Lionel Major Backplane "wiring" error on 4-6-4 Hudson and 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotives

Jim, are you saying that the older 4-6-2's and 4-6-4's are not command upgradeable? I think I have upgraded some of those in the past and they worked OK.

The specific backplane 691-PCB1-05F rev B is the problem

Thanks for the reply

Jim

What backplane does work and is it still available?

I have the 28020 LL that was Conventional and SS.  I upgrade to TMCC with C07 R2LC and just coupler and it worked.  Had the PCB1-09F.

I have the 28030 NYC that came TMCC/RS and it had PCB1-0B9.  This had DCDR so I upgraded to Cruise M.

Lionel made a ton of these back in that period and they flooded the market.  These engine with TMCC were being blown out at about $150 by the big dealers.

So maybe just the very early ones had a bad motherboard.  BAD on Lionel for not getting them out of the stock system and updating the parts site with the corrected board; if in fact they all were made that way.  G

I asked Dean J. Basseur,  Director of Customer Service at Lionel for help .I asked him if their was upgrades and ECO,s that would fix the problem, he gave me the one wire change as the fix to the problem.His other solution was  I should change and upgrade to a new controller. I offered the findings of my investigations and did not get a reply.

I am sure they know the problem. I gave him the complete configuration of my 4-6-2 Pacific "NEW HAVEN" cab number 1334 and they did not have a fix for their product. 

The backplane 691-PCB1-05F is multi layer board so retro fitting it is not a option . I might as well strip the connectors off the board and with my newly generated wirelist create a backplane . It would be faster to put the locomotive back together.  I don't know if the backplanes you described are available. ?

Thank you for your help and reply

Jim

Lionel lists a reworked version, is this NOT the fix for the issue?

Here's the original listing.

Here's the reworked version listing.

Gunrunnerjohn

I don't know without doing a "wire list of the internal connections . It is a Rev C.  It was not offered as a solution by Lionel Customer Service.I also found that backplane and asked specifically about the extra wire and where does it go and got a reply that it went to M1-21 which on R2LC radio board is not connected. 

It seem that GGG have added that his locomotives had different backplanes such as PCB1-09F and PCB1-0B9

I need to see them to see if they will work as far as mounting holes locations.

Thank you for the help and reply

Jim 

A different MB seems like the way to go.  I haven't run across this particular issue so far, so I haven't had the need to solve it.

The 05F motherboard has basic failure . You must line up pin 1 of the R2LC and 103E boards with pin 1 of the backplane. This is a electronics 101 mistake .

thank you for the reply

Jim

Chuck Sartor posted:

Jim, are you saying that the older 4-6-2's and 4-6-4's are not command upgradeable? I think I have upgraded some of those in the past and they worked OK.

Me too, Chuck. I've upgraded some of that first batch with the modular 103 as well, and even though the process is inelegant and klugey, it does work.

I'm glad the OP was able to get things to function, but I'm still scratching my head over all this.

TRW

GGG posted:

I have the 28020 LL that was Conventional and SS.  I upgrade to TMCC with C07 R2LC and just coupler and it worked.  Had the PCB1-09F.

I have the 28030 NYC that came TMCC/RS and it had PCB1-0B9.  This had DCDR so I upgraded to Cruise M.

George,

On that 28020 LL, did you mean PCB1-05F for the motherboard? The 09F is a RailSounds motherboard.

I know the 28030 NYC was part of the second (and pretty-much last) production grouping of these units. These ditched the modular 103 boards for a 104 and a DCDR.

TRW

Might be a typo on my list.  That was generate a decade ago, when I modified those engines.  It is boxed up so I wasn't going to take it apart to see what is in it.  G

GGG posted:

Might be a typo on my list. 

No problem! I was just curious.

TRW

Neither of those backplanes(09F,0BF) are a substitute for the 05F they will not work.

Thanks for the reply

Jim

Railroad Jim posted:

Neither of those backplanes(09F,0BF) are a substitute for the 05F they will not work.

Thanks for the reply

Jim

Right. Those motherboards are used on other generations of similar product that used the 104 reverse unit and a DCDR motor driver.

I'm reasonably certain that the only motherboard out there that uses the modular 103 is the 691-PCB1-05F.

TRW

Lionel 4-6-2 Pacific "NEW HAVEN" cab number 1334 now works in TMCC command mode. I built a replacement backplane for 691-PCB1-05F using the wirelist I generated from the original backplane. All functions work as intended. I used the  original R2LC board and the 103E-unit that came with the locomotive.The replacement backplane is not fancy, just perf board and square pin strips . Many thanks to the person who created the diagram showing the pinout and signal names for the R2LC radio board I found on the O gauge forum.

Jim 

John, showed the replacement board for this.  Rev C.  From previous discussions I have had with Lionel, this was a hole different group of engineers doing the technical stuff.  No real notes where taken, and when Lionel changed hands lots of corporate and technical knowledge of that period of time was lost.

Many engine where one offs with specific code written for that batch, and something different for the next series. 

I typed in 691pcb1 for the search, but if you typed the whole number you would have gotten what John did and known there was a revised board.  Same for Lionel, you should have gotten the replacement board on an order, not the same one. G

The Rev. C backplane appears to be a jumper modified 691-PCB1-05F . Without doing a continuity test to see if the board internal wiring had been changed. The 691-MB00-01A motherboard has the same flaw of the pin 1 on the motherboard  does not connect to pin 1 of the R2LC radio board . This is also the case with the 103E-unit as well . I sent for and received a replacement motherboard. It was the same as my 691-PCB1-05F . Now because it took me longer than 30 days to find the engineering mistake. I have 2 backplanes that will never work and cannot return. I still have not had a e-mail from Lionel ( it has been over a week ) returning a solution for their problem. I told them what I found and the solution. Lionel still sells a TMCC upgrade kit that is just a R2LC-C08 radio board . When you follow their upgrade procedure it will never work because the backplane was built wrong. As far as Lionel supporting their product. The change in management and loss of technical documentation means nothing to the person that bought a faulty upgrade product. This upgrade  disappointed a lot of people when it did not work . How many locomotives were produced and sold knowing that the upgrade would not work. I bought my 4-6-2 from someone that gave up trying to make it work. The steam Locomotive "NEW HAVEN" cab#1334 is a great unit . Diecast loco and tender very well detailed. I guess I am disappointed in Lionel for not having a solution for this problem.I hope my solution will fix a lot of shelf display locomotives.Maybe if a lot of owners complain to Lionel they will offer a recall and replace the faulty backplane.  

Jim

When the printed rev changes on the circuit board that typically means more then a jumper added.  I would hope it resolved the issues even if a jumper was still needed. G

GGG

Unless you have a 691-MB00-01A  and did a wirelist . That is the only way resolve this issue not by guessing.

Jim

Attached are pictures of my backplane and a video of the "1334" running in command mode.

thanks 

JIM

I know this thread is old , but maybe someone will have this issue , and this info may help .

My wife bought me a 6-18086 Pacific 4-6-2 of this line for Christmas , and I finally got around to upgrading it . Here is what I used with the 691-PCB1-05f board . I used an R2LC - CODE 7 receiver , an ASPR1 universal power supply board , and a RS-4 steam sound board for the railsounds . I used just a short draw electro coupler , and everything works like it should . Crew talk , tower com , steam blow off , brake squeal, and the coupler "clanks" along with the air pressure release . Also , the smoke " boost " using aux-1 and 8- or 9 works fine for off , on smoke . Aux -2 turns the headline on and off , and the back up light in the tender corresponded to the direction button on the Cab-1 .

The only caveat, is the road name is a Pennsylvania mikado Jr #3986 and the spoken words " Pennsylvania " on the crew talk . It is much better than the #6-22963 kit that went into these locos ,as the the only spoken phrase was " You are clear , take the green " as well as the unitelligable crew talk in the original kits .