Lionel Pullmor Motor

sic: From what I can tell over the internet, it sounds pretty typical for a worm drive turbine. It will not sound like a 2055 Hudson as that engine has a parallel-plate spur gear drive motor. The turbine has a worm drive motor that is similar to the Berkshire motor drive.

That doesn't sound right at all.

Did you remove the motor, clean the worm gear, and then re lubricate the worm gear?

 Did you oil the motor bearing and axels?

Try removing the motor and running it disconnected from the chassis . How does it sound running by itself ?

Do drivers bind when you turn them without the motor connected?

Hope this helps,

Richard

Well, the second video sure didn't sound right!  I don't know what that grinding sound is, but it doesn't belong there!

It sound like an issue with the armature shaft meshing with the axle gear. Try it without a shim between frame and motor. 

I will take the motor out and test outside of the chassis. 

Richard - yes to all lubrication, no binding. Runs like a top on the track!

Stew - I will try without the shim. 

Here is the motor out of the chassis. When I reassemble, it ran partially around but stopped with the motor running. Gears are not stripped. Very loud with shell on. Any possibility the motor is bad? Granted this engine is my first entry into Postwar so I'm not really sure what is supposed to sound right or wrong. The 2055 I have doesn't sound this loud but may be the gearing?

Check the motor brushes and see how worn they are. The brush springs may need tensioning.

There are two sets of small bearings front and rear I believe 11 each, they may be very dry and need repacking.

Also check the brass drive gear on axle closely for wear. Here are some photos of one I worked on recently. The drive gear on this one was worn and needed replacement.

franktrain

THESE ARE PHOTOS FROM MY 671

An original 681 motor should have 681-121 bearing races (thrust bearing) instead of loose balls. The picture below came from the Train Tender site. Someone certainly could have replaced the original 681 motor with an older one.

Lionel Service Manual pages discuss the importance of making certain the gears mesh properly when reinstalling this sort of motor. Read the pages on the 726 Berkshire (1947), and 671 Turbine. The principles are the same.

If the engine had  shims when you purchased it, it probably needs them. Lionel offered little shims that fit over the motor location pins on the chassis. They were available in a couple of different thicknesses. I have never seen them offered for sale. I have made my own using thin plastic sheeting, a hole punch and a small drill to make the center hole.

What sort of grease are you using?
Shouldn't matter much, just curious.

I think the rattling you hear is localized to the motor.  I would check the bushings that the armature shaft rides on/through for wear. Grab the armature shaft where it comes out of the motor and see if it wiggles. 

I m not and expert, but due the frequency I think are the connecting rod.  Too much  free play.

Remove them and run the engine.

my 2 cents

Andre.

C W Burfle posted:

An original 681 motor should have 681-121 bearing races (thrust bearing) instead of loose balls. The picture below came from the Train Tender site. Someone certainly could have replaced the original 681 motor with an older one.

Lionel Service Manual pages discuss the importance of making certain the gears mesh properly when reinstalling this sort of motor. Read the pages on the 726 Berkshire (1947), and 671 Turbine. The principles are the same.

If the engine had  shims when you purchased it, it probably needs them. Lionel offered little shims that fit over the motor location pins on the chassis. They were available in a couple of different thicknesses. I have never seen them offered for same. I have made my own using thin plastic sheeting, a hole punch and a small drill to make the center hole.

What sort of grease are you using?
Shouldn't matter much, just curious.

Thanks CW, for the correction. The caged bearing are a easier to work with.

franktrain

Sorry for not getting back here sooner. I will likely ask my tech to take a look at it. I will check the axle gear as there have been a few instances where it will stop or skip a beat with the motor running. Will also check to see if there is any slop in the shaft. 

Hopefully it is nothing major....

Here is a so-so video of when I first got it. Sounds somewhat better but then again, this is rather unfamiliar territory for me.

I recently repaired a 671R and 671.  Both had sever wear on the axle gear driven by the worm gear motor.  From the looks of the axle gear in your photos, it is worn.

Like other forum members suggest, check the motor for end play.  Next - run the motor by itself outside the frame and 'driven' gear.  What noise or sluggish behavior occurs?

Replacement axle drive gears are available.  Proper mess of the gears is a must.  Replacement of this gear is possible if you have a press, vice and proper size wheel cups.

bruce

bruce benzie posted:

Replacement of this gear is possible if you have a press, vice and proper size wheel cups.

That certainly thins the field!  I suspect most folks don't have all of the equipment to do this job.

The axle gear may be it but admittedly I'm very leery of taking wheels off. With them pressed on, I can see getting them back on properly and the engine quartered and running reliably a major obstacle. 

That is, unless it was someone that really knew what they were doing. Not totally against it but not comfortable with the idea, as I'm sure many could understand!

If you can't find someone in your neck of the woods I will R&R that gear for you. I have the press and several sets of turbine wheel cups. Rather work on a train in the basement than paint the house in this heat.

I notice two things, The worm gear on the armature is too worn, you will need to replace it.  2. You are using an electronic power pack, this will make postwar motors growl. Use a postwar transformer and see how much of the growl goes away. 3. It looks like the axle gear has been replaced. There are 2 worm gears that are very similar with the 726 prefix. One is 23 tooth, the other is a 25 tooth gear.  Could have the wrong gear put on by mistake. Be sure there is grease in the gearbox!

Stew - Thanks for your generous offer. If I can't get anyone around here on board, I will send you an email. 

Chuck - that isn't my engine's axle gear. My axle gear is covered in grease! I assume replacing the worm gear on the armature is much easier than the axle gear. Would it be wise to do both at the same time? The armature does have a shim and there is little play in the shaft. Based on the video of my motor running out of the gear box, it seems the motor is still very loud. 

 After putting the motor back in, I tried to run it - totally dead. E Unit cycles, no sign of life from the motor. Hmmmm. I bought Postwar thinking I'd be able to run it for decades. Maybe I should cut my losses and buy a Williams Repro turbine. 

Thanks!

How does one go about replacing the worm on the armature? It is cut into the shaft. The shaft would have to be changed out. I do not recall anybody offering replacement shafts for any armature.
You would need a whole new armature.

Honestly, I don't see what Chuck (whom I greatly respect) sees. With all the grease on that worm, how can you tell it's worn? What does a worn worm look like?

And isn't the worm harder than the worm wheel (gear)?

This service manual page discusses the 23 tooth and 25 tooth gears that Chuck mentioned.  It mentions shim #726-127, another item that I don't recall ever seeing on a Lionel parts list. It would be easy enough to make one though.
Scratch this, the page is for a 726 Berkshire, not a turbine.

Sounds perfectly normal. Its just the motor noise emanating and reverberating inside the shell. If its stopped or runs slow now you do not have the motor seated correctly. There is nothing wrong with the gears in the photos.

Tin

The armature gear is cut into the armature shaft, yes that requires replacing the armature. You can tell it is worn out by watching it spin and notice how it looks thinner in the center of the shaft as it is spinning. This will cause the skipping when it is running. What I think happened is if there was loose ball bearing in the motor instead of a thrust bearing that was shown, the original motor has been replaced. You have a 1949 motor that was used in a 671, which looks very similar to the correct 1950 681 motor. The difference is the armature shaft is cut at a different angles. If that was installed in the 681 chassis and the original axle gear was not changed, you get a mis-match of gears, destroying the gear and causing a grinding sound. I guess does you motor have the 5 ball thrust bearing? Maybe I am confusing the pictures above.

When the problem is solved, your 681 is a very reliable engine. If you get stuck, Stew or I can rebuilt it to like new condition.

You can tell it is worn out by watching it spin and notice how it looks thinner in the center of the shaft as it is spinning.

Thanks, I see what you are describing now.

I am confused about the axle gears though. The Lionel service manual lists 671-180 as being the gear for a 681, same as a 671. 
The 681 does use a different armature, but I thought the differences were in the length of the shaft, and where the groove was cut for the e-ring.

You can also re-tighten the field studs with a center punch, this was a common problem for the horizontal motors in the F3's.  With the motor out of the engine, it should be relatively quiet.  I have new motor and or the armature, if interested shoot me a email...

Marty

What I meant with the gears is if  the worm wheel has been replaced in the past, the repair person could have removed the original 671-180 worm wheel and replaced it with the very similar but slightly larger 726 gear

Thanks all for the input and help.

Chuck - thank you for your generous offer to help with this engine. I will be in touch if I can't get anywhere here.

If I'm going to replace the worm gear, I would want to do the axle just to have all good gears. I just want this thing to run and run well for years to come - I've already got more $$ that I'd like in this thing trying to overhaul the mechanics. I also don't want to run the risk of having this thing permanently screwed up with bad quartering, etc on the wheels after removal. It has survived 60 years before I got my hands on it, I want it to run for at least another 60 years.