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Now, tell us what you were paid per week in 1974.

I was still in school, had a good summer job working in a warehouse. I don't remember what I was paid, maybe I have an old pay stub around somewhere. As I recall, it was more than minimum wage.

Perhaps you are trying to imply that relative to salaries, Lionel trains are no more expensive today then they were then. I don't see the point.
What is more significant is what Lionel Trains cost compared to the other things that people typically buy.
Here is one:
According to the National Association of Movie Theater owners, the average price of a movie ticket in 1974 was 1.89. In 2016 it was $8.65.
So in 1974 a billboard reefer cost a little more than three movie tickets.
Today a billboard reefer is around $60, that is more than eight movie tickets.

Here is a link to my source data: NATO

 

C W Burfle posted:

...
According to the National Association of Movie Theater owners, the average price of a movie ticket in 1974 was 1.89. In 2016 it was $8.65....

not only that, but look at what movies were in the theaters in 1974...

The Sting
American Graffiti
The Exorcist
Serpico
Save the Tiger
Last Tango in Paris
The Way We Were

for 2016 i can't think of more than one or two movies that were even worth the old ticket price.

C W Burfle posted:


So in 1974 a billboard reefer cost a little more than three movie tickets.
Today a billboard reefer is around $60, that is more than eight movie tickets.

Not here in the big city. A billboard reefer is only worth about 4 - 4 1/2 movie tickets! And that might not include the service fee for reserving a seat, which you often need to do. Two people going to a movie, with popcorn and a drink, can easily cost over $50.  No question that movies are a whole lot more expensive than they used to be. But that's another story.

Last edited by breezinup

Trying to scale prices based on other products is difficult, because the inflation curve on some products are going to be very different than others, plus there also is the little thing about what the product offers. 

 

For example, in 1974 a 19" color tv could easily set you back 400 bucks (a deep discount no brand set would cost you less than that, talking name brand), and it likely would have a manual tuner (and that is 1974 dollars, roughly 2k based on standard calculators today). These days you can get a 55" flat panel for that much, and it has stereo sound, high def picture and likely has the ability to stream services over the internet, so you are paying less in real dollars for something that does something much more....try comparing that, and trains would look horrible in comparison.

If you compare the products Lionel put out in 1970, to what you see today, much of it quite frankly was a cheaply made copy of post war products, instead of cast metal frames were all plastic, crappy trucks, cheap couples and so forth, the engines were still using the old open frame engine and mechanical e-unit. The car we are paying for today is generally scale or scale like and from what I have seen, isn't the rubbery plastic boxcar that you could almost bend (gondolas and flat cars could be flexed). That 5 dollar boxcar based on standard measures would be about 25 bucks today, but take into consideration the kind of rolling stock we are comparing it to, and it is comparing two different beasts, you would need to compare it to the high end of what came out then, and see, and even then may not be comparable. 

The other thing to consider is what market you are talking about. Back in the 1970's Lionel was being made by a big corporation, general foods, and was still trying to sell a mass market product (in the car world, rough comparison, something like a chevy nova or olds cutlass), so they kept prices based on that. The lionel of today is selling to a very different market, it is smaller, consisting more of hard core collectors and train hobbyists than mass market, in the car world I would use something like a mid level Audi or BMW rather than mass market car like a Honda civic et al. 

If they were producing the same kinds of things they were in the 1970's, the MPC level of production, today you would be right to say they are more expensive, but they aren't, as much as we complain the level of detail and the quality of these products and the level they are selling to is very, very different than it was in the 1970's, the same way that a 1970's honda is a very different beast then the honda they sell today (pregnant rollerskate, anyone?)

The Gold Chessie was I think the first MPC locomotive that really went up in price. At TCA meets they went for $100 all the time. It didn't last long though. It put the idea for MPC to do limited production products. They sold out right away. You have to remember that us old Lionel fans were starving for new stuff. We bought everything they would make. Don

The Gold Chessie was I think the first MPC locomotive that really went up in price. At TCA meets they went for $100 all the time. It didn't last long though. It put the idea for MPC to do limited production products. They sold out right away. You have to remember that us old Lionel fans were starving for new stuff. We bought everything they would make. Don

Which came first, the Gold Chessie or the Coke set?
As I recall they were the first two limited edition items Lionel made.
Andy Kriswalus told me that he was consulting for Lionel (MPC) when they got started.
He said that he conceived of the Coke set, did all the leg work, and was supposed to get the entire run.
I don't know whether he had anything to do with the Gold Chessie, it never came up.

As I wrote earlier, I passed on the Gold Chessie @$25.
As Don wrote, it's street price went up, I think it went as high as $125-150.
Over time, the price dropped down to around $75, which is what I paid for mine at least 20 years later.
I see a couple of used ones recently sold on Ebay in the $60-$80 range, including shipping.

As a collector, I like having one because it was the first MPC limited edition locomotive, and may have been the first limited edition piece of any kind.  I also like the way it looks.

Some goes for the Coke set.

If you compare the products Lionel put out in 1970, to what you see today, much of it quite frankly was a cheaply made copy of post war products, instead of cast metal frames were all plastic, crappy trucks, cheap couples and so forth, the engines were still using the old open frame engine and mechanical e-unit. The car we are paying for today is generally scale or scale like and from what I have seen, isn't the rubbery plastic boxcar that you could almost bend (gondolas and flat cars could be flexed). That 5 dollar boxcar based on standard measures would be about 25 bucks today, but take into consideration the kind of rolling stock we are comparing it to, and it is comparing two different beasts, you would need to compare it to the high end of what came out then, and see, and even then may not be comparable. 

Comparing MPC trains to what Lionel was making in the 1960's, or even the late 1950's, I think they are very similar. Mechanically, MPC started making improvements over what the Lionel Corp was doing right away.
They made a mistake using scout type rollers, but overall, the diesel truck they developed was better made than the late Postwar Lionel diesel truck. (I've seen more used locos with good gears than bad, including some very high mileage ones)
People complained about the plastic gears splitting. I wonder whether the problem had anything to do with using the wrong lubricants. According to some information I found on the web, using the wrong lubricant can cause the premature failure of plastic parts.
People wanted open frame motors and mechanical e-units.
People would not have accepted can motors or electronic reverse units.

Scale detailed stuff is great for the people who like and can afford to buy.
Sixty dollar boxcars (and up) are a barrier to new people getting into the hobby.

Perhaps I didn't look at the Coke boxcars close enough. I think they list for $85, with a street price around $60. They have metal trucks, other than that, they look to be about the same as a 9200 series boxcar. They do not appear to be scale detailed cars.

Last edited by C W Burfle
Dominic Mazoch posted:

But even with the price of inflation people did not have cable bills, over large houses and notes, cars with more electronic entertainment items than their livingroom, giving children every single whim..... Back in the day.........

Not sure what this has to do with the cost of Lionel products compared to 1974.........this is more the old chestnut about how people complain today about their lives, how people back then were all virtuous and self reliant, how we sacrificed and walked 5 miles uphill in snow, both ways, to go to school......no, cable tv didn't exist, cell phones didn't exist (back then you had the western electric phones you paid for each month), and yes, new houses were much smaller back then, there is no doubt. However, that is wishful thinking, that people were all these frugal, non materialistic people, kids were all these kids wearing hand me downs and the like, and that wasn't true, if they didn't have cable tv and smart phones and computers, they had other things they spent it on (and please, don't give me individual examples, I grew up in a very frugal household, we never had family vacations, we drove second hand cars we fixed ourselves, my dad fixed things around the house, didn't have fancy clothing, the latest toys, etc, we didn't eat out much, yet my siblings and I were able to go to good schools for college). Anyone remember the term keeping up with the joneses? Anyone remember that many people got a new car every couple of years, and many people were buying  multiple new cars that were financed? I hate to tell you, but as early as the 1950's they were writing about people getting the then new credit cards and easy financing on houses and cars, and were up to their eyeballs in debt, that didn't come about only recently.  No, cars didn't have electronic equipment on them, but people did buy cars more expensive then they could really afford, and they bought them loaded with all kinds of gee gaws that did exist, or bought a car with a 454 engine that got 6mpg because it was 'trendy' (then when gas went through the roof, whined about the cost of filling it up, some things never change, during the last gas prices going nuts it was people living in the burbs who bought the huge SUV's and pickups). The 1970's were known as the "me" generation, and the kids of that era were considered selfish, spoiled, given every indulgence.........

C W Burfle posted:

If you compare the products Lionel put out in 1970, to what you see today, much of it quite frankly was a cheaply made copy of post war products, instead of cast metal frames were all plastic, crappy trucks, cheap couples and so forth, the engines were still using the old open frame engine and mechanical e-unit. The car we are paying for today is generally scale or scale like and from what I have seen, isn't the rubbery plastic boxcar that you could almost bend (gondolas and flat cars could be flexed). That 5 dollar boxcar based on standard measures would be about 25 bucks today, but take into consideration the kind of rolling stock we are comparing it to, and it is comparing two different beasts, you would need to compare it to the high end of what came out then, and see, and even then may not be comparable. 

Comparing MPC trains to what Lionel was making in the 1960's, or even the late 1950's, I think they are very similar. Mechanically, MPC started making improvements over what the Lionel Corp was doing right away.
They made a mistake using scout type rollers, but overall, the diesel truck they developed was better made than the late Postwar Lionel diesel truck. (I've seen more used locos with good gears than bad, including some very high mileage ones)
People complained about the plastic gears splitting. I wonder whether the problem had anything to do with using the wrong lubricants. According to some information I found on the web, using the wrong lubricant can cause the premature failure of plastic parts.
People wanted open frame motors and mechanical e-units.
People would not have accepted can motors or electronic reverse units.

Scale detailed stuff is great for the people who like and can afford to buy.
Sixty dollar boxcars (and up) are a barrier to new people getting into the hobby.

Perhaps I didn't look at the Coke boxcars close enough. I think they list for $85, with a street price around $60. They have metal trucks, other than that, they look to be about the same as a 9200 series boxcar. They do not appear to be scale detailed cars.

I don't think people wanted open frame motors and mechanical e-units, in 1974 Lionel could have used DC can motors and an electronic reversing unit that would work fine with the transformer based control, and on a per unit basis would not, I can almost guarantee you, change the price of the engine involved. In 1974 DC can motors were not exotic technology, nor would be an electronic reverse unit, my dad was an EE, my brother a serious electronics hobbyist, and they could have created such a thing, with the open frame motor and mechanical reverse units Lionel had the production technology totally paid for (depreciated), and probably a large backlog of them in inventory. If they worked, people wouldn't have cared for the most part. 

Looking at the Trainland website, I see boxcars in the range of 25-50 bucks, and many of those in the upper end are specially named ones, like a "NY Yankee" box car that by its very nature is going to be more expensive (licensing for one, plus it being a 'collectible'), and if you translate that to 1974 dollars, that is 5-10 bucks. Even that 60 buck boxcar is about 12 bucks in 1974 dollars (using the official inflation rates of 5-1). 

The price list doesn't have any high end engines it looks like, but for example the 1200 dollar engine of today in 1974 if my math holds would be about 240 bucks.....expensive in 1974, and from what I recall of the time a top end MPC engine might have been half of that (talking something like a hudson reproduction), but it also didn't have what that 1200 dollar engine has. Looking at the ordinary diesels on the list, they were running around 40 bucks, with mechanical e-units and open frame motor, which today would be 200, and with that, you are getting into the range of what a lion chief plus unit can run you, which has command control and sound not available in 1974....

Yes, there has been inflation above the level of general inflation with Lionel, but I think you also have to be careful trying to claim that prices on stuff today is outrageous and wasn't expensive in 1974, with salaries of the time and typical cost of living, a 5 buck boxcar might not sound like a lot, but using minimum wage of the time, it likely cost 2.5 hours of work to buy it (leaving out taxes) at 2 an hour, which was the official rate in 1974 (for covered jobs).  Federal minimum wage has not kept up with inflation, it is current 7.90 an hour (and given that with the inflation of the 1970's that 2 buck rate likely had not kept up with prior inflation), so it would cost you a little over 3 hours of work to buy that 25 buck boxcar (which do exist, which are like the 5 buck boxcars people talk about seeing in stores, are discounted).  

I am not saying trains are cheap, but they always have been a discretionary purchase. What made trains cheap back in 1974 was not Lionel pricing IMO, it was that there was a ton of post war trains out there people were trying to get rid of, and it was a flood on the market, there were tons of people where at a garage sale you could get for 50 bucks a lot of stuff, post war hadn't become a collectors market (and then an overheated mess in the 1980's as it became another of the 'get rich quick schemes' of some), and that made it cheap, even with the prices of post war having dropped from those heights, you don't find too many "50 bucks buys it all", in part because people still have this idea it is a collectors item.  

Today Lionel is a bit different, because they are definitely aimed at more affluent buyers who have the money and so forth, and being a speciality niche, they also charge for that, and that has led to some things being priced above their 1974 level (accessories, for example), but I remember that tinplate automated switches were already in the 20 buck range in 1974, and that is pretty much what they go for today, and there are things like lionchief plus sets that to me are priced better than anything they had in 1974, given what it gives you *shrug*.

 

 

CW, I sold a friend one the four Coke sets I had from the 70's and told how much they were going to go up. He still has it and still gives me crap about selling him the set. Not worth much now. There are a bunch of these sets on the bay and none of them are selling. Don

At one point, I decided my boxed, like new, Coke set could go, and I brought it to a couple of local train shows. After zero interest, I decided to just put it away. So I still have it.
I wound up buying a second set without the box, and seem to keep buying and selling the boxcars separately. I just like the way they look.

C W Burfle posted:

People often refer to the 700E to support the idea that Lionel trains were always expensive.
What percentage of their sales did the 700E represent?

I don't know CW I have not done an analysis but just peruse old sales ads.. Standard gauge pre war was not inexpensive and still is not cheap. Even the reproduction new standard gauge is outta sight $$$ and postwar O product was not cheap during the day. MPC 1974 yes cheaper. 

Lionel today is expensive or am I missing something. Legacy, Vision$$$ even Lion Cheif is still $200++ an engine and that's entry level. I collect Lionel new and old, I'm not bashing.

Priced low ? Unless your talking Marx toys and trains.

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