Lionel Legacy Milwaukee Road S3

Answering this question, and drawing conclusions from it, is a waste of time, at this point. Your question is very premature, as well as an attempt to compare apples and oranges. Apples and oranges because the engine being advertised is used, and is also only in C-7 condition, so you can't compare it with a brand new engine. Your question is also premature, because there are still two and a half days left on the auction. You can't draw any conclusions at this point (other than that the final price is going to be higher than it is now).  If you know anything about the bay, you should know that prices on items like this often rise most near the end of the auctions. 

Theres too many variables to make this a fair comparison. Without even bringing Lionels current pricing into the mix:

1. Its used, you will have no idea of its actual condition until you receive it regardless of the sellers description. There is     a fair amount of risk involved. 

2. Theres no warranty. At the very least some of these locos had smoke unit issues.

3. In the past these S3's have typically sold for well over$1000 due to the scarcity. I'm not sure how much the new             offering will impact the secondary price.

4. There are still 2 days left, the biggest jumps in price will likely occur seconds before the item ends, leaving the                 current $862 price well behind.

5. There is no shortage of ebayers that will pay more than something is worth because they don't search as well, don't        know any better, or don't care.( I recently bought a Lionel milk car for $20, I was the sole bidder. An identical milk         car in the same condition sold for $45 the other day and there were numerous bidders.)

      IMO, if you could grab it for $862 it would probably be worth it. Once it goes over $1000, the higher it goes the               more I would be inclined to buy the new one.

Since the new one will be around $1500 on the street, and will come with a warranty, that's the way I'd go.  Not sure why my previous post magically disappeared, must have been something I said.

I have had many more good experiences with eBay than bad. Yes, I did buy an MTH engine last year that had an issue, but the seller paid to get it repaired.

The question that I was posing is if the new S3 is listed for $1700 with the Bluetooth, but you could get a used one for say some where around $1000-$1200, would you pay the extra $500 for the new engine with Bluetooth?

Since the new one will sell for $1500 on the street, I certainly would pay $300 for a warranty, cylinder steam, probably better sound, and since it has it, the Bluetooth.

No GUNRUNNERJOHN, the original post was taken down because I forgot that you couldn't post direct links to eBay.

Don't for get about the Tax. Uncle same needs his cut and where I live it is 8%. So, that would be another $120 on top of that $1500.

Buy it mail-order in Delaware.

The original has cylinder steam 

I don't buy items from Mail order because I like to support my local Hobby shop. If people stop supporting them, there will be no where local to fix trains when they need repair. It is also a lot easier if you have an issue to bring the item back instead of having to mail it back. It is all about service.

I only by items on eBay and at trains shows and York that you can no longer get.

Matt- the new one has cylinder steam as well.

Tom 4 posted:

I don't buy items from Mail order because I like to support my local Hobby shop. If people stop supporting them, there will be no where local to fix trains when they need repair. It is also a lot easier if you have an issue to bring the item back instead of having to mail it back. It is all about service.

I only by items on eBay and at trains shows and York that you can no longer get.

If you're supporting your local hobby shop, buy the new one through them.   Buying mail-order or buying on eBay is the same as far as they're concerned I would imagine.

Matt Makens posted:

The original has cylinder steam 

??? 

So does the new one.

Tom 4 posted:

The question that I was posing is if the new S3 is listed for $1700 with the Bluetooth, but you could get a used one for say some where around $1000-$1200, would you pay the extra $500 for the new engine with Bluetooth? 

I think there been a certain amount of confusion here, because that was not your original question, or how it was phrased.  It was all centered around an $862 price you saw on Ebay, and your question was "The S3 in the new Lionel catalog is almost twice that price with only Bluetooth as the new addition to it. Is the Bluetooth worth the extra money?" 

In any case, you can't answer your question until the auction's over, and you see what a used, previous edition sells for. In the meantime, there are points people have provided to consider.

Tom, sounds like you've already made your decision. I personally would go with a local shop on the new issued unit though. Your money, your choice. Good luck.

Rod Miller

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

 

I know the warranty issue is huge with most people.  Your LHS may be a great place run by great people, but can he fix your trains properly?  

Yes..

Rusty

Warranty doesnt mother  to me I rather fix it myself. As for is it worth it to me after its over 1k it's not worth it as certain form dealer is selling the s3 on preorder if you call them for under 1400 .

jojofry posted:

Warranty doesnt mother  to me I rather fix it myself. As for is it worth it to me after its over 1k it's not worth it as certain form dealer is selling the s3 on preorder if you call them for under 1400 .

What dealer is that? 

I started this thread out of sheer curiosity as to what other forum members think. The original Milwaukee Road S3 was cataloged in 2011 for $1000, only 6 year later it is cataloged again for $1700 with the only upgrade being the Bluetooth. Why a $700 price jump?

I am just wondering how many of you will put down the Legacy remote and pick up your phone to control it?

I bought a Legacy Virginian Allegheny last year and with tax it came out to around $1940. Do I think the Allegheny engine is worth that much. No, I don't. For that kind of money, it should have been a Vision Line engine. The Pre-order price on the Vision Line Big Boy was $2000. Am I a sucker? Maybe. Did I want the engine, yes.

The last time a Virginian Allegheny was cataloged was 1999. At that time I think the list was around $1100. When it was in the 2016 catalog, it was listed for $2200. It took 17 years for the price to go up $1100. Was there upgrades to the engine. Yes, Many. Smoking whistle, Legacy control and sounds with dual speakers. Many separately applied details added from the original. Upgraded tender trucks.

Do you see what I am kind of getting at.

Tom 4 posted:

...

Do you see what I am kind of getting at.

Tom4,  

I posted my thoughts regarding this over on another thread.  Bottom line... I don't think you CAN "rationalize" the $700 uptick in price in just 7 years.  SOMETHING had to have been going on relative to the original S-3's pricing.  My personal thoughts on the matter are that Lionel got some kind of deal from their overseas factory for whatever reason, and they priced the S-3 where they did back in 2011.  I highly doubt it was priced "in error".  That makes no sense.  And as I said in my other post, only Lionel's S-3 product manager and perhaps former CEO Jerry Calabrese could shed some interesting "behind the scenes" trivia on the matter. 

Regardless of what happened in 2011, all bets are off for 2017+.  The company is offering nice products, but they're also expecting enthusiasts to dig deeper in their pockets.  That's an unfortunate given.  Some folks will continue to buy... and some will walk.  My biggest bone to pick with Lionel executives these days is that they have very shrewdly sidestepped the production quantity part of the risk vs. reward equation, and placed that squarely in the hands of dealers and distributors who order BTO extra's.  Lionel stands to make the highest reward (in terms of profit), but it's now the dealers who are carrying all the risk.  But that's also the price dealers are now paying to have the opportunity to better compete for pre-order business.  Alas, there is never a free lunch in life. 

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Tom4,  

I posted my thoughts regarding this over on another thread.  Bottom line... I don't think you CAN "rationalize" the $700 uptick in price in just 7 years.  SOMETHING had to have been going on relative to the original S-3's pricing.  My personal thoughts on the matter are that Lionel got some kind of deal from their overseas factory for whatever reason, and they priced the S-3 where they did back in 2011.  I highly doubt it was priced "in error".  That makes no sense.  And as I said in my other post, only Lionel's S-3 product manager and perhaps former CEO Jerry Calabrese could shed some interesting "behind the scenes" trivia on the matter. 

Regardless of what happened in 2011, all bets are off for 2017+.  The company is offering nice products, but they're also expecting enthusiasts to dig deeper in their pockets.  That's an unfortunate given.  Some folks will continue to buy... and some will walk.  My biggest bone to pick with Lionel executives these days is that they have very shrewdly sidestepped the production quantity part of the risk vs. reward equation, and placed that squarely in the hands of dealers and distributors who order BTO extra's.  Lionel stands to make the highest reward (in terms of profit), but it's now the dealers who are carrying all the risk.  But that's also the price dealers are now paying to have the opportunity to better compete for pre-order business.  Alas, there is never a free lunch in life. 

David

So Lionel gets a price break on a locomotive from the factory and passes it on to the consumer?  That goes against everything you tell us they do.  But as you said, sort of, without insider knowledge we can speculate all we want. 

All I do know for sure is the Texas Pennsylvania #6498 2-10-4 Texas LEGACY Steam Locomotive SKU: 6-11301was $1299 with less features and was featured in the same catalog.  The S-3 in addition to the steam chest effect also had the kinetic draw bar but was $994 list.  A -$300 difference in MSRP.  Something was wonky.

We can go back and forth all day without the facts but Dave Olson pretty much let us know that they felt it was incorrectly priced in it's first run.  The current run, even though $700 more than the original release, is more in line with the current roster of locomotives.  Whether you feel it's worth it is up to the individuals.  I mentioned on another thread that the Scale Polar Express cars are $10 less per car than the previous releases but that hasn't garnered much attention.

As far as putting the risk on the dealers, BTO has been around for years, it just wasn't called that. Most of the companies / importers are doing that.  Otherwise we wouldn't have ordering deadlines.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Lionel stands to make the highest reward (in terms of profit), but it's now the dealers who are carrying all the risk.

 

The dealers do not have to carry any risk if they don't buy BTO extras. (assuming the item is not a disaster that causes pre-orders to be cancelled)

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

But that's also the price dealers are now paying to have the opportunity to better compete for pre-order business.

That's the price dealers are paying to have the opportunity to sell extras, they compete separately for the pre-orders.

Dave

MartyE posted:

As far as putting the risk on the dealers, BTO has been around for years, it just wasn't called that. Most of the companies / importers are doing that.  Otherwise we wouldn't have ordering deadlines.

No, ordering deadlines, for the manufacture's production scheduling, have been around for years. The manufacturer could also produce a percentage to hold as additional stock in their own warehouse, and dole it out as needed. BTO now eliminates that part (supposedly).

Dave

Perhaps but if the importer doesn't say BTO, makes the amount from the dealer network, it's effectively the same thing. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since the new one will sell for $1500 on the street, I certainly would pay $300 for a warranty, cylinder steam, probably better sound, and since it has it, the Bluetooth.

My teeth are white so I couldn't use the one with blue tooths .... ;-)

Dtrainmaster posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Lionel stands to make the highest reward (in terms of profit), but it's now the dealers who are carrying all the risk.

 

The dealers do not have to carry any risk if they don't buy BTO extras. (assuming the item is not a disaster that causes pre-orders to be cancelled)

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

But that's also the price dealers are now paying to have the opportunity to better compete for pre-order business.

That's the price dealers are paying to have the opportunity to sell extras, they compete separately for the pre-orders.

 

Dave

I think you and Marty are missing a subtle but very important difference in the dealer marketplace after Lionel changed over to a formal BTO business model for the big-ticket items.

During pre-BTO times, it seemed that Lionel "favored" the larger dealers in terms of ensuring they'd receive the products they ordered.  For example, it was highly unusual for places like Charlie Ro, Nicholas Smith Trains or Grzyboski Trains to be "shorted" if a product was under-produced.   So enthusiasts tended to do most of their pre-ordering from "the big dealers" to ensure they'd actually receive product.

Fast-forward to Lionel's BTO model now...  Whether it's true or not, there's a heavy inference that ANY dealer can now submit as many pre-orders as they want, and Lionel will definitely fulfill their orders.  So now enthusiasts "feel better" about ordering from a smaller mom-and-pop train store (assuming they're happy with the price), since they're less likely to feel that Lionel will short their small dealer's orders.  For the most part, we're also no longer seeing big price variations among dealers at pre-order time.  True, Lionel has instituted MAP... so dealers now can't ADVERTISE their actual selling prices if they want to sell below the MAP.  Instead, everybody -- small as well as large -- publishes the same prices online or in print.  We need to call stores directly to get better pre-order prices.

True... for a mom-and-pop store who doesn't order BTO extra's, there only big risk is a buyer not paying for the product when it's ready to ship.  Hopefully, that's the exception more than the rule though.  But without any extra's, that stores business model needs to be OK with "just" selling pre-ordered items -- i.e., no post-delivery additional sales at potentially higher prices than pre-order prices.  It's all a delicate balance.

David

One thing train manufactures need to think about. If you don't have them you can't sell them.  The only thing BTO has done is drive up prices locking many people out of a wonderful hobby.

The one on ebay just sold for $1025

I have the 261 and 267 plus the 7 car set. I bought them brand new. I have been offered $1000.00 for one of the engines, both have been slight used then went back in the box. The 7 passenger cars have never seen the light of day. $800 to $1,000.00 is a fair price.  The SRP was $994.99 and I paid around $849.00 new.

Warranty, I have never had issues on these units so hard to say if that is a deal breaker. Bluetooth, while is cool, is a $5.00 or less chipset. Unless you absolutely have to have a brand spanking new unit the earlier issue is the way to go. Bluetooth for $300 doesn't make much sense.

PSU1980 posted:

I have the 261 and 267 plus the 7 car set. I bought them brand new. I have been offered $1000.00 for one of the engines, both have been slight used then went back in the box. The 7 passenger cars have never seen the light of day. $800 to $1,000.00 is a fair price.  The SRP was $994.99 and I paid around $849.00 new.

Warranty, I have never had issues on these units so hard to say if that is a deal breaker. Bluetooth, while is cool, is a $5.00 or less chipset. Unless you absolutely have to have a brand spanking new unit the earlier issue is the way to go. Bluetooth for $300 doesn't make much sense.

Plus the sound set on the earlier one is amazing! 

PSU1980 posted:

 Bluetooth for $300 doesn't make much sense.

$994 for an engine that should have been priced at $1299 based on similar locomotives with the same features in the same catalog didn't make much sense either but no one complained then.

Yep. Prices jumped 500 dollars in 6 years. That's just a fact of life.  This locomotive always had a goofy price on it because of the demand. BTW,try to find a M1b.

MartyE posted:

PSU1980 posted:

 Bluetooth for $300 doesn't make much sense.

$994 for an engine that should have been priced at $1299 based on similar locomotives with the same features in the same catalog didn't make much sense either but no one complained then.

Marty,

You keep saying that. But let's also not forget that back around 2010-2011, $1K was a lot of pennies for a non-articulated steam locomotive. Still is to many enthusiasts. It's just that Lionel was also starting to shift steam loco prices -- even back then for example with the Texas steamer at $1,300 -- into articulated price territory.  So if anybody was "complaining" about anything in 2011, it was the 2-10-4 being $1,300.  

After all, I recall paying around $1,400 for the articulated  Y6b with whistle-steam just a few years ago. Yet last year, we were already paying at least that for the new Reading T-1, a basic steam locomotive.  And for those folks drueling over a new weathered Y6b due out within a month or two?  Well that now retails for $2,200 MSRP, with an estimated street price of $1,850.  My my... how prices have shot up in just a couple of recent years.  $450 for a weathering job on the y6B -- which isn't even a newly manufactured locomotive, just a nice weathering job on some left-over Y6b's in Lionel's inventory from a couple of years ago?  No thank you.    

So yes, Lionel's latest executive team has a lot of explaining to do in terms of where they're taking the company's most recent price hikes vs. so few new features.  True... given what we've seen in recent years, the new S-3 being catalog'd at $1,700 MSRP isn't all that surprising.  What is surprising though is how easily the company's executive team is throwing around few- to several-hundred-dollar price increases, when it's not that difficult for enthusiasts to see we're getting so much less bang for our bucks nowadays.  

Nice stuff... We're just paying a lot more for it -- usually. 

David

David

Yes I keep saying that.  I still think, IMO, the S-3 was priced wrong based on comparisons to other locomotives of the time.  Whether the higher cost locomotives were overpriced was up to the consumers to decide.  I did purchase the 2-10-4 and not for $1299.

I won't argue what a locomotive should be priced at.  I don't have the insider knowledge to make that judgement.  All I can do is base my observations on the other engines produced at the time.

As far as Lionel's management team explaining anything...LOL.  They really don't owe anyone an explanation.  The consumer must and will decide whether the costs of the locomotives are warranted or not by using their judgement.  They could increase the cost by $500 a year and owe nobody but their investors an explanation when they don't meet their numbers.  As far a owing us an explanation...nope. 

It's really very simple.  If you don't think you are getting the value for the cost don't buy it.  If you do then the money is yours to spend as you seem fit.  Both you and I could go back and forth and it won't mean a hill of beans.  I'm pretty sure Lionel or any other company don't base their pricing structure on a couple of uninformed posters on a message board but on what they need to to keep in business. I'm certainly not changing anyone's mind and I suspect neither are you.

I guess we'll never know why the 1st run S-3 was priced how it was but it looks like the new one is priced, no matter how they arrived at the number, more in line with everything else in the catalog even if too high.  Oh well.  I know what I'm getting and those prices actually came down so it's all good.

PSU1980 posted:

  Warranty, I have never had issues on these units so hard to say if that is a deal breaker. Bluetooth, while is cool, is a $5.00 or less chipset. Unless you absolutely have to have a brand spanking new unit the earlier issue is the way to go. Bluetooth for $300 doesn't make much sense.

And if you did, how many repairs would it take on the original to make the one year warranty on this reissue a worthwhile consideration for buying it?    Not even close.......

Joe 

When I bought my 261 several years ago, I thought that Lionel priced it the way it did as a come-on to attract new people into the higher end of the hobby ... and maybe as a thank-you to those customers who had been buying the higher-priced models. Rather than looking for a short-term win with the 261, the company opted to lose a few bucks by pricing it low, but making up for it later with other engines; kind of like what Amazon is now doing with Whole Foods.  I guess I was wrong, eh?

MartyE posted:

...

As far as Lionel's management team explaining anything...LOL.  They really don't owe anyone an explanation.  ...

Marty,

FWIW, I was speaking figuratively in terms of Lionel's executive team "explaining" why they've increased prices.  We'll all be turning blue in the face holding our breath waiting for that to happen!    The point being they shouldn't expect toy train enthusiasts to be so gullible as to just pay the latest prices "because" this stuff comes in a blue and orange box. That may have worked in the "collectible era", but today's modern era trains aren't any more collectible than the man in the moon. 

Then again, look how many folks lined up at Lionel's booth in York last April to pay $50 so they'd ensure their chance of going home with one of fifty $20-boxcars!!!    Lionel's execs see stuff like that, and in turn think folks will buy anything at whatever price they put on it.  Perhaps we have ourselves to blame for today's toy train prices.  But I'm glad I built most of my toy train roster years ago.  I'd go broke buying trains today like I did 15-20 years ago. 

David 

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

MartyE posted:

...

As far as Lionel's management team explaining anything...LOL.  They really don't owe anyone an explanation.  ...

Marty,

  Perhaps we have ourselves to blame for today's toy train prices.  But I'm glad I built most of my toy train roster years ago.  I'd go broke buying trains today like I did 15-20 years ago. 

On both of those points I can agree with.  Sans the Scale Polar Express, I'm almost done.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Dtrainmaster posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Lionel stands to make the highest reward (in terms of profit), but it's now the dealers who are carrying all the risk.

 

The dealers do not have to carry any risk if they don't buy BTO extras. (assuming the item is not a disaster that causes pre-orders to be cancelled)

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

But that's also the price dealers are now paying to have the opportunity to better compete for pre-order business.

That's the price dealers are paying to have the opportunity to sell extras, they compete separately for the pre-orders.

 

Dave

I think you and Marty are missing a subtle but very important difference in the dealer marketplace after Lionel changed over to a formal BTO business model for the big-ticket items.

During pre-BTO times, it seemed that Lionel "favored" the larger dealers in terms of ensuring they'd receive the products they ordered.  For example, it was highly unusual for places like Charlie Ro, Nicholas Smith Trains or Grzyboski Trains to be "shorted" if a product was under-produced.   So enthusiasts tended to do most of their pre-ordering from "the big dealers" to ensure they'd actually receive product.

Fast-forward to Lionel's BTO model now...  Whether it's true or not, there's a heavy inference that ANY dealer can now submit as many pre-orders as they want, and Lionel will definitely fulfill their orders.  So now enthusiasts "feel better" about ordering from a smaller mom-and-pop train store (assuming they're happy with the price), since they're less likely to feel that Lionel will short their small dealer's orders.  For the most part, we're also no longer seeing big price variations among dealers at pre-order time.  True, Lionel has instituted MAP... so dealers now can't ADVERTISE their actual selling prices if they want to sell below the MAP.  Instead, everybody -- small as well as large -- publishes the same prices online or in print.  We need to call stores directly to get better pre-order prices.

True... for a mom-and-pop store who doesn't order BTO extra's, there only big risk is a buyer not paying for the product when it's ready to ship.  Hopefully, that's the exception more than the rule though.  But without any extra's, that stores business model needs to be OK with "just" selling pre-ordered items -- i.e., no post-delivery additional sales at potentially higher prices than pre-order prices.  It's all a delicate balance.

David

my mom and dad had 2 hobby stores from 1975 clear through the turn of the century. I can tell you for fact, many a time when I would help them at the store, trying to track down a certain product cause Lionel would cut them short. it didn't matter if it was a high dollar product, or something simple as Christmas cars. I clearly remember one year they shorted Christmas cars by half. So yes, before BTO, Lionel sure took care of the big dogs....Dad would purchase certain items for his good customers from other retailers, just so he could provide that customer service. I can tell you from experience, back in the day, if they made 20% on lionel product they were doing good....

I'm concerned these might not get made given the few preorders that are coming in for them. I was expecting more activity. As has been suggested, maybe the price has been an issue. 

I've enjoyed reading all the opinions bantered back and forth on this thread.  A very lucky person picked up the Milwaukee steamer that just sold on eBay, because I too don't seem to be getting many preorders at these prices.

It's the $1600 A-B-B-A diesel sets that are selling.  Actually, I believe it's the road name that is selling, more than it is the model of locomotive that is being made.