My E7 AA spins her tires on a 1% grade. Probably the wisdom of only one motor and 4 drive wheels with limited bonnet clearance. sigh....
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The fix is simple...
My uncle's MKT E8s do just fine up his 1% grade with 7 Lionel passenger cars in tow.
Very sad. I had the Texas Special E-8 (or was it a 7?), which was one of the first Legacy engines Lionel brought out. It wouldn't do a 2% grade with the purchased passenger cars. Really very annoying because it was primo set and primo price and done on the cheap. I got rid of it.
Gerry
Volphin posted:My E7 AA spins her tires on a 1% grade. Probably the wisdom of only one motor and 4 drive wheels with limited bonnet clearance. sigh....
The second release of the PA's with Legacy had the same issue. Can you add some weights to the powered unit chassis?
I have a set of earlier Legacy PRR E7's and they pull fine, but the later E8/E9's I have seen cannot pull their shadows.
The sad part is I have an MTH PS-1 ABA that has two motors per engine and it can pull down a tree. It's great when I want to run conventional... but that is rarely.
BigJohn&theWork posted:The fix is simple...
If only they made them in my livery. 
One motor? Which set is this?
That stinks. I hope the upcoming release of the Lionel E8s don't have that problem especially at the prices they want.
This isn't new. The E-7s were reported poor pullers when they came out. Is this a new release or older?
Lionel's 6-39600 PRR E8 set from 2013 has no issues with pulling power or grades. On the club layout, it pulls ten 18" passenger cars without an issue, including the long 2% grade. It's a powered and dummy, it's hard to believe that they changed the design so much that newer models don't have decent pulling power.
The Vision Line Genset has a single motor, yet it's a pretty decent puller. It has no issue with 20 freight cars up a 2% grade, didn't miss a beat.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Lionel's 6-39600 PRR E8 set from 2013 has no issues with pulling power or grades. On the club layout, it pulls ten 18" passenger cars without an issue, including the long 2% grade. It's a powered and dummy, it's hard to believe that they changed the design so much that newer models don't have decent pulling power.
The Vision Line Genset has a single motor, yet it's a pretty decent puller. It has no issue with 20 freight cars up a 2% grade, didn't miss a beat.
John, my specific AA is the 6-82833. I have a video of the traction wheels lifting off the track and stalling the engine. It does this at >> and lower speeds. I suppose I could change out the traction tires, but it seems to me it should have two motors in the powered unit at the very least.
That's the problem with AA, AB, or ABA sets that contain only 1 powered engine.Limited pulling power, especially on a grade. Cram some stick on weights in there where ever you can, and put new tires on. The weight is obviously a permanent solution, while you will still go through tires if the train is too heavy.
I also remove the rollers from my dummy engines to eliminate as much drag as possible, and make sure the axles are well lubricated. The dummy engine can create a significant amount of drag....make sure it rolls freely.
Blind drivers also suck....if one of the 3 axles is not contacting the rail, it allows the other 2 axles to lift. It doesn't matter whether that blind axle is "powered" or not, it's pointless if it's not on the rails.
Volphin. All Lionel E units have "dual motors with momentum flywheels"
There is one over each truck. What you are experiencing is probably the way the motors are synced electronically.
John can elaborate better but the lead truck in either direction will be more inclined to spin if the opportunity arises.
Having said all that . I have previously owned a set of tmcc e7's and f'7s and the e's lacked the heavy die-cast fuel tank that made the f's noticeably heavier, and better pullers.
Only one motor is locked in speed, typically the trailing motor. If it is spinning free, there is no torque on the lead motor as it's getting minimal voltage. There is no ready solution to this issue, other than having both motors with speed control.
Another problem is uneven trackwork. If the approach to the grade is not done properly, or you have "lumpy" trackwork, the one set of synchronized wheels can lift, then you experience what you describe.
Some locomotives are more prone to this than others as well. I've noticed the Lionmaster T1 Duplex seems especially susceptible to a similar issue on uneven track.
Someone mentioned the Legacy PAs above having issues with pulling. How were they different from their TMCC counterparts?
I had the Santa Fe's and they were missing the MARS light that the TMCC model had.
I slightly reworked the transition and it is behaving much better now. I still don't understand why the rear powered truck would not push it through though.
It's really simple, if the truck that has the Odyssey speed sensor loses traction and spins, that reduces the torque to both motors. The Odyssey just tries to keep that motor at the set speed, the other motor simply tags along as it is wired in parallel. If the speed controlled motor is spinning freely, you'll have no torque on the other motor.
You can demonstrate this for yourself, just slightly lift the end of the powered unit that has the Odyssey sensor equipped motor so it runs free. You'll find that there is almost no effort to hold the unit stopped as there is very little voltage to the motors.
gunrunnerjohn posted:It's really simple, if the truck that has the Odyssey speed sensor loses traction and spins, that reduces the torque to both motors. The Odyssey just tries to keep that motor at the set speed, the other motor simply tags along as it is wired in parallel. If the speed controlled motor is spinning freely, you'll have no torque on the other motor.
You can demonstrate this for yourself, just slightly lift the end of the powered unit that has the Odyssey sensor equipped motor so it runs free. You'll find that there is almost no effort to hold the unit stopped as there is very little voltage to the motors.
So it needs a locker. LOL
Sure, just put a set of gears between the two motors and all is well. 
The more practical electronic solution would be speed sensing on both motors and just apply power until the slower one matches the commanded speed. One could typically assume that the one that's going faster is probably spinning freely and isn't developing traction.
I learned something new today about this - Thanks John!
Try running the AA set backwards - with the powered unit pushing the dummy. See if that works better.
If possible try switching trucks around. Put the driving truck up front. I've changed traction tired wheels this way and resulted with great improvement. Front wheel drive cars have more traction than rear wheel cars.
Rod Miller
romiller49 posted:If possible try switching trucks around. Put the driving truck up front. I've changed traction tired wheels this way and resulted with great improvement. Front wheel drive cars have more traction than rear wheel cars.
Rod Miller
If you're speaking of front wheel drive automobiles, isn't the reason for the increased traction because of the weight of the engine and transmission being concentrated above the driven wheel (wheels)?
How does that translate to a model locomotive which presumably has no great weight differential between ends?
Yet another benefit to the 3rd Rail horizontal drive with its only one motor. If you're looking to add weight, I've been using plaster and drywall to make molds for custom shaped weights then I fill them with lead shotgun shot and melt it with a torch. You can get much more weight in a loco when you can make the to form around stuff inside
Probably mentioned above (so many words; I've had a long, tiring day), but spinning is an adhesion issue, not a power issue. Adhesion is function of number of driven wheels and weight on drivers.
Most - certainly many - layout issues are layout issues, not equipment issues.
Ah, the "single motor/driveshaft thing" - I have had only failures with these - Lionel S2 Alco (so bad and often repaired that it is now a gutted gummy), and a brass 3rd Rail Dash-9 - failed driveshaft connections during initial ERR upgrade testing. Postponed - probably abandoned. Good-looking, repainted corpse.
Back to my steamers. And "China drive" diesels/electrics (didn't Lionel PW diesels/electrics have the same drive arrangement with AC motors...?), I guess. They seem more reliable - per my experience, and that's a fact.
I notice these E7s have Liondrive. With Liondrive the motor is fixed to the frame. The truck mount allows very little fore and aft tilt.
With most other "china" drive systems where the motor is fixed to the truck there is clearance, ok slop, that allows the motor and truck to tilt in the frame to better follow vertical transistions. I wonder of that is part or the problem?
Pete
The problem, at least IMO, is the fact that the trackwork allows the speed controlled truck to lift the traction tires. It's possible that the Liondrive contributes to this issue, however I suspect if the trackwork is well done and the grades have a gradual entry and exit slope, that the issue would be minimized or eliminated. I know several of my diesels with Liondrive have no issue hauling 35-40 cars up a long 2% grade, I don't see any hint of them losing traction or power. I just ran the new Legacy F40PH up the grade pulling a dozen 18" passenger cars today, there was no hint of any traction problems, it just chugged right up the hill and continued on.
Nick Chillianis posted:romiller49 posted:If possible try switching trucks around. Put the driving truck up front. I've changed traction tired wheels this way and resulted with great improvement. Front wheel drive cars have more traction than rear wheel cars.
Rod Miller
If you're speaking of front wheel drive automobiles, isn't the reason for the increased traction because of the weight of the engine and transmission being concentrated above the driven wheel (wheels)?
How does that translate to a model locomotive which presumably has no great weight differential between ends?
In my experience the motor trucks do better pulling the engine vs pushing the engine.
Rod Miller
Dummy diesels do nothing but look good without pulling their own weight. Just like a couple of relationships I remember from the old days. Just sayin'.
I try to have all powered units where possible now, but no less than 2 out of 3 or 3 out of 4. It's not just that the dummy provides a balanced powered set, most of the time they have no sound. There is nothing like two or three powered units with sound to make a great show. I cannot wait to get my sets of GGD F7's and Alco PA's. All powered. I wish Lionel would offer individual units. How many dummies would get sold? Not many.
Scrappy
gunrunnerjohn posted:Sure, just put a set of gears between the two motors and all is well.
The more practical electronic solution would be speed sensing on both motors and just apply power until the slower one matches the commanded speed. One could typically assume that the one that's going faster is probably spinning freely and isn't developing traction.
I wonder if it could be modified? How is speed sensing achieved?
Or I suppose I could buy another set, swap the shell from the un powered unit to my 2nd powered unit and do a MU of the A units with different Legacy IDs. 
The only practical way to integrate speed sensing on all motors is for the manufacturer to do it. It would have to be integrated into the speed control system. For a retrofit, it would be somewhat expensive and engineering intensive.
Speed control for Odyssey II (Lionel Legacy) is controlled by the RCMC using the input flywheel sensor. Adding a flywheel sensor to the other motor would require matching those speeds and picking the slower one in the scenario I envision. That "could" be done by bringing those flywheel sensor outputs into a small processor to select the tach value to send along to the RCMC. It would be an interesting experiment, but I think I'll pass that one on to the next guy. 
romiller49 posted:Front wheel drive cars have more traction than rear wheel cars.
Rod Miller
Maybe in snow Rod
Actually, FWD having more traction than RWD is really a myth. FWD cars are easier to control in slippery weather as the tendency to fishtail when the rear wheels break free isn't there. In my last house, I had a RWD Buick, and the neighbors on each side had FWD cars. When our driveways were snow covered (they were fairly steep), those two neighbors would back their FWD cars up the drive in order to make the grade as they wouldn't climb the hill forward. I just drove up mine the normal way.
In interesting article about FWD vs RWD. 
Volphin posted:BigJohn&theWork posted:The fix is simple...
If only they made them in my livery.
What livery are you looking for?
D500 posted:Probably mentioned above (so many words; I've had a long, tiring day), but spinning is an adhesion issue, not a power issue. Adhesion is function of number of driven wheels and weight on drivers.
Most - certainly many - layout issues are layout issues, not equipment issues.
Ah, the "single motor/driveshaft thing" - I have had only failures with these - Lionel S2 Alco (so bad and often repaired that it is now a gutted gummy), and a brass 3rd Rail Dash-9 - failed driveshaft connections during initial ERR upgrade testing. Postponed - probably abandoned. Good-looking, repainted corpse.
Back to my steamers. And "China drive" diesels/electrics (didn't Lionel PW diesels/electrics have the same drive arrangement with AC motors...?), I guess. They seem more reliable - per my experience, and that's a fact.
The 3rd Rail Dash-9 dates to 2006 and has a completely different drive than the one introduced with the E7 of 2011 and improved continuously from them on every project. Not a realistic comparison.
