Lionel E8

I guess maybe you should just throw it away.  Or give it away to some unknowing individual.  

Is a tenth of a an inch so great? Post a pic of the 3 models and lets see this huge difference.

David56

Welcome to the forum Portolaman.  .1 inches too narrow x48 would translate into about 5 inches too narrow at full scale?

This is why I believe there should be a "rivet counter" forum.  These are toy trains that run on 3 rail toy train tracks.  Engines have little plastic people driving them and they don't use coal or diesel fuel to operate, they use a toy train electric transformer. 

If you can't enjoy them as a toy train hobby then build your own trains.  Manufacturers are doing the best they can to please everyone but you know that is an impossible task.  If you don't like it don't buy it, don't look at it and don't criticize it.

Steve, Lady and Tex

This individual joined the OGR Forum in December 2008, and this is now his FIRST POST in almost 5 1/5 years? 

Reminds me of the story of little Bobby, who never uttered a word until at the age of 10 years old, the whole family was having Sunday supper at the big table. Bobby ate one fork full of mashed potatoes and suddenly said, "These mash potatoes taste LIKE CRAP!". The family was astounded,,,,,,finally his mother said, "Bobby, you haven't uttered a word in some ten years,,,,,,,WHY NOW?.  Bobby looked at her and said, "Up 'til now everything has been fine!".

Have you seen Rick Batista's photos and comments on the "Weekend Photo Fun" for this weekend. He is also planning to do a review on his website: toytrainsontracks.com

I agree it's a shame what they are doing with scale toy trains. I can't wait to get my E8 pre-order so that I can ruin my toy train layout with a less than scale engine.

Sorry guys, but I have to say portolaman does have a point. I think the odd thing he noticed and that I noticed as well is not that the body looks too narrow, but that the body does not match the shape and size of the pilot.   I first I thought the pilot was too wide, but now this thread would indicate the body is too narrow.  Either way the body and the pilot do not match up.  You can see this in the photos.  Is it a big problem? No.  Is it noticeable?  Yes.  This is one of the reasons I did not fix the pilot.  That's ok though because I did not buy this engine thinking it would be perfectly to scale.  It runs great, has awesome sounds and just a fun engine to run. 

 If you really want scale and perfection then you buy the 3rdRail engines like the PRR E7 on the left.  These engines are the best post war diesels I have by far.  The dimensions are correct, trucks are tucked in, fixed pilot, it runs smooth and has good sounds.  If 3rdRail offered an E8/9 I would have bought that instead. 

MTH also did a great job with their fixed pilot UP F-3 on the right.  If they offered a fixed pilot version if their PRR E8 I would have gone for that instead, not just because of the fixed pilot but also because they offer two powered engines for the same price. B.T.W. there is no way to fix the MTH E8 pilot yourself because the pilot extends back over the wheels prohibiting them from swinging on the turns.  I would need to use a different pilot.   

In short, these engines are not perfect but in my opinion they are the best E8/9 options available, and overall a good and fun engine to have.

Rich

Thanks for this discussion.  I'd rather know what I'm buying than be unpleasantly surprised.

Although I'm a bit disappointed that the E8/9 is a bit off, I'm not going to cancel my Wabash order.  If I there is ever a more accurate Wabash E, I'll upgrade.

Rich, do you think that there could be enough give in the pilot to put it into a vise and nudge it?  If the parts become available, it might be worth a try.

O gauge needs enough room for both toy train enthusiasts and modelers.  There isn't aren't enough consumers for one to live without the other.  I do get tired of each side bashing the other.  

Scale oriented modelers have only helped to bring about a better product.

For me, this is not a deal breaker. The Wabash units stay on order. I have waited a long time to get a Blue Bird set, so I can live with this.

I want to apologies for my comment on the side. I agree that it would be nice if they are going to re-tool for a scale engine then you would expect them to be accurate and to scale. I just have to remind myself that this is a toy but at the same time for $800 or more a pretty expensive toy that should be accurate to scale. It is fair to say that for less than $500 you would not expect the same level of accuracy. Rick thank you for the comparison I have been checking your website for a video or photos so thanks again. I can't wait to get my E8 but I will have to wait until the end of the month before I have the funds.

I'm not a rivet counter and not not as much "into" O-Gauge Railroading as most of you.  I only run 3 trains on a permanent basement layout maybe an hour a week.

But I have to say that Portolaman and Rich do make some good points regarding Lionel's new E8s.  If one is going to pay those kind of prices for a scale engine, then the whole unit should at least be scale.  Chalk this up as another mess-up from Lionel.

On a separate note, saw Union Pacific's Big Boy on display yesterday in Salt Lake City, and it was awesome.  Many of you have paid close to $2,000 for Lionel's "scale" example, but it was special to be able to see the real thing up close and personal.

Well this is why many of us are in O gauge now, as opposed to staying away in years past. "Scale" offerings from O gauge companies. I was never in this scale before because of the "toy train" approach. You read other threads in here about "Times Changing" and this hobby dying out.

All that for me is this "old head" attitude that is so present in this hobby, no matter what event or club you go to. I'm looked down upon all the time and asked if I even own any trains, or told how to use a Cab2 remote. There are many people in this forum alone that would not be in this hobby if it weren't for those "scale offerings" released by the different companies. Sometimes we end up buying the closest representative of a model we can find. Then the mistakes get pointed out. It has nothing to do with counting rivets, when mistakes are obvious in plain view. The scale ruler is not needed to see most of the mistakes. They get pointed out so others who may be on the fence will know before buying, and maybe so the manufacturers will listen and fix them later.

Scale equipment has revived this scale of model railroading with out a doubt. Take away all that stuff, and tell me what's left for us to stay in O scale. If you don't like to hear about the complaints from guys spending  hundreds and thousands of dollars on scale equipment, then just keep your toy trains under the Christmas tree and leave it to us in the younger generation to carry this hobby into the future.

Patrick you have nothing to apologize for! Many of us share the same opinion

I answered your identical post on the scale forum also.  I think your model is of an E9 if that makes any difference: frankly I don't know what the difference in the models E8 and E9 was but Lionel calls both the SP and UP locos E9s, so I will, too.

My UP E9s (6-39612) measure 2.5 inches through the body.  An MTh Premier F3 measures 2.55 at that same point.  The front pilot swings from side to side and looks dandy to me - I think it was deliberately made just slightly recessed (narrow) on purpose because it isn't fixed.  Regardless, I find the look good and any mis-match with reality quite acceptable.

The external difference between an E8 and an E9 was how the headlight glass was mounted:  Slightly recessed on the E8, flush on the E9 (and later retrofitted E8's.)  Not a really big spotting feature.

Internally: 567B engines @ 2250 h.p. vs. 567C engines @ 2400 h.p.

Rusty

Marker,

  I had the same thought, but no chance of compressing the pilot as is.  The top of the pilot has a solid metal plate.  You might be able to cut a slice down the middle of the plate to allow it to bend in. 

Patrick,

  I'm trying to do a video but its not looking good.  I just got freed up and I have lots of work to do on my website before I can update it.  I add a post here with a link if I get it done.

Rich

WOW......I did not know that "scale" operators rule the O gauge train hobby, a slight oversight on my part I guess.  I enjoy going to 2 rail O gauge layouts with true scale engines and rolling stock to enjoy that section of the hobby, most items are either kits or scratch built to true scale.  True scale O gauge clubs have been in existence for a long time, using 2 rail scale track, etc.  With toy train manufacturer's producing "scale" O gauge trains maybe the definition of "scale" to them might be different than yours based on their strategy of selling these trains to everyone who likes them.

I agree that the larger equipment has helped those who like scale or close to scale railroad operations, but to state "take away all that stuff and what's left for us to stay in O scale".....who said anything about taking away these items.  You are not the only O gauge operators who purchase the manufactured scale items.  I buy them along with others who just like what is being offered.  These trains are being produced for all of us not just you.

"Just keep your toy trains under the Christmas tree and leave it to us in the younger generation to carry on this hobby into the future" ???????? What? 

Do you forget that it was those of us "older" generation that carried the hobby through the demise of Lionel, into and through the MPC era and into today's offerings.  You don't think, non true scale O gauge hobbiest's won't be part of driving this hobby into the future?  Are you stating that the older generation which brought the hobby to this point is through, part of what you call a dying hobby?  Our influence is going forward through all those O gaugeers who operate Post War and other offerings by manufacturers no matter what size it is.

Steve, Lady and Tex 

I have to agree with laidoffsick  if not for the three rail makers making scale sized locomotives I would no longer be in the hobby. Of course I have no qualms if you 

like  to run toy trains either.

Run what you like but please don't criticize what others like to do. I like scale 3 rail and we will demand the 3 rail manufacturers get better. If they catalog a scale E8 then it should be right. I have seen the new E8's and E9's and at first look they are fine but measurements don't lie. 

You should be thankful manufacturer's are releasing scale items period.  I like other forum members have, in the past, asked Lionel in a respectful way, to make addition which we would like to see, but we do not "demand"it.  Maybe you should take this more gentle approach.  I also make contact with Lionel or Mth on a requested change or addition before posting these requests on the forum. 

As I said above, the E8's being released by Lionel are for everyone who likes the locomotive, not just scale people.  They are just fine with us, we appreciate the opportunity just to have them available.  You have to remember david, a lot of us older O gauger's were raised with smoke pellets and 31 in. radius track. 

Steve, Lady and Tex

And that right there is the "Attitude" I'm talking about.

A point I think a lot of people here are trying to say is that all models are inexact to some extent and its a personal judgement what is "enough" fidelity to the prototype.

They're models, and you never, ever, get any model 100% right.  All my life I have judged models by how close they come to getting it right. Perhaps this perspective distorts my judgement, but when I view every model as "failing" in its fidelity at some point, they are all alike, and it becomes a judgement for each of us about how much fidelity we want.  I think it is wrong for any person to say another's perspective is wrong here.  On the other hand, don't expect a major manufacturer to listen to the niche that wants as much accuracy as can be worked into O gauge.  Third rail does a pretty good job of that (I've got two, they are good models) and the size of their sales compared to Lionel's gives me an indication most folks are happy, as I am, with the accuracy that Lionel and MTH provide.

I grew up with O31 and smoke pellets also.  I am 60 years old.  How old do you need to be in the older O gauger's?  I know a lot of them are older than me.  Maybe we should take a poll on this topic.  It could be fun also.  

I received a used set in 1964 when I was 8, however, my engine was mcuh older and ran like the dickens.  

David56

Let's not forget that the 3-rail O-Gauge hobby is made up of several different types of collectors/operators. I don't think that any one category rules the roost. I remember a survey last year that showed a large number of us still use tubular track. Certainly  not Hi-Rail. This does prove the point that one of the nicest things about our hobby is there is room for everybody.

I am thankful that Lionel makes product that satisfy just about all of us.

There are 3 forums here for a reason.  The folks on this forum are the ones who like to collect/operate/play with the things made by Lionel/MTH/Williams/etc that they can enjoy as they are. Scale fidelity/rivet counting is not a metric they care about.

That is why there is a 3-rail scale forum.  Saying things about the scale fidelity of those same models in that forum is appropriate.

Sorry, but to me doing it in this forum is tantamount to trolling.

rdunniii:

Well said.

Rich, Thanks for posting the photos and video on your PRR E8. I am finally getting mine tomorrow.

http://www.toytrainsontracks.c...RR_E8_PhotoPage.html

Even Adolf had to deal with rivet counters. 

NQDY

That was a good movie. So much for the Mind of Hitler.

This set of Weaver E8's dates to 1990 with a lot of work. (Middle). Really not a lot of reason to sell them and buy the Lionel, or MTH, new in the box ones. IMO.

I have a set of the Weaver E8s and I think they were very well done for the era they were produced.  Weaver also did a B-unit, which Lionel did not. A few months ago I had a gentlemen in Chicago install TMCC using the Electric Railroad Co. board.  Worked out quite nicely as I now have a scale A-B-A with TMCC and sound.  Not the full-blown Odyssey package but plenty for my needs.

Quote By Mike CT:

"This set of Weaver E8's dates to 1990 with a lot of work. (Middle). Really not a lot of reason to sell them and buy the Lionel, or MTH, new in the box ones. IMO."

I agree with you Mike, I have taken advantage of others selling off their engines just to get a Legacy system of the same engine. I love legacy and have a lot of them but I don't find it a necessity to sell off my engines and buy the new one every time one comes out. Buy the way I love your Morristown and Erie RS-1. One day I hope to find one on sale.

I had the Weaver Shop install TM/RS in one *Southern E-8 A unit which will head up a 4 car consist on my small attic layout[when I get it up and running again]. It would look silly to have a pair of E-8s for only 4 passenger cars.

*Purchased the A A units and five Weaver silver cars from Owen Upp back in the early to mid '90s...I forget exactly?