Megatraction? you mean Magnatraction...correct?

all the track that you have listed have insulated ground rails. you need to add ajumper wire and connect each side of the outer rails to create a decent magna traction sticking force.

You need metal/steel track. Magnatraction will not work on stainless steel. If in doubt take a small magnet with you when you make your purchase. Super O or Gargrave will work, I don't think Atlas will.

Actually, fellas, it's Magne-Traction

Magne-Traction is just a magnet inside the loco so any track that is attracted by a magnet will be fine. 

The good thing about Magne-Traction is you never have to worry about throwing rubber tires.  Magne-Traction engines don't have as much tractive force as rubber tires but engines equipped with Magne-Traction are less likely to roll off curves.

Earl

madmax:

     The statement "all the track that you have listed have insulated ground rails" is not correct.

     Lionel Super O has the outer ground rails connected at each end and in the middle of each section just like O and O 27 track so that magne-traction would function properly.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

The above generalization of stainless steel being non-magnetic is incorrect.  Certain grades are magnetic.  I have SS gargraves track and it is magnetic and would work well with magne-traction locos.

TomB 

Dennis,

The old physics teacher in me thanks you for giving that explanation. The subject comes up here periodically, and I usually make that distinction between an electric conductor and a ferromagnetic connection. It is often misunderstood. Good to hear it from someone else too.

Jim

There seems to be a bit of confusion here.  Are we talking about motors, MagneTraction trucks, or both?

    The right side of this page shows how Magne-Traction works.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locoinfo%5Clocp2.pdf

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

MTH's RealTracks WILL NOT WORK with MT.  Engine will start "slip, sliding away" (1970's song!).

My Bad !  There is another thread about MPC pullmore motors with tire traction having poor pulling power, especially the early GP-7/9's. The originator wanted to know if there was another type of motor that could replace the MPC early geep one piece motors, with something more effective. I inadvertantly, went off on a tangent and added his info to this thread; sorry for any confusion;  but the info is still correct.

While the diagram does show flux lines through the track ties, the effect of having this "return path" is minimal in the Lionel train world. 

This diagram, if you follow the link, is provided to demonstrate the various methods used to magnetize the loco wheels.  There is to my knowledge, no requirement mentioned in any Lionel service literature that tracks have steel cross ties for Magne-Traction to work.

The track material is far more important, demonstrated by the effectiveness of Magne-Traction on GarGraves Stainless Steel track, which is completely lacking in any kind of metal ties between running rails.

     Correct. And so to get back to madmax's question- Of the brands he mentions, only Lionel Super O has the three metal ties for Magne-traction to work properly.

     Using Gargraves without any modifications will not let Magne-traction work properly, because the outer rails are not connected to each other. They are isolated.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

It works fine.  Even the stainless.  The type and the amount of material is much more critical than whether the outside rails are connected or not.  There is no need for steel cross ties.

madmax, if you like GarGraves, go for it.   Your trains will run fine on any of the track systems mentioned.

Hi, Very interesting subject. I've done several experiments with magnatraction, track types & traction. I just now did another "seat of the pants" test. Using a mid-late 50s 736 (the one with the small rollers) I felt the pull of the magnets by holding loco upside down & feeling the resistance it takes to lift a straight track section up from wheels. The sections were normal straights, except the Gargraves was cut to 10". Was normal black center rail GG flex track (not stainless rail).

    Ok, the metal ties seem to make quite a difference, as well as the mass of the steel rail. O tubular was the strongest pull by far. SuperO & 027 felt the same. Fastrack (which has only 1 little thin piece of tin connecting outside rails) was dramatically weaker. Gargraves was a little weaker yet, but only slightly so. Of course Atlas O doesn't stick as it has nickel rails. For a hoot I also tried a piece of old T-rail. It felt about the same or slightly stronger that regular O, yet it has zinc ties, but heavy solid steel rails.

    Directly comparing SuperO to Gargraves which looks to have about the same rail mass, SuperO is at least twice as powerful on the attraction. The difference in feel is dramatic.

    Now when it comes to actual traction the rail is interesting. I find no matter the loco, on SuperO it can pull longer trains. Next is O & Gargraves, about a wash. Next is 027 & Fastrack, about a wash. The worst is Atlas O for me. The nickel just seems slipperier. I also found MTH Realtrax the same slippery as Atlas O.
 I've never actually ran trains on T-rail.

     Regarding the locos pulling better on SuperO, I can't say if the loco gets better traction or the track makes the cars pull easier. I've often wondered that. It is very smooth rolling. The smoothest of all.

    Regarding magnatraction itself, I can only do a direct comparison on a 2035 & 2025(rr) the 1952 version with spoke drivers. They are the same motor/body but the 2025 lacks the magnets. Depending on type of cars the 2035 can pull 2-3 more cars. I find the spoke driver 2025 can pull 1-2 cars more than the early 2025 with the smooth nickel(?) tires & baldwin wheels.

      I can't say whether magnatraction really keeps the loco from tipping off the track. I tend to run my trains fast, but not that fast. I suppose it would help, but how much faster you could go remains a mystery to me.

    I'll say this. On my 2035, 736, & 2023 locos the magnets are strong enough to lift unsecured SuperO track off the floor when lifting loco off layout.  

    I have several locos with traction tires. Traction tires can nearly double the tractive force. Way more effective than magnatraction. Adding weight to loco is also way more effective than magnatraction. Adding even 2-3 oz can make a big difference,  depending on the original weight. On very light locos it can nearly double pulling.

      Very best, Don Johnson

To quote an answer to this very question from another forum:

     You can improve the magnetic properties of Gargraves by doing what Lionel did with FasTrack, aka use steel straps to tie the outside rails together (I've done this, it works).  The main poles on magnetraction magnets run across the rails.  If you can place a feromagnetic piece of metal across the ties the induced field will be much higher than if the ties are isolated.  You can induce magnetic effects at a distance but the greater the distance the lower the effect.  You also don't need direct contact like you would for an elecrtical circuit.  A thin piece of paper or plastic that will stop electric current from flowing will have no more effect on a magnetic field than the same air gap distance.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

A lot of so called stainless steel  contains ferrous metal depending on the grade.

Stainless Steel was developed by Henry Ford in 1927 and first used on the Model A and called Rustless Steel.

So if you want to know the quality take a magnet when buying Nuts, Bolts & Track you may be surprised/disappointed at what your actually getting,especially in the big box stores.

Lionel did this for electrical properties, not magnetic.  One strap per section.

Tying the outer rails together might help but Magnetration works as long as the rails are ferrous.  I'd really be surprised if tying them together made a big increase.

I also tried this: home-made magnetraction.  bolt (make a bracket, don't try to drill the magnet) a neodymium magnet to the underside of the powered truck or loco frame above the third (middle) rail: it will noticeably improve traction, in fact, maybe too much.  Just keep in away from the motor or it will interfere with it running.

ADCX Rob:

     No, the answer I posted above was under the following heading (and I quote)

"Magnetraction works better on tubular or Gargraves track?

It was not a discussion of electrical properties.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

Hi Don:  As usual, a very interesting post about your tests and test results.  Try putting a piece of piano wire into the outside rails of the Gargraves track and see if it makes a difference.

For background, at York in the late-1990’s Lionel had a large layout set-up in a tent to demonstrate TMCC.  This was pre-Orange Hall and pre-FasTrack so they had used Gargraves track (instead of their own tubular track!).  Neil Young was there demonstrating TMCC.  He was running early command-control locos with Magne-traction pulling long consists and the layout had grades.  I asked Neil how they got Magne-traction to adhere to the Gargraves Track so well: he responded “we put piano wire in the outside rails”.  I guess his music background helped to come up with that idea.

Too bad I had already laid my Gargraves track a few years before that.

Bill

Geez they can't even agree on track. Do what I said at the beginning of this thread, if in doubt test it with a magnet. If the two stick together your engines will work on it.

My point exactly.  The strap on FasTrack is not for magnetic considerations.

I remember hearing about that.  The magnetic mass is much more important than a physical connection across poles.  As I recall, the piano wire was thread through the larger, lower channel or tube of the GarGraves rail, not the running rail, which simplifies pin placement and enables the use of larger gauge wire for maximum effect.

OK then, Jim Policastro you may want to chime in here, the bottom line is if the rail material is magnetic you will get some benefit from Magne-traction. If the rail materail is magnetic and the outside rails are connected "ferromagneticly?" you will get increased traction since the north and south poles of the magnet are pulling on each other like 2 magnets with their north and south poles connected together which I think was the original intent of the designers of Magne-traction. If it wasn't then it was a serendipitous result.

In this picture the N/S poles are for all intents connected thru the steel bar much like the ties on tubular track, this set up would require more force to seperate than if it was holding 2 pieces , one on each pole.

 Obviuosly the more mass your rails have will effect the magnetic pull and if the outside rails are connected ferromagneticaly even better, electrically connected not so much depending on how it's connected.

Jerry

...Which begs another question, somewhat related...

Should Magne-Traction equipped locos be stored on track, or with steel bars connecting across the wheels?  The engineers at Lionel did not believe so.

baltimoretrainworks:  I have to agree with you. Just as the pictorial diagrams have showed, the magnetic flux/field needs this path of ferris material ie: track rails, track ties, piano wire, etc. to be most effective. Rails of ferris material alone will work, but be less effective.  

                                                                                          In my own experience, I've used the basic truck of the LIONEL two-piece motor without the single collector, not like a  2383 that has the single pick-up inside it's underside.  K-LINE, of old, had brought out the extended  looong straight track sections with multiple tie pieces to match the O72 curve track. If you take the basic motor truck and place it on the rails and sloooowly roll it down the track, you will feel the differecne of the magnetic attraction of the wheels as they pass over each of the track ties - grab and release, grab and release ( release meaning less attraction ).

Also, the quality of the magnet or magnet core, depending on the style of system used (see diagram in above replys) will also play a part in the strenght of the attraction. A magnet that is fully saturated(charged) will have a greater strength than one that is weak. And yes, magnets can be re-charged if they lose their strength.

As far as not tipping over off the track at higher speeds; this works best with the less top heavy diesels with plastic body shells. Steam engines have a higher center of gravity in many cases due to their die-cast shells. At one point, LIONEL actually added another cylindrical magnet to their Berkshire/Northern chassis and that greatly improved the tractive effort of the units. Again, as model trains, these do not have the gross weight that the real engines have on their wheel sets.

The key here is to balance the magnet tractive effect against the ability of the motor to drive the train without causing the motor to overheat and eventually short out.

When LIONEL brought back the magne-traction feature to the F-3's, in the Southern Pacific Daylight scheme, they attempted to used a slightly different methode of the magne-traction effect.  What they did was only use one magnetic axle in the power truck and used a plain steel axle in the companion wheels set of the truck to see if the magnetic flux/field would follow the path:  mag.axle, wheel, track to wheel of plain axle, thru plain axle to opposite wheel to track to wheel of mag. axle and finally back thru the wheel on opposite side of mag. axle to the magnet itself.  Did it work?  Yes, somewhat. Later releases of the magne-traction trucks used two magnetic axles  for the wheel set of the motor truck.  It would seem that the earlier LIONEL CORP. engineers had explored this angle when working on the cheaper sheet metal framed Alco's unitized motor trucks and used two or one magnetic axles for the power plant. Dennis M.

madmax/ADC Rob::

     The original question was in regard to three brands of track- Lionel Super O, Atlas and Gargraves. Of that group only Super O had the outer rails connected which allows the north and south poles of the magnet to connect and thereby create "Magne-traction."

     Lionel showed this originally in a diagram when they introduced Magne-Traction and I showed that diagram in an earlier post.This was pulled from one of their early publications on the subject.

     Others in the thread have shown that with Lionel O and 027(and other tracks with outside rails connected), that the effect is maximized with these tracks.

     A similar question came up at another O Gauge forum and the conclusion was that the two outer rails needed to be connected for maximum effect. I reprinted that post also.

     madmax- I hope this helps you in deciding on which track to choose for your layout.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

Jerry,

That's it basically.

There are many factors involved - most of which probably make little difference in answering the question, "Which track is best for Magne-Traction".

But, the most common ferromagnetic materials are iron, nickel, and cobalt and many of their alloys to varying degrees (but, unfortunately for Atlas, not "nickel silver"). Then there are some of the rare earths, such as neodymium, etc.

The most important variable is the strength of the magnets in the axles or on the loco truck frame (which will vary over time from engine to engine for no apparent reason - magnets are like that!).

That piece of iron between the poles in the photo is usually called a "keeper" which helps maintain the alignment of the magnetic domains. So, I guess, as has been suggested, an engine stored with wheels sitting on a piece of tubular track acting as a keeper "should" maintain its magnetism longer. But, there are lots of other factors involved.

Another big factor is the distance between the wheels and the "mass" of iron. Not sure if extra steel not in direct contact with the wheels would make a difference with all other factors being equal (round top rails vs. flat top rails).

Not getting into which magnetic axle design is best, the type of track vs. magnetic effect is all easy enough to test. If I were still teaching, I'd have a student do some testing and measuring in a controlled environment for a project. But, I guess I'll have to add it to my list of projects for a rainy day.

Jim

The mass of the steel is the contributing factor, not that the rails and ties are completing a "circuit".  More mass to the Super "O" than GarGraves.  A Magnetraction loco will demonstrate more attraction to the rails over the steel ties, less when not over a tie, on the same section of track.

Rob is right.  Years ago, somebody on this forum actually measured the effective magnetic force between Magne-Traction locomotives and various brands of track.  The hands-down winner was AtlasO's Solid Steel track which did not have any conducting connection between the outer rails but did have the greatest mass of steel (solid rail with a hefty cross section - the flat top helped too).