Lionel California Zephyr 4-Pack - Photos

Thanks for the pictures.  They look really nice!  While I would have also liked the shinny finish better, they seem to look like the finish  on the Atlas cars that so many are excited about.

I hope you get a favorable solution to your displeasure.

Happy railroading,

Don

Literally and figuratively on top of everything else, Lionel has mounted flat pane Pullman style domes on what was arguably Budd's greatest train!?

Brings to mind the old military acronym, SNAFU.

Huh, guess it makes me happy I stayed with the original 1993 California Zephyr set. Sure, they're out of scale, but at least they look nicer.

As I have said elsewhere, this is really hard to understand. 

After a two-year delay, what a total mess!!!  I'd be completely embarrassed if I were the product manager for this project.

Amidst everything else that's already been mentioned in other threads... the dome cars have skirts, but the other cars don't?  What's that all about?  

Anybody who's pre-ordered future Lionel 18" passenger cars is gonna be stopped dead in their tracks after seeing this disaster -- especially if the upcoming N&W Pocahontas cars follow in the same footsteps.  Scary to say the least.  

David 

Well, what we have here is a late 50's/ early 60's train with skirtless and a few skirted cars and with an odd combination of full diaphragms. I could live with the paint if it is all consistent and even the stick -on windows, but the wrong domes too? Nothing is right at all. This set really requires a very stretchy imagination to even get the feel of the train ...ok its silver and it says CZ but that's about it!

Peter

Just my opinion,

Lionel's building of these Cal Zephyr Cars is not only a travesty, but also as Os3r put it, a "SNAFU"....

I hope Lionel, will concede/ acknowledge that they made a huge mistake with the Cal Z Cars, and offer to fully refund anyone who purchased these cars.  I was contemplating buying these Cars, but upon seeing these images, there is no way in this world I would put them on my layout, even if Lionel gave them to me for free.

All you guys are going to give them back and twenty years from now they'll be the most sought after collectible in lionel history??

I doubt it.

Settle down boys, they're only toys.

One has to ask:  WHY????

Maybe the designers just copied this old MTH set:

Flat dome

No dome observation car

My thanks as well for posting the pictures.  Given how poor the rendition was in the catalog,which was before "BTO",  this type of issue should give us some concern on ordering anything BTO that we are uncertain regarding how it will look like the when finally built.  

The only message Lionel will understand is when we dont buy,otherwise they will continue their ways especially with BTO and we are giving front money,then what.

Mikey

"Settle down boys, they're only toys."

while this is true, when a manufacturer purports to make a specific train, there should be a reasonable effort to produce a representative facsimile. This has too many things wrong and some of them (No dome observation) are major. I am a Lionel fan, but I can't defend this. 

I also appreciate you showing them.  Judging from the coupler position, I suspect the diaphragms don't exactly close the gap between cars?  It really is hard to understand what R&D was thinking when they dreamed up this set.

Bruce

I'm not paying a dime for deposits on pre-orders.  Both the dealer network and Lionel stand to make profits on these goods, so I'll let them deal with the fall-out if something isn't made correctly.  And most of the reputable dealers are more than happy to run the interference for their clients when something as bad as this happens. 

Nope... no down-payment money here on the BTO stuff... ESPECIALLY in light of what happened here (which was pre-BTO, but just doesn't bode well for BTO). 

David

The 4 pak is as heidous as the two pak. Lionel should be ashamed of the effort they did on the CZ set.

Bummer, glad I did not pre-order the set. I could live with all the snafus if the set at least looked like chrome finish.

Good grief, not only the wrong style dome, (unless it was CB&Q's "Silver Dome" pattern dome car) but they couldn't even be consistent.  The dome is skirted and the other cars not skirted. 

Rusty

Lionel can do it so right on some products and so wrong on others, as David says, who ran this project? I would send them back and save the money for another day for trains done right. As someone else said, it will teach them a valuable leason hopefully.

Sad.

Chugman posted a comment on another thread about a long time Lionel fan who had just received his 4-pack of this CZ set. When Art asked this individual about the lack of a dome on the Observation Car, the collector had not noticed it or apparently did not care about this omission. Then Art asked about the finish and the collector mentioned it bothered him a bit, but apparently not enough to return this set.

It will be interesting to see how the market in actuality reacts. Will the market find buyers like Art's friend or will they find an unattractive market. Time will tell.

My associate feels $1,280 list price for 6 passenger cars moves them out of toys.

(And she's sure some accuracy to the prototype is required at that price point)

Just to expand on this friend of mine.  He bleeds orange and blue and owns nothing else.  He can tell you just about anything you want to know about Lionel's products and history, but very little about prototype railroads  He was startled to hear that there was a controversy about these cars as he thinks they look pretty good.  He wasn't wild about the painted finish, but loved the diaphragms and truck details.  When he bought the CAZ passenger cars, his dealer asked if he want the new Big Boy?  He is not into articulated steam engines but after the dealer told him it was Lionel's masterpiece, he said O.K. and ordered one.  It won't run on his layout so maybe he will bring it over for a test run at my house?

Art

Interesting is the only dome car has skirts? I guess for an O 27 set these would be ok. But for a scale representative passenger set... argh... what a disaster. Well only one use for these...

J Daddy - That is really funny, but I would worry that I would ruin my wood chipper.

Art

I would love to be a fly on the wall at Lionel right now listening to what the "boys" are saying about all these discussions regarding their CZ car blunder. Who is in hot water? 

With all these discussions, I wonder if Lionel is saying "What great PR we are getting, even though it is negative".

Or are they turning their back saying "these are toys, not scale models" or are they saying "last time we do any Burlington/DRG/WP models" or perhaps they are saying, "lets bring in a ton more of these cars painted for Amtrak, UP, Penn, NYC, GN, Pepsi and in NFL/NHL/MLB themes". 

What they really need to say is that they made a mistake, a huge mistake. Yes these are toys, and Lionel and others bring out models that are anything but prototypical: Monopoly box cars, a Christmas PIONEER ZEPHYR, etc.

But when Lionel indicated that they are doing a specific prototype model, WE expect it to be close to what the full size version looks like. WE do not expect Lionel products to be 100% dead on, after all a fully scaled CZ car with full skirting would require what, 120 inch curves? So partial skirting is OK. Flat paint and no dome observation is NOT ACCEPTABLE PERIOD!

So NVisich, let us know what Lionel has to say when you call them on this.

RAY

You left out NASCAR...

Rusty

makes me glad that i model eastern roads and that i buy the 3rd rail/ggd cars. i can see why most people are unhappy with Lionel's job on these. maybe they should think about buying some pictures of the prototype before they go into development of a project.

They don't need to even do that; plenty enough prototype pictures of the CZ are just a Google search away.

These cars here are the Super chief 15" cars made in 2003.

So why 11 years later they can't do the CZ close to being correct, especially the finish and the skirting. Of course the domes also.

My "free, unsolicited advice" to Lionel would be to do the following:

1. Admit that they dropped the ball on this one and apologize.  Give as much detail as they are comfortable so we understand what happened.

2. Offer a full refund to anyone that wants one.

3. Make a domed observation available as either a replacement or an add-on.

4. Demonstrate that their customer's trust is more important to them than the profit or loss on one passenger car set.

I am a big Lionel fan and only say all this as a suggestion to help put this behind them.

Art

I am no longer going to pre-order for a different reason, that I can easily find anything I pre-order at a lower price once it is released.

As far as expensive toys for boys...well, if your gonna sell a "toy" for several hundred dollars on up, it had better be as advertised and correct.

The CZ set and the Lionel BTO system highlights something that is being missed. It is the fact that if you deal with a reputable dealer, you have little to worry about. This speaks volumes as to why it is important to work with a dealer you trust and who has a track record of supporting their customers. You can count on them for giving you a competitive price and having your back at all times.

No, the problems with the CZ will not stop me from ordering with using the BTO system because I have a dealer that I can count on. I suggest that this is the best method to avoid problems.

I'd be surprised if Lionel makes any statement on the condition of this set.  They may sell lots of these sets and not have a worry about a set they didn't advertise as a prototypical train, in spite of it's name.

I suspect there are more train buyers like Art's friend who doesn't know or care what a prototype looks like, than those of us who desire a scale, prototypically correct model of an iconic passenger train.

And even with correct domes and skirting and finish, they'd still be 18" cars.

I am afraid to say it but here goes...

With Lionel's flood of low cost RTR starter sets, that have no need for Lionel to worry about being  prototypical or even 25% accuracy on the prototypes...if at all...

And...the fact that just like manufacturing...I am sure even design and project management has gone to China as well.

Either way, Lionel whether they be American or Chinese just does not care.

The fact that they just opened a store in NC(?) specializing in all things Nascar, tells you where their priorities are, i.e. anything from NASCAR, NFL, MLB, Polar Express, Aliens, Peanuts, Halloween, etc etc etc...Lionel loves all those non prototype themes, i.e. fantasy themes..they just get some artsy fartsy designer to make sure they adhere to licensing and they are done!

Lionel probably looks at us rivet counters or even the medium to high end product customer as a pain in the you know what...and Lionel just wants to make simple non prototypical , easy to design and make items like RTR and LionChief.

If us adults don't want a RTR set we will just have to get it BTO as to not inconvenience Lionel with accuracy.

Or better yet, go bother Weaver, 3rd Rail, etc etc.

The good employees who try to listen to our input, put forth the great plans, only to cringe when they see its implementation....by then the Board of Directors or whomever is the culprit probably snickers and hopes the good employee and us rivet counting customers just go away now, as you see what you asked for and look what you got...then thinking...

heh, they wont ask us for that again...

it just sometimes seems this way.

Well, sounds like just another small snafu and setback...reminds me though of the recent fiasco regarding the Lionchief Plus steam locomotives that I purchased because they were being advertised with a Minimum Curve: 027. In addition to the print media, it was stated...even touted on video...by one of the Lionel representatives, at the fall 2013 York Week, that "It will run on 027 track, the lowest radius that we have...all the way up...so that makes it applicable to ALL of the layouts that are out there...or even just a loop around the Christmas tree." If you check the major vendor and dealer web sites...EVEN TODAY...they still show under features, Minimum Curve: 027. Lionel did update their own web site to show Minimum Curve: 031, when it was brought to their attention by me that there were issues when operating solely on an 027 layout...and they too at that time were advertising and showing 027 as the minimum curve. Apparently, they have not alerted their vendors or dealers to the change? Might be construed by some as false advertising? I'm not an attorney...but it is possible. Not fulfilling promised warranty obligations...breach of contract? Again, not an attorney...but again possible. When I was finally able to get warranty service on one of my Lionchief Plus steam locomotives...it was a total of six (6) weeks turnaround including shipping...and when it arrived, the front wheels and axles were off the truck and laying in the bottom of the box. Now with some of you upper end product buyers getting stung...it appears, in my opinion, that it's just "business as usual" with Lionel LLC. Oh, and has anyone seen one of those Lionchief Plus RS-3 Diesels lately???

One of you guys said earlier, Lionel looks as the forum or rivet counters as pains in the neck, guess what they do. As some of you may remember Lionel opened those Christmas stores 4 years ago. I worked at the store in White Plains from opening to closing, about 30 hours a week. I was on the phone with Lionel daily ordering more trains daily. We sold a lot of sets, from Nov 15 to December 28, we sold approx. 300 NYC Flyers, 425 Polar Express sets and 300 other assorted sets. Along with everything else. The store was cleaned out!! The Lionel guys was at our store every couple of days and we talked about this same thing and he thought the same. We are a pain in the neck for a very low return!!! And by the way, Moms buy what is "cute"...And moms bought twice as many sets as did dads!!

Sad and pathetic...and basically what I suspected.

Bruce

Ouch...huge ouch!