Lionel NYC Empire State Express Set

Eric, Great video also enjoyed the history on this train! That is a beautiful set.

As always Eric.............very well done!

Thank you

Dave

Eric,

Another great review. Also a great looking train. Could not agree with you more about the 21" passenger cars from Lionel.

JohnB

Love your videos Eric - your reviews have influenced quite a few of my recent purchases. Thanks for doing a great job and keeping up with it!

Eric,

I enjoyed your review. Thanks for taking the time to produce this and all the other wonderful videos you do.

I have this set with the 2-pack and I must disagree with you about the passenger cars. While the 21" cars are a step in the right direction, Lionel takes two giant steps backwards with the use of plastic and the elimination of passengers.

It took me a half a day to add passengers to my six cars--- not hard to do but not the best use of my time. Also, my shiny extruded aluminum cars from 25 years ago are far superior to the painted plastic finish on the Empire Express cars.

I cannot understand why manufacturers, including high-end maker Golden Gate Depot, cannot use a technology that was perfected decades ago to produce shiny (like the real ones) METAL passenger cars.

Great review, as always.  I also got this set w/both add-ones and love it - can't wait for the diner to arrive.  I'm interested in painting the interior, as a previous thread on this forum shows, in addition to adding passengers. 

I rode both the Empire State Express and the Pacemaker in the early 40's. I enjoyed your video. Thankyou.

Eric Siegel does it again.  Another great review.

I figure this is a long shot, but I will ask. Are the trucks easy to lower? Lionel did make the intermodal cars with shims so they could be easily lowered or raised. I'd like to two rail a set of these depending on how the trucks are attached.

 I think these cars show great promise with LED lighting, non flicker circuits, nice detailing, etc. I hope this trend continues.

Really nice and comprehensive review....keep em coming!

fcavolo posted:

Eric,

I enjoyed your review. Thanks for taking the time to produce this and all the other wonderful videos you do.

Eric's reviews are the gold standard for this kind of information. Nothing I say below detracts from that.

I have this set with the 2-pack and I must disagree with you about the passenger cars. While the 21" cars are a step in the right direction, Lionel takes two giant steps backwards with the use of plastic and the elimination of passengers.

While I am not so fussed any more about the elimination of passenger figures I have a lot of sympathy with this opinion.  The two things about these cars that bother me most are that (a) all the 21" ABS sets issued to date are based on the ESE bodies and are in that sense "generic" bearing nothing like the resemblance to the prototypes the aluminum 21" cars did and (b) the "super" capacitor-powered lighting takes about 30 seconds to get to full illumination once track power is applied. I don't find the fact that the lights stay on for the same period after track power is turned off very appealing. 

It took me a half a day to add passengers to my six cars--- not hard to do but not the best use of my time. Also, my shiny extruded aluminum cars from 25 years ago are far superior to the painted plastic finish on the Empire Express cars.

I agree about the finish; here's a comparison of the last version of Lionel's 21" aluminum Texas Special observation car with the ABS version showing how the painted plastic looks nothing like the polished stainless steel of the original:

That said, the ability to get at the interior by removing just four screws is a great improvement over the aluminum cars' slot 'n slide arrangement. Trouble is, once inside you have not only got empty seats but a plain vanilla (in terms of no color variation) interior that needs a lot of paintwork to make it look good. Frankly I might not have bought my Texas Special ABS set if I'd known about the lighting and interior color plans but now I've got it I'll hang on - for the time being. 

I cannot understand why manufacturers, including high-end maker Golden Gate Depot, cannot use a technology that was perfected decades ago to produce shiny (like the real ones) METAL passenger cars.

I think GGD is now the only maker left of 21" aluminum body "O" passenger cars. It's plain from what they've said about production issues that the cost of making cars out of extruded aluminum will soon mean that they cannot be offered at realistic price levels - if at all because finding an available manufacturer is an issue in itself. 

Well done again ERIC!!!!!

Hancock52 posted:

fcavolo posted:

Eric,

I enjoyed your review. Thanks for taking the time to produce this and all the other wonderful videos you do...

 

 

 

Guys, thank you for the feedback. GGD does make fantastic passenger cars. Sadly, I don't own any yet...but I'm sure that will change at some point. The new cars from Lionel are by no means perfect, but I think they are a big step forward in terms of putting out a more consistent high quality product. 

 Thanks,

Eric Siegel

Terrific review, as always, Eric.  Gotta agree about the ABS vs metal bodies.  Big, big, difference.  I noticed, too, that the latest incarnation of Lionel Burlington Zephyr trains are, in fact, metal yet are not the shiny polished steel (or aluminum) of the prototype.  They went real far in making this beauty accurate and pinched pennies (or dollars) when it came to the finish.

Another comprehensive product review... as we've come to expect from Eric.  Although I don't draw the same conclusions regarding Lionel's passenger cars.  I passed on the ESE set, because I was able to grab a GGD 8-car ESE set from a TCA member last summer.  There is no comparison, so that pretty much keeps me from going "over the top" on Lionel's new 21" passenger cars.  I do like the LED lighting and the capacitor circuit that helps maintain consistent brightness levels during brief power losses.  That's cool.  But the lack of passengers and the bland vanilla interior on the ESE set both keep me from considering these cars as a major "step forward".  Rather they're simply something we're "settling for" given the overseas manufacturing issues that importers are facing nowadays.  I don't care how easy it is to get inside the cars.  The simple fact remains that we're getting less for our money.

The last Lionel aluminum passenger set I purchased was the Milwaukee Road 6-car set that was produced for the S-3 steam locomotive.  The 4-pack and 2-pack carried $640 and $320 MSRP's, respectively.

When Lionel cancelled the Texas Special 18" aluminum cars, I converted my pre-order to the new Texas Special 21" ABS cars.  They are "nice", and I'll keep them.  But I don't consider them a step forward.  The 4-pack and 2-pack carry a $600 and $300 MSRP, respectively.  The StationSounds diner due out soon also carries a $300 MSRP, and for that handsome price the StationSounds diner will at least get its own product box simply because it's not sharing its box with any other cars.   Individual cars packaged in Lionel's 4-pack and 2-pack don't even get their own individual product box anymore.  So even product packaging hasn't escaped today's bean-counters and their marching-orders to squeeze every possible penny out of the cost equation.  

So let's see... the new cars are a bit longer, and Lionel has gone the route of less expensive ABS production to avoid the issues and costs associated with manufacturing extruded aluminum passenger cars overseas today.  Lighting is LED (an excellent feature), but the interiors are rather bland and look unfinished -- especially those with the vanilla colored interior.  (In that regard, the Texas Special's red interior is a vast improvement over the bland vanilla look used for the ESE set.)  And lastly, packaging has been reduced to a bare minimum... with individual product boxes and foam liners nowhere to be found.

True... Lionel needs to recoup the new tooling costs associated with the cut-over to ABS production.  But Lionel is using the same tooling (so far) across all the liveries offered in its new 21" line-up.  So that should help that goal quicker.

At the end of the day, I like the new Lionel cars.  And I'll selectively purchase a set or two down the road.  But they're "OK"... I don't view them as any kind of major step forward.  All we need to do is look at the Atlas-O CZ offering(s) -- also done in ABS, and there's a night-and-day difference right there.  If both Lionel and Atlas-O offer a similar passenger train in the future, my money will go toward the Atlas-O offering for reasonably similar dollars. 

In a way, Lionel has done a bit of a side-step on us here, since pricing has remained somewhat consistent with the former aluminum cars.  Yet Lionel has managed to avoid all the ongoing challenges and increased expenses associated with aluminum car production overseas.  So once they recoup their new tooling costs, they essentially will be producing a product with MUCH larger profit margins than the former aluminum cars.  And if history is any indication on these matters, enthusiasts will likely watch the prices tick upwards ever-so-slightly with each year.   But the wild-card really revolves around HOW MANY of these 21" sets will sell.  Do THAT many folks really have layouts that do these long slender cars justice?  I don't think so.  But that also didn't stop a healthy number of folks from purchasing a Vision Line Big Boy. 

So that's the way it is.. at least as I see it.  If we want aluminum passenger cars, GGD will likely be the only ticket in town for now.  And only time will tell how long they'll stay in that game, since they're already pushing prices close to $300 per car.  And the Full Vista dome in their upcoming Great Northern Empire Builder will be reportedly done in brass at close to a $750 MSRP.    Admittedly a different league of price-points altogether.  And while I was willing to pay the GGD premium for a special train like the El Capitan high-level cars, I have no need nor desire to pay those prices for "regular" aluminum passenger cars.  The GGD ESE set I bought last summer was $800 for 8 cars in like-new condition.  Pretty much what they sold for when first offered new.  The seller even included his original invoice.   So today's newer production GGD aluminum cars are already way more than that.  As for brass, that's just not even on my radar screen. 

Aside from a few special purchases down the road which I hope to do very selectively, I'm glad I built the bulk of my O-Gauge passenger car roster when I did.  

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

If we want aluminum passenger cars, GGD will likely be the only ticket in town for now.  And only time will tell how long they'll stay in that game, since they're already pushing close to $300 per car.  And the Full Vista dome in their upcoming Great Northern Empire Builder will be reportedly done in brass at close to a $750 MSRP.    

David

David, the GGD list price for the GN Great Dome Lounge (and the Santa Fe version) is  $599.95, not $750. Both will be made in brass. (Don't know how GGD will render the stainless steel finish of the Santa Fe in that material but on their past performance it will be superior.)

Of course for that material and at that price level these cars are in a different universe from both Lionel's and MTH's ABS sets. 

You are right that the average cost of the aluminum cars in related sets is near enough $300 per car. Gulp.

Hancock52 posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

If we want aluminum passenger cars, GGD will likely be the only ticket in town for now.  And only time will tell how long they'll stay in that game, since they're already pushing close to $300 per car.  And the Full Vista dome in their upcoming Great Northern Empire Builder will be reportedly done in brass at close to a $750 MSRP.    

David

David, the GGD list price for the GN Great Dome Lounge (and the Santa Fe version) is  $599.95, not $750. Both will be made in brass. (Don't know how GGD will render the stainless steel finish of the Santa Fe in that material but on their past performance it will be superior.) 

...

Thanks for the update!  Looks like GGD has updated their reservations page to include actual prices.  Up until recently, the Empire Builder prices were TBA.  At April 2016 York, the 3rd Rail folks were hinting at a potential $750-ish price for the brass full dome cars.  That's why I used the word "reportedly" in my earlier post , but it's great to see the price came in lower.  Still very pricey, but it comes with the territory for those playing in that league.

David

Since they're not accurately detailing the interiors, I actually prefer the bland plastic as I plan to pain them myself.  Makes it easier to paint over, no need for primer. 

Four things jump out at me about these cars and this review.
1.) The full width diaphragms look very nice!

2.) The "High-water" ride height. In the words of Frankie Goes To Hollywood..."There's got to be a better way".

3.) The cars overall look good...until...once again you look at the windows. Yes, they are much much better than the previous "stick-on-windows", but, look close and there appears to be daylight showing between the car body and the black window seal. The 18:20 mark will get you in the ballpark. Better off keeping the lights OFF. I just don't understand why Lionel hasn't figured this out yet?

4.) Eric's self-proclaimed "I don't care" attitude and failure to give an unbiased review and note any such discrepancies.

On the plus side, those of us that do care about what gets pushed our way can watch these videos and decide for ourselves if they are worth the purchase.

Great review as always Eric. I am shocked though to see the retail price on the cars and set. That does seem way too much for what you get.  lionel should provide people for the cars. Of they don't install them that's fine but at least include it. What's next engines not having people 

Great review as always Eric.  I have the engine but passed on the cars.  I have two sets of 21 inch K-Line Empire cars.   Ten cars in each set.  The ESE pulls them with ease.  Keep the reviews going I enjoy your style of presenting them.  I am a fan of the new Lionel 21 inch cars.  I picked up the C&O to go behind my Yellowbelly Hudson.

Shucks... I thought this would be about the MPC set from 1976!

Jon  

Livesteam1987 posted:

"That does seem way too much for what you get"

My question to you Livesteam, what price should the cars be?

Thank you.

Charlie

BigJim posted:

Four things jump out at me about these cars and this review.

1.) The full width diaphragms look very nice!

I think, from the pictures, they look like the same one used on the 18 inch cars. I do like them also, but would like to know of a paint that would adhere to the rubber as not all diaphragms were black.

2.) The "High-water" ride height. In the words of Frankie Goes To Hollywood..."There's got to be a better way".

Agree on the ride height. They seem to sit about ¼ inch too high, just going from the pictures. Hoping someone comes up with a solution.

3.) The cars overall look good...until...once again you look at the windows. Yes, they are much much better than the previous "stick-on-windows", but, look close and there appears to be daylight showing between the car body and the black window seal. The 18:20 mark will get you in the ballpark. Better off keeping the lights OFF. I just don't understand why Lionel hasn't figured this out yet?

I have seen the video and the cars in person and the windows are nice, there is no gap. I suspect it’s just the light and viewing angle that makes it (I did not see it) look like there is a light gap.

4.) Eric's self-proclaimed "I don't care" attitude and failure to give an unbiased review and note any such discrepancies.

On the plus side, those of us that do care about what gets pushed our way can watch these videos and decide for ourselves if they are worth the purchase.

This MIGHT be a true statement if not for the obvious fan boys that give a pass to their favorite manufacture but don’t give the same pass to the others, totally NON objective!

In terms of the people and plain interiors, I have no issue with what Lionel has done. Unless they loaded up the cars with at least 40 people in coach, fewer in sleepers, than I would have opened up the cars anyway. I have not seen one Lionel, Atlas, 3^rd Rail, K-line or MTH car that did not need a serious upgrade to the passenger compartment. Honestly, it’s kind of fun and one of the more easy modifications a beginning modeler can do… some people do model here don’t they?

Charlie

Charlie posted:

BigJim posted:

 

4.) Eric's self-proclaimed "I don't care" attitude and failure to give an unbiased review and note any such discrepancies.

On the plus side, those of us that do care about what gets pushed our way can watch these videos and decide for ourselves if they are worth the purchase.

This MIGHT be a true statement if not for the obvious fan boys that give a pass to their favorite manufacture but don’t give the same pass to the others, totally NON objective!

 

Not sure how many of Eric's reviews you have watched, but he has traditionally been more of an MTH fan, especially when it comes to diesels. So he isn't giving an unbiased review to his favorite manufacturer. The truth of the matter is that there are only a few manufacturers that us 3 railers can purchase from. Everyone is going to have their favorites, and there are people who are going to actually LIKE the manufacturers and their products. The status quo seems to be to bash the manufacturers every chance possible, but I commend and respect Eric for giving his honest opinions on products that he purchases with his own money. It is very rare to see Eric be very negative on a product review as he knows how difficult it is for the manufacturers to produce these high end products and that the prices are on the rise not because of company greed, but because of globalization and increasing living standards in the orient.

I am NOT at all trying to speak for Eric by the way. Simply just stating that it is my observation that he gives fantastic, unbiased, and generally upbeat and positive reviews on all the manufacturer's products. Maybe this is why he has a relatively large following and produces videos that many many people watch and base purchases off of.

Charlie posted:

BigJim posted:

 

3.) The cars overall look good...until...once again you look at the windows. Yes, they are much much better than the previous "stick-on-windows", but, look close and there appears to be daylight showing between the car body and the black window seal. The 18:20 mark will get you in the ballpark. Better off keeping the lights OFF. I just don't understand why Lionel hasn't figured this out yet?

I have seen the video and the cars in person and the windows are nice, there is no gap. I suspect it’s just the light and viewing angle that makes it (I did not see it) look like there is a light gap.

 

Charlie,
If you go to the YouTube version of the video and make it full size, you will see what I am talking about.

TrainingDave:

Sorry, to be more clear, this was not directed at Eric, more specifically, to the guys who have stated they have issues with the plain interior, people or lack of, the price and the lights etc. There are other manufactures that have the same or almost the same level of completion and yet, not a peep from the faithful followers. Specifically, GGD cars all need more people, come in plain decoration. Lionel does the same or very similar and all the fan boys come out and state what a rip-off Lionel is. Again, not directed at Eric.

BigJim:

I see what you are talking about, but it is not a gap or light leek. The windows are “plug-fit” from the inside.

Charlie

Guys, these are toy trains.  Enjoy them and have fun.  The engine runs from an electric motor and not a steam boiler.  They also run on three rail track and not two rails like the real one.

Eric, please keep going with your posts.  Being a toy train guy, I love them.   These guys who complain do not buy these trains and complaining about them makes them feel good. 

Who cares who is an MTH fan or a Lionel fan.  Great trains are great trains.    I am very happy with trains today that MTH and Lionel makes for us to buy.   I was around in the seventies and remember the not so good trains  we had available to buy.

I know guys who complain and do not buy a produce as some are not allowed by the wife or they are all flash and no cash.  Complaining makes them feel good and justify the comments they make.  This statement is not directed to anyone on this post just a comment on some I know.

Again Eric,  WELL DONE and well done LIONEL.

I suggest that if Lionel or MTH make trains that you can nit pick to death because of details that may not be prototypically correct.

 it's time for you to go to 2 rail O scale and pay thousands of dollars for prototypically correct locomotives and cars and stop calling people names because they may prefer one manufacture over another. 

Charlie, 

Fan boy is insulting and yet you keep using it. 

Btw., Great job Eric, always enjoy your videos and reviews. 

Personally, of what David brings up about the packaging of Lionel's 21" cars, I prefer the plastic snap in cradles rather than the older individual boxes.

I say this because the new cars were INCREDIBLY easy to unpack and repack if you wanted to take them somewhere, and they fit snug inside every time.

If you needed to repack the older ones with individual boxes, it not only takes longer, but in my experience annoying because the plastic lids would often catch and rip the box's window plastic off from the inside, and it would be tight after the first unpacking. Also, the boxes needed each of the plastic bags around them BEFORE going back in the set box, which also needed its own plastic bag.

Charlie posted:

... Specifically, GGD cars all need more people, come in plain decoration. Lionel does the same or very similar and all the fan boys come out and state what a rip-off Lionel is. ...

Charlie, are you're REALLY trying to compare Lionel's new passenger cars with GGD's???   Really???   That dog won't hunt no-how, no-where, any time, any day...

Sorry if you don't like what the messengers are saying.  But all we're doing is presenting "Product A the way it was" vs. "Product B the way it is now".  Throw in a few price points and do the math.  It doesn't get any more objective than that.

David

P.S.  As an aside when it comes to detailed interiors... one thing I've noticed recently is how poorly the new glues seem to be holding details in place... whether they be people, tables, or whatever.  Seems even glue isn't made as well as it was years ago!    And EVERY importer has this issue -- including GGD.  Heck, pretty soon I'm sure this will become part of Lionel's "party line" answer as to why they no longer include people in their passenger cars.

Charlie posted:

 

BigJim:

I see what you are talking about, but it is not a gap or light leek. The windows are “plug-fit” from the inside.

Charlie

Then you must be looking at something different. It appears that I can see the seat over and under the black line. Then light around the edges.

If that is not so, then what am I seeing...a duck?
Anyway, they look much better with the lights off and much better than the 18" cars!

Looking at one of my 21" ESE coaches in the flesh, there is a < 1mm gap on the bottom of 2 or 3 of the windows.  However, the "black line" that appears to be visible in the photos is present on all windows and is actually the angle where the bottom edge and inside face of the window meet.  I suspect that the answer as to why the seats are visible above and below said line involves things like refractive indexes & geometry and other things from AP Physics that my brain is in no shape to even attempt to recall right now....

Big Jim posted:

Then you must be looking at something different. It appears that I can see the seat over and under the black line. Then light around the edges.

If that is not so, then what am I seeing...a duck?
...

Wow, quite a response. Wasn't expecting this.

Lou Palumbo has a great book out there titled "I never met a train I didn't like". That line pretty much sums it up for my views on this hobby and the way in which i do reviews.

Thanks,

Eric Siegel

Mikado 4501 posted:

Personally, of what David brings up about the packaging of Lionel's 21" cars, I prefer the plastic snap in cradles rather than the older individual boxes.

I say this because the new cars were INCREDIBLY easy to unpack and repack if you wanted to take them somewhere, and they fit snug inside every time.

...

Thomas, that's a good point for folks who pack/unpack their trains a lot.  Can't speak for the way the original Lionel Corporation packaged their passenger cars, since I never owned any.  But since Lionel started reproducing passenger trains (i.e., the Lionel/MPC Pennsy, SP Daylight and N&W Powhattan Arrow trains), cars have always been individually boxed.  In fact some of the original MPC "sets" weren't even sold as sets, per se... rather they were sold as individual cars.  And enthusiasts created their own "sets".  Just sayin...

With Lionel's new approach to packaging their 21" passenger cars, folks will be less inclined to sell these individually on the secondary market... which is actually a good thing.  I always hate seeing sellers on eBay listing passenger car "sets" as individual car transactions via auction.  Most buyers want the whole "set", so buying them piecemeal -- especially via auction -- is a royal nuisance.  Lionel's newest packaging (i.e., without individual boxes) makes it easier to keep the cars together as a set if/when somebody decides to sell their cars down the road.

David

I personally like an upbeat positive reviewer doing the narrative. Everything has flaws. Are they curable?

Eric, I believe you are one of the best things happening for O scale on utube!

I will have to purchase these cars and look at my idea of their flaws and cures. I don't see much wrong for my RR.

Overall it looks like a great release and I applaud Lionel again, for moving O scale forward.  Now if I could get them to have RTR 2 rail O!!! It's getting very close.