Lionel Made in America

A metal engine may be heavier than a plastic one, but what makes it higher in quality?

Alex, your plea is very impassioned and well thought out.  You put some of us older guys to shame.

However, I would like to take exception to your position on die cast metal being higher quality than plastic.

It should be noted that the diesels from Lionel’s postwar era were made from plastic. F3’s, FA’s, GP’s, 44 Tonners, Other Switcher’s, Train Masters and the electrics like EP-5’s and Rectifiers all had plastic bodies.  Some had die cast frames while others stamped metal.  Only the GG1's had a die cast body through the ages.  All of these models have withstood the test of time and were relatively expensive for their day.  When your parent is making about $68 (before taxes) a week during the middle 1950's, a $40-$50 locomotive is quite expensive.

 As to value, that's something totally in the eye of the beholder.  Some model trains are still worth more than others, but a model train as a monetary investment is a bad idea.  The true investment is the enjoyment one gets from trains.

Rusty

I may be missing your point, but here's my opinion.  I fit into the shallow pocket category, or sometimes no pockets at all.  Last winter I made the decision to restart an "O" gauge layout.  At first I started buying things I thought I wanted, but what I was buying would have led to a layout that required more high tech equipment than I had the money for or for that matter, the mentality to pursue.  So I made the decision to stick with what I know, Post-War and MPC.  Prices for this equipment fits my capital improvement budget nicely.  

Now, what I would like to see Lionel do is continue the manufacture of those trains from the Post-War period.  I know they had the Conventional Classics series, but I understand they no longer make it.  

If you're talking about trains that are rugged, the Post-War trains have certainly proven to be up to the task.

Alex, it is wonderful that you expressed your thoughts.

I would add that I agree that quality matters, but, sadly, building in the US or anywhere else for that matter is no guarantee of quality.  There are many instances of older train items manufactured in the US that were not so good.  In general, quality will cost money.  More detail, cleaner paint, better reliability all carry a cost.  Those are the important choices.

This hobby includes people with a range of budgets and interests.  For some, the pursuit of the highest quality and the willingness to pay for it is what they do.  For others, a lower price in exchange for less detail, weaker motor, etc. enables them to be in the hobby without being priced out.  Even the choice of buying used vs new equipment falls into that tradeoff.  It strikes me that buying a car is a similar exercise.

Keep on railroading, Alex, and express your views.  Good for you.

Our  diesel engines have always had plastic bodies,  better detail and more than heavy enough. With China's metal rot I feel much more comfortable with a plastic body. Yes I know there have been offering's with metal bodies.

Many good points made by Alex and I agree with most of them. When trains were made in the USA they were high quality/high reliability items made to survive rough use by children. They were always expensive but you knew that when you made a purchase that item would last for many years to come. If it ever needed repair, all  parts were readily available and it would also be an easy task that most consumers could handle. The philosophy in the industry has changed but IMO that is one of the limiting marketing factors

When trains were made in the USA they were high quality/high reliability items made to survive rough use by children.

Today more and more people want scale detailed trains. Scale details by their nature are delicate and usually do not survive rough use by children. Nothing to do with being made here.

 With China's metal rot I feel much more comfortable with a plastic body. Yes I know there have been offering's with metal bodies.

Unfortunately, being made in the USA is no guarantee that ZAMAC parts will be properly cast. Some ZAMAC 1950's transformer parts are commonly found to be decayed, and I've had 1970's Lionel ZAMAC parts decayed (cast metal diesel truck sides).

All that written, I too would like to see toy / model trains and everything else I purchase to be made in the USA. When I am making a purchase, I do give preference to goods made here, and for many items, I actively seek them out.

I have read the replies and their were some concerns about money and the cost of diecast trains, which I totally understand. I don't want Train manufacturers stopping the production of plastic models, I just want them to incorporate higher quality models. Lionel has been pretty successful with visionline and I feel that we should see diesels come out of visionline not just steam and passenger diesels. Also what you need to keep In mind is the fact that if a company has a tooling from any model plastic or diecast, they can use it for production of whatever material they want. 

Also what you need to keep In mind is the fact that if a company has a tooling from any model plastic or diecast, they can use it for production of whatever material they want. 

It's my impression that in general, tooling designed for metal casting cannot simply be mounted in a plastic casting machine and run. Modifications are required.
Maybe this is old, outdated information, or perhaps I am mistaken.

jjm posted:

Alex, it is wonderful that you expressed your thoughts.

I would add that I agree that quality matters, but, sadly, building in the US or anywhere else for that matter is no guarantee of quality.  There are many instances of older train items manufactured in the US that were not so good.  In general, quality will cost money.  More detail, cleaner paint, better reliability all carry a cost.  Those are the important choices.

This hobby includes people with a range of budgets and interests.  For some, the pursuit of the highest quality and the willingness to pay for it is what they do.  For others, a lower price in exchange for less detail, weaker motor, etc. enables them to be in the hobby without being priced out.  Even the choice of buying used vs new equipment falls into that tradeoff.  It strikes me that buying a car is a similar exercise.

Keep on railroading, Alex, and express your views.  Good for you.

Yes that's true, I touched in that on the post. I think that production in the US would lead to higher quality, but I think that it's Lionel, mth etc. decision to start making higher quality products. As far as I know visionline products are made in china but Lionel made the decision to make nicer models. So ultimately I would rather see made in china and higher quality products than made in America with lower quality products. Also if the president elect starts lowering Buisness takes to 15% I think we will slowly see more made in the USA products from train manufacturers

C W Burfle posted:

Also what you need to keep In mind is the fact that if a company has a tooling from any model plastic or diecast, they can use it for production of whatever material they want. 

It's my impression that in general, tooling designed for metal casting cannot simply be mounted in a plastic casting machine and run. Modifications are required.
Maybe this is old, outdated information, or perhaps I am mistaken.

I'm not 100% sure on that, but if you look at some of Lionel's diecast models and compare them to plastic models they reused the same toolinga on some of the parts (not the cab but the body) But please correct me if I'm wrong 

I'm not 100% sure on that, but if you look at some of Lionel's diecast models and compare them to plastic models they reused the same toolinga on some of the parts (not the cab but the body) But please correct me if I'm wrong 

That doesn't mean the tooling wasn't modified to make the switch. There are folks on the board with expertise in casting. Maybe they will comment.

The thing about quality is it just doesn't occur on the assembly line.  Quality is not a destination, it is a journey.

It is a long process that begins with the design, engineering and the materials specified for a product.  All tools, molds, jigs, paint masks and assembly instructions are dependent on this.

Rusty

Pingman posted:

Alex, thanks for the paragraphs.

I'd like to share some thoughts with you privately, but you don't provide an email address in your profile.  You can contact me at the email address in my profile.

Hey I finally put my email in my description, email me whenever 

What I think you guys also need to look at is the fact the the Steam Locomotives we buy ($1000 price range) are metal and that if they were mostly made out of plastic almost everyone would complain. The same thing goes for diesels if they were always made out of diecast metal and then all of a sudden they switched to plastic bodies we would all complain. The reason is because of quality and Durablitlity. I think the point that I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't lower our expectations on any locomotive we should stand firm on our wants for high quality products as well as the more affordable plastic body Locomotives.

If it comes down to it, I will learn how to make a metal body and I will paint it. What I would do is I would still buy steam locomotives from Lionel as well as diesels to use to run and put my custom frame onto the motor or whatever engine I modeled. That's a last resort but I don't like to settle for less! And if it comes down to it I'll give it a try

Being involved in the manufacturing side of model trains (I simply consult), I don't believe the die cast bodies are always better than plastic ones.  It all depends upon the prototype being modeled, the price point that it will realistically sell at, and the level of detail one is happy with on their models.  In my experience die cast models tend to accentuate details such as rivets that plastic does not.  In most cases, most of the fine detail on a plastic model is done with brass etchings or castings.  Brass allows for the finest refinement in detail.  The material a train is made out of really has nothing to due with quality and durability as much as how well someone handles their trains.  I've broken plenty of parts of die cast trains just as I have with plastic or brass. 

I'd also simply state that quality is often in the eye of the beholder.  It depends on what features we desire.  Are we looking for perfect sound, maybe something that runs forever with little maintenance, the type of command system, or the best model representation of the prototype?  For me personally, it has always been the best version of the prototype available in model form.  The model could be plastic, die cast or brass as long as it is the most accurate model that fits my budget.  Given a choice, I'd probably choose brass 9 times out of 10 if I could afford it.

GG1 4877 posted:

Being involved in the manufacturing side of model trains (I simply consult), I don't believe the die cast bodies are always better than plastic ones.  It all depends upon the prototype being modeled, the price point that it will realistically sell at, and the level of detail one is happy with on their models.  In my experience die cast models tend to accentuate details such as rivets that plastic does not.  In most cases, most of the fine detail on a plastic model is done with brass etchings or castings.  Brass allows for the finest refinement in detail.  The material a train is made out of really has nothing to due with quality and durability as much as how well someone handles their trains.  I've broken plenty of parts of die cast trains just as I have with plastic or brass. 

I'd also simply state that quality is often in the eye of the beholder.  It depends on what features we desire.  Are we looking for perfect sound, maybe something that runs forever with little maintenance, the type of command system, or the best model representation of the prototype?  For me personally, it has always been the best version of the prototype available in model form.  The model could be plastic, die cast or brass as long as it is the most accurate model that fits my budget.  Given a choice, I'd probably choose brass 9 times out of 10 if I could afford it.

Yea I absolutely agree with you!

So after long thoughts I finally think I found a solution to my problems! So what I'm going to do is make castings out of the plastic models I will buy and then I will go back in with an engraver and make the details more apparent. Then I will paint the engine using an airbrush, then when I am happy with the model I will go in and add features. Now here's it summed up: 

-I will buy steam engines from Lionel 

-I will buy Diesel engines from Lionel 

-I will make molds using those diesel frames 

-Then I will airbrush a paint scheme onto the custom models

-Then I will put them onto a custom flatbed (basically a non powered engine)

-With the diesels I buy I will use those for pulling power etc. 

-Long story short I will continue to buy Locomotives from Lionel or whoever, then I will make molds t of them, then put stainless steel or some type of metal melted down into those molds, use plastic diesels for pulling power, and of course buy and run steam!

if you have any recommendations please reply to me it means a lot!!!

Alex Trains posted:

 

if you have any recommendations please reply to me it means a lot!!!

Just my opinion but, I would purchase Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot products, i.e. steam (all hand made brass), diesels (ABS plastic bodies on brass frames with single motor horizontal QUIET drive), and scale size passenger equipment (made of extruded aluminum for the stream lined equipment, and ABS plastic for the heavyweight equipment).  At least that is what I have been doing, and have been VERY satisfied with the extra level of details and overall quality.

Alex, you have the same metal bias I do. I cringe when someone in this forum suggests a switch to plastic-bodied steamers. That's not going to happen. The O gauge market favors diecast metal steamers.

However, the market also favors plastic-bodied diesels. So while I appreciate your viewpoint, I don't agree that there are enough people to make diecast diesels a reality, aside from small switchers where the extra weight is strategic and critical in the design. 

What you haven't considered in your suggestion that the market can have both plastic and diecast diesels is amortization costs. Molds, dies and tooling is a substantial investment, even in China, and manufacturers need to recover those costs before those pieces wear out. Pricing in part is based on paying those costs by producing so many units. The more units produced, the lower the price per unit.

So, if a diesel run consists of 2,000 units made, the cost is lower than for 500 units made.

By splitting the market to satisfy those who want diecast metal diesels and those who want plastic, you introduce a higher price structure for both segments of the market.

While it's true that diecast production no longer involves tooling that can last for decades, thus allowing smaller runs at a lower cost, the market has also shrunk.

There are lots of other economic factors involved, but your assumption that diecast diesels would cost only $100 or $200 more is incorrect, assuming a split market favoring plastic. More likely, diecast diesels would cost double the amount than the equivalent plastic counterpart. 

Now if everyone agreed that diecast was the way to go, the price difference might shrink to about a 40 percent difference.

As for this idea of diecast being about quality, well ... That is definitely a biased view. Again, I share your bias, but many don't, based on their experiences.

I'm also into N scale a bit, and I am happy to see a trend toward more metal steam locomotives in recent years. Bachmann, for instance, has made J Class, a Berkshire and K4 locomotives in diecast over the past decade. But most of their counterparts in HO are still plastic. That's just the nature of those markets. But diecast metal diesels are another matter. Very rare indeed.

Of course, there is always the option of handcrafted brass models, but that's another topic.

Alex Trains posted:

 

-Long story short I will continue to buy Locomotives from Lionel or whoever, then I will make molds t of them, then put stainless steel or some type of metal melted down into those molds, use plastic diesels for pulling power, and of course buy and run steam!

 

 

Whoa there Grasshopper...

You have access to raw stainless steel billets and something that generates over 2600 degrees Fahrenheit?

I'm impressed.

Rusty

Rusty Traque posted:

Alex Trains posted:

 

-Long story short I will continue to buy Locomotives from Lionel or whoever, then I will make molds t of them, then put stainless steel or some type of metal melted down into those molds, use plastic diesels for pulling power, and of course buy and run steam!

 

 

Whoa there Grasshopper...

You have access to raw stainless steel billets and something that generates over 2600 degrees Fahrenheit?

I'm impressed.

Rusty

No, Lol, I just thought of the first thing that came to mind. It probably will be brass or some other metal. I need to research it more

Their are 2 things that I can do for hours that's play lacrosse and model (work on the layout/model trains and run trains)

When I start making my own models I feel that I can enjoy the Hobby more and add to it. I love to do my own custom paint jobs and now I can make brass (or whatever metal) trains. So when I finish a layout I don't stop working! Also continue to support and definitely buy from manufacturers like Lionel, mth, and atlas

Maybe before too long you'll have access to 3D printers capable enough of printing pretty good quality plastic or maybe metal shells at an affordable cost.   You can paint them, assemble them into running trains ... with enough other parts of course.

You will still have to be above 1600°F to melt brass.  While 3D printing in different alloyed metals is a reality, it's still not cheap.  The metals are still a huge factor in the cost and they are nowhere near as cheap as the typical plastic 3D printer.  Plus copying a existing diesel with a mold will be difficult.  You would need to strip all attached parts and the paint at minimum.

I see the plastic side of 3D printing becoming more and more accessible though and much better.

Personally, I don't see the issue with plastic other than weight for pulling.  Some amazing plastic steamers have come out in HO and now N at very good price points.

Dan Padova posted:

 

Now, what I would like to see Lionel do is continue the manufacture of those trains from the Post-War period.  I know they had the Conventional Classics series, but I understand they no longer make it.  

 

My 2 cents,

Good conversation,

Quality is directly linked to processes and materials. The  Conventional Classics series or Postwar celebration series made in China attest to this. They are not as robust as the true postwar items. I have a seven car SantaFe blue stripe passenger car set to prove my point. Sloppy wheels and axles, bad couplers, faulty wiring.  Right out of the box new. I also purchased one other of the conventional classics the Rock Island 2031 black and red ALCOs / 6-38371 that did not run for 5 minutes out of the box new and had to be returned and replaced by Lionel.  Two strikes on two purchases. Kind of makes you wonder what Lionel is thinking? I have no problem with plastic bodies, but plastic drive gears,,,,,??? Come ON! I have several diesel sets made in the 90s that have very little run time and the gears are junk no matter how much to lube them. Not sure where they were made. I forgot to add these were high $$$$ Dash 8-40Cs not starter set engines. So why put two motors that can pull 15 to 20 cars with gears that can't handle the load the motors can pull?

So I don't think it is as much the fault of where, but "what" the manufacture picks for materials and how robust there processes are that powers the level of quality.

TexasSP posted:

You will still have to be above 1600°F to melt brass.  While 3D printing in different alloyed metals is a reality, it's still not cheap.  The metals are still a huge factor in the cost and they are nowhere near as cheap as the typical plastic 3D printer.  Plus copying a existing diesel with a mold will be difficult.  You would need to strip all attached parts and the paint at minimum.

I see the plastic side of 3D printing becoming more and more accessible though and much better.

Personally, I don't see the issue with plastic other than weight for pulling.  Some amazing plastic steamers have come out in HO and now N at very good price points.

Plastic steamers are on the way out in N scale. In addition to Bachmann's metal steamers, there are Model Power (MRC) Moguls, Americans and Pacifics, plus the metal FP7 diesel. Bachmann's Graham Farish line also continues a metal line of British steamers.

There is no question that plastic steamers were a cost consideration decades ago. Today's price structure relieved manufacturers of that cost concern. 

And I am opting for MTH's 44-ton diesel switcher (diecast) over Williams' model (plastic) because of my preference. And it will cost almost twice as much, street price. 

Still, I'm fine with most plastic diesels. 

I am trying to figure out how to make just the body/frame of a diesel locomotive, not replace the whole thing. 

As you guys can see I am always thinking, but right now I think I have an idea that I'll go a little into depth with. So I think I will just make custom frames but instead of making molds and then pouring molten aluminum or whatever into them, I will get deposits of whatever metal I choose then engrave them (with a machine and hand engrave for finer details) once engravers like that become more readily available. Then paint them whatever. So basically I'll make my own custom frames for fun, but run products manufactured by Lionel. So basically I'm expanding the hobby to a certain extent (for me, or whoever is crazy enough to do this LOL) As always leaves suggestions below, they have helped a Great amount 

This is also cool because I will be able to make older models and models that weren't made and be able to customize them if I choose too. Also I won't be limited to what train manufacturers make and the quality of them! I am planning on buying strictly plastic diesel models because a few years from now I will be able to recreate them! Very Cool to me, and I will continue to buy from Lionel and other manufacturers especially steam and rolling stock!!

Lionel never really had any interest in making PWC or CC engines and sets.   Their thing is NASCAR, or at least it was at the time.  Quality suffered, and in many cases, the basic engineering and research was left undone.   All too often I get the distinct impression that Lionel is attempting to drive the market to where they can make what they want.....with NO regard as to what the customer base thinks.  

Yep, trust me I know I have talked to them before. Now they have treated me well, but I just feel that they don't have as much passion as they use to. But I hope that changes and I now feel very good knowing that I don't need to rely on Train manufacturers too much!

Alex, I want to commend you on your enthusiasm and interest in custom building.  It is nearly a lost art.  Look in the 2 rail forum and you will see the work of members like MWB and Brother Love among others and see how amazing a quality custom build is.  You are at the age that if you start now and keep at it you will become a master model builder.  It is rare among the community anymore.  I started kitbashing and custom painting around your age.  It took me into my 20's before I was confident enough to even do a reasonable kitbash.  Those were my HO days when most of my steam locomotives had cast boilers and came in kit form.   

You will want a good set of modeling tools.  A collection of soldering tools for brass is helpful from low wattage irons up to resistance solders.  A quality modelers lathe is also helpful.  I will say that making molds and doing your own casting is not as easy as it sounds.  A good quality tool for either plastic or metals starts in the $10,000 and up range and that doesn't include all the work to take out the tooling joints or get the proper details.  There are things like injection ports to worry about and the benefit of the casting tool is really for making large runs of models.  One off models are more and more likely going to be done with 3D printing and add on details. 

If you are looking for unique models, there are plenty that have been made outside Lionel, MTH or Atlas.  Look at the older 2 rail models that have a scale tradition going back to the early 30's and you may find what you are looking for that can be modified and updated to modern electronics in 3 rail for your needs.  You may even want to start with some of the CLW steam kits and convert them to 3 rail.  The PRR H8 comes to mind.  They come with pretty raw components so it would be great practice should you decide to go into custom building.  Old Walthers passenger kits that were wood and metal also are great practice for building in kit form to work up to custom builds.  When built well they are stunning models. 

However, at the end of it, I'm currently with Hot Water.  Golden Gate Depot/3rd Rail/ Sunset makes all the scale product I could possibly want at a price point and quality level I could never build it for.  Not that I don't enjoy a challenging kit or kitbash now and then.

Awsome! Thanks for the tips 

Alex, just read your posts .... I'll email your soon.

I was looking through a 1996 CTT and saw that the TMCC GE Demonstrator Dash 9 with Pullmore motors and railsounds was listed in Charles Ro's ad for $499. Does that price look similar? About that same time of that issue I was fixing trains for a local large hobby shop who at the time were big enough to buy direct from Lionel. Guess what I used to do many January and February nights and weekends? Fix a lot of new broken trains for like next to nothing. In addition, the managers, father and son, told me about an invitation from Lionel to get a behind the scenes factory visit in Michigan. After their return, they were very unimpressed. Not a happy face in the labor force. I've made hundreds of service calls into similar operations and I knew just what they meant. I think quality comes from a top down attitude and you don't see it much anymore. Certainly tougher to obtain with off shore manufacturing. My two cents worth!

NYC Z-MAN posted:

I was looking through a 1996 CTT and saw that the TMCC GE Demonstrator Dash 9 with Pullmore motors and railsounds was listed in Charles Ro's ad for $499. Does that price look similar? About that same time of that issue I was fixing trains for a local large hobby shop who at the time were big enough to buy direct from Lionel. Guess what I used to do many January and February nights and weekends? Fix a lot of new broken trains for like next to nothing. In addition, the managers, father and son, told me about an invitation from Lionel to get a behind the scenes factory visit in Michigan. After their return, they were very unimpressed. Not a happy face in the labor force. I've made hundreds of service calls into similar operations and I knew just what they meant. I think quality comes from a top down attitude and you don't see it much anymore. Certainly tougher to obtain with off shore manufacturing. My two cents worth!

NYC Z-MAN,

Sounds about right for selling price for 1996 with TMCC and railsounds.

 I have two NS Dash 8-40Cs one is 6-18213 from 1994 and I don't know list price but on the box they wanted $399.00

 I also have a NS Dash 8-40C  6-18689 from 1992 and on that box it is at $349.00.

 I also have a CSX Dash 8-40C 6-18214 from 1994 that I would figure to be the same as the other 1994 one.

They all have 12 wheel Magnetraction and their plastic drive gears are the weak spot. Shame, if you ask me.

They were the top in their day.

Alex Trains posted:

This is also cool because I will be able to make older models and models that weren't made and be able to customize them if I choose too. Also I won't be limited to what train manufacturers make and the quality of them! I am planning on buying strictly plastic diesel models because a few years from now I will be able to recreate them! Very Cool to me, and I will continue to buy from Lionel and other manufacturers especially steam and rolling stock!!

You should get together with paigetrain, who is also in North Carolina and also has some wild ideas that he has voiced on this forum regarding homemade locomotive production. You think a lot alike.