealt with this before, if one makes purchases with their American Express card, and the items arrives not as described (in the case of these cars, there is list of material differences) American Express will have the funds back to you within hours, someone will be left holding the bag, but it won't be you. I find it unacceptable to receive a product which doesn't function or is not as advertised, and I can assure you that as a business owner, neither does the vast majority of the American buying public -- it has to be right and right the first time.

I dunno, it seems to be a pretty good cartoon.  Plus, the finish is correct and it IS a domed observation.

Rusty

But it was the kid's parents forking over the money...

Rusty

I stopped at the Lionel booth at TrainFest today in Milwaukee.  I asked if they were aware of the controversy regarding their new California Zephyr cars.  They said you mean about the paint jobs?  I said yes, but I was most concerned about the fact that we were hearing that it would not have a dome observation.  Matt said that he thought that it was a poor picture in the catalog and that they would have a dome observation.  He said he wasn't 100% sure but that was his understanding.  I told him it the signature car for this train and I felt that it very important.  He did not disagree.

Art

Art, very interesting feedback.  And puzzling too.  

The catalog illustrations are very inconsistent at best.  Some cars have skirts... Others don't.  The 4-pack cars have full diaphragms illustrated, but both 2-packs have narrow vestibule/diaphragms On the cars.  The observation clearly has no dome illustrated, rather it has an antenna structure running the length of the car. 

For those who purchased this set, I sure hope Lionel ultimately produced the observation with a dome.  But hearing conflicting information doesn't bolster lots of consumer confidence.

I guess all this just points to the fact that importers really don't have a firm, authoritative handle on what's being produced overseas.  Perhaps we won't know for sure until the 4-packs arrive here in the States.  And if that's the case, then something's definitely amiss in Lionelville.

David

It looks like the Lionel passenger cars are the very general standard design of cars that are done in many different road names.

Pity they are not a bit more detailed.

You can always go with the Atlas scale set they look pretty sharp and are correct to scale.

I have the old K-Line full length passenger set in bright chrome finish they look great when running a long string of cars.

The reason no skirts is that on the real cars the skirt has no cut out for the trucks , it goes straight across the bottom if I am not mistaken .I doubt you can make a car like this and have it clear 036 track.

But here is a Burlington car with no skirts .

Maybe this was the pilot model ?

These photos courtesy of Fallen Flags website for reference in this post and no other use by me .

Hopefully they get corrected or if they are blown out , skirts could be fabricated .

In Lionels defense , the majority of their customer base uses the traditional tubular or fast track small radius curves so this is why no correct skirting .

This is just pure speculation on my part and nothing else . And no offense directed at anyone . I am a 2 rail TMCC operator and love all that Lionel does with the sound and their offerings of diesels and cars , they make a little for everyone , a tough crowd to please .

Possible, but Lionel makes 15" (and smaller) passenger cars for that crowd.  The 18" cars, while not 100% scale, are directed toward enthusiasts whose layouts have a bit more real estate than those utilizing O-36 curves.

David

My 2 cents.......these cars are not very good looking and sort of hideous.  The lack of skirts and crappy exterior finish are the real killers for these cars.

Just now I was comparing them to a Lionel set from the 90's...........aluminum extruded.......shiny but attractive. yep they even have skirts and fairly interesting truck detail.  These CZ's that are the topic of this thread are poor representations.

On top of poor Lionel quality control...I see a trend here.....and I am a Lionel guy.

Under the vestibule of the ex-Burlington car, there is still a well for the retractable stairway.  The Lionel car lacks even that, making it look even more ungainly.

Unfortunately, a prototype image of Burlington car that's undergone modifications after it was out of service, apparently owned by a private operator, and sitting unrestored at a museum or equipment broker, is still not representative of Burlington cars in service or cars the CZ.  And it can vary from car to car during its afterlife.

Burlington Budd cars matched the CZ in terms of full skirting when in service. 

If Lionel had at least modeled the skirting with cut outs for the trucks, the car would be more acceptable in that respect.

The irony of all this-they may be collectible in the future. Odd ball items tend to do that.

yeah but I am done with ugly collectable odd balls... I am not here to make money and leave them in the box. Nobody wants to hear the story and see them on a shelf like a museum. The younger kids just do not appreciate it anymore.

Because of this, I have move on to "running the wheels off of them"!

You can't take 'em with you.

If this would be the eventual outcome, then I foolishly returned my future fortune back to the retailer. To call this set a dog would be an insult to my best friend.

I couldn't agree with you more.  I'd rather have what I want. 

Speaking of irony...  I suppose it's still quite possible that Lionel is noticeably quiet on the  CZ front, because they KNOW the observation has been produced with a dome.  And they're just waiting for release of the 4-pack to tell us a "ye of little faith" story.  Of course that won't change the painted finish issue... Nor the missing side-skirts... Nor the fact that some cars were catalog'd with full diaphragms and others with narrow ones.

Oh never mind... I guess it's just wishful thinking for those of you who have them on order.  I'm trying... anyway.  

David