Lionel RPO and B60 baggage cars.. cool, but bad couplers

The whole truck is terrible. The only metal parts are the wheels and axles. Plastic bolsters? I'll be looking for metal replacements. Because of the plastic, contact strips had to be added to complete the circuit to the outside rail for the lights. Now it has about four times the rolling friction.

edit. Just discovered the sideframes are metal, the bolsters are plastic and the couplers are all diecast including the release lever.

Pete

Norton posted:

The whole truck is terrible. The only metal parts are the wheels and axles. Plastic sideframes and bolsters? Give me a break. I'll be looking for metal replacements.

Pete

Wow! At twice the price of a Weaver  model yet no die cast trucks and couplers?

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Norton posted:

The whole truck is terrible. The only metal parts are the wheels and axles. Plastic sideframes and bolsters? Give me a break. I'll be looking for metal replacements.

Pete

Wow! At twice the price of a Weaver  model yet no die cast trucks and couplers?

It's a Weaver design thumb tack truck no??

Lionel "had" the best functional- sprung die cast trucks in o guage with the hidden uncoupling tab.

These "new" trucks are a HUGE step backwards. I guess they're a little easier for the 10 guys converting to kadees.

The couplers are removable but its not the Weaver design. 

Pete

I have a couple of the Weaver B60 baggage cars, had the same problem with couplers opening intermittently in long trains. Not a good thing in a baggage car... I confess I simply wrapped the shanks with fine, bare copper wire - it's reversible, and the couplers stay closed.

Jan

You will be seeing mine on eBay shortly. Poor trucks, couplers; the plastic color is wrong and they are expensive!  Very disappointed.

Billy C

I am sorry to hear of your experience, but not at all surprised. When Lionel made its disastrous decision approximately a year ago, concerning its scale passenger and freight cars, to disenfranchise its core 3-rail base by abandoning its longstanding industry leading die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs and replacing them with vastly inferior partially die-cast, non-sprung trucks and ugly thumb tack couplers, I made a decision not to buy any of the new scale cars until Lionel came to its senses and reversed course. I know many other Lionel customers made that same choice. To date, Lionel has doubled down on its decision, but I think it is inevitable that it will reverse course, given the outcry from its base and declining sales of these products.     

RickO posted:

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Norton posted:

The whole truck is terrible. The only metal parts are the wheels and axles. Plastic sideframes and bolsters? Give me a break. I'll be looking for metal replacements.

Pete

Wow! At twice the price of a Weaver  model yet no die cast trucks and couplers?

It's a Weaver design thumb tack truck no??

Lionel "had" the best functional- sprung die cast trucks in o guage with the hidden uncoupling tab.

These "new" trucks are a HUGE step backwards. I guess they're a little easier for the 10 guys converting to kadees.

Totally agree. Just one correction, there are 11 guys converting to Kadees. And they have to pay the cost of the cars plus the cost of the Kadees. 

They should  just sell them without trucks.

This is bad.  Such a nice looking car too!  If it makes you feel any better, the Pennsy often ran their "head-end" traffic on the rear of the train...

Lionel has seemed to lost their commitment to excellence.

Jon

I am one of the 11 customers that remove the lobster claws from Lionel cars and install kadee couplers.  The old truck that you are all lamenting was simple to cut in order drop away the claw.  In terms of changing the truck, Lionel did not do any big favor for customers like me that make the conversion.  I don't know the real reason for design change, but I can tell you it was not a "game changer" for us 11 that make the conversion.  I do appreciate the pre-driled holes in the cars to install the Kadee draft gearbox.  Point is, if Lionel goes back to the old truck we 11 would have no complaints.

If you go back and look at the thread in which Lionel announced the justification for the new truck design, in addition to ease of Kadee conversion, it was also mentioned that the design allowed things like SKU commonization and other cost savings that had zero benefit to the end user. These were the real reasons, the stuff about Kadee users was spin.  In 2012, we sold off our traditional stuff and converted the layout to scale. In addition to Legacy locomotives, we have bought over 200 pieces of Lionel rolling stock.  Admittedly, some was used and NOS, but most was purchased new. We have bought literally nothing since the trucks were “upgraded” and don’t intend to. At some point, one simply has to vote with his wallet. 

FWIW my Weaver baggage car couplers came undone all the time so I wrapped electrical tape around them. Problem solved. I understand a lot of you guys don't like the new couplers, but if you don't like the thumbtack you have two easy solutions. Cut it off with a dremel or put Kadees on. While I looked the old design trucks too, I've come to find that the KD's look so much better I've begun putting them on all my cars. Not hard to do. 

banelson posted:

I had a chance over the last few days to open up some fun things and get them running.  I like the looks of the RPO and B60 baggage cars a lot, but the couplers are terrible.  

I ended up with a PRR B60 baggage car that holds the cars behind it for a while...  One of the RPO cars works fine, but the other couple wont hold at all so I can’t use it.  Anyone know of any easy fixes for these couplers?  They are really terrible.   I want to run them but literally right now can’t run the MR car, and the PRR car has to be watched because it occasionally leaves the rest of the train behind....

Thanks!

Ben  

Super glue 😉

Not a great solution for a new car, but on the friction issue I plan on taking the 3rd shoes off my Weaver B60s and running them without lights.  Doing the same thing with all my baggage cars.  Saves amps and allows for more cars.

I used to one of the 12 that converted 3R cars to Kadee, now I just moved into 2 rail for all my 1950's PRR and CNJ.   That's how it got to 11.  Converting the Weaver cars over because they are very good cars.  MTH R50's are next. 

I suppose for now I will work with a temporary solution as mentioned above.  And knowing me that will end up being the long term solution... 

I do think Lionel should reconsider these couplers and agree it will keep me from ordering their new freight cars going forward.  

Thanks all. Merry Christmas.

Ben 

Until folks learn to return defective items the manufacturers will never take steps to improve.  They'll just laugh all the way to the bank.

-Greg

Above I posted trucks are plastic. I have to correct that after discovering the sideframes are indeed metal but the bolster is plastic. That and the fact the frame is plastic is what required the use of contact strips on the wheels.

In the process of trying to make the couplers more reliable I found the uncoupling arm is die cast. Normally these are sheet steel. I went to remove the thumbtack thinking the added weight made them open easier especially if you hit a bump or high track joint but broke the arm in the process.

I replaced the couplers with some other magnetic couplers in my junk box. Most likely Williams after a TMCC upgrade. I drilled out the thumbtack rivet and they now seem pretty secure. These too have side tabs so can still be uncoupled manually. I have never had a train uncouple from a Williams engine even pulling well over 30 cars so this head end car should be able to shoulder its load.

I also adjusted the sideframes to make the wheels spin as easy as possible. One was pretty tight and was barely turning.

Pete

Weaver Pennsy B60 baggage. 

The Weaver Pennsy  RPO is ??  

I assume both molds and work went to Lionel.  

The answers simple, if we do not order, the message will be received. Making trains that Look Good, but are low in quality and durability, will cause many of us Operators/Collectors, to go other directions with are hard earned dollars... I liked the trucks with the hidden tabs Much better....Only time will tell. Merry Christmas and Happy Railroading...

T4TT posted:

I am one of the 11 customers that remove the lobster claws from Lionel cars and install kadee couplers.  The old truck that you are all lamenting was simple to cut in order drop away the claw.  In terms of changing the truck, Lionel did not do any big favor for customers like me that make the conversion.  I don't know the real reason for design change, but I can tell you it was not a "game changer" for us 11 that make the conversion.  I do appreciate the pre-driled holes in the cars to install the Kadee draft gearbox.  Point is, if Lionel goes back to the old truck we 11 would have no complaints.

I said that from the beginning. All you guys wanted was mounting holes cause you cut the claw off anyway. Why the engineer made that decision is beyond me. But, he left the company. 

As stated time & time again on this forum - the only way to solve these problems is to vote with your dollars.  As long as you, as a group, keeping buying this substandard stuff - they will keep producing it.  NOW, what are you guys waiting for - let us begin to follow this man's suggestion - OR - quit the constant whining & take what they offer without comment.    REMEMBER, the folks at Lionel like regular PAY CHECKS - their bosses like PROFITS  just as much as you folks like your TRAINS!  The majority of us have more trains than we need OR even really want - SO, there is no excuse for us to put up with this nonsense.

Ok, here is my RPO now with Williams couplers minus the thumbtack. For the guys  who still prefer lobster claws over Kadees one big plus of these couplers is they have the same mount as the majority of conventional engines. That means they are easy to swap out for longer or shorter couplers. Try that with the more common riveted on passenger car coupler like the one on the Lionel 18" on the right. The couplers are the more common 2" length. If these were replaced with 1 3/4" couplers the diaphrams would touch assuming it was another Weaver based car. It also means these could be replaced with electro couplers. Add an R2LC and have some fun. Who needs kadees now? Not me.

Pete

Ok, looking at the picture and now that it has been reported the side frames are diecast...…. one should be able to remove the wipers and move the wires from the wipers to the screws that hold on the side frames to the bolster, and actually you only need one ground wire to one of the side frames as you have a metal axle and wheels...….   now for a person converting to 2 rail operations they will need the wipers...….

as for the plastic bolster I see no issues with that, the atlas Troop sleepers and Weaver troop sleepers used a plastic bolster and I have had zero issues with that part

Mike, after playing with the trucks I think the position of the sideframes can have a greater affect on rolling friction than the wipers. When there is sufficient axle sideplay the wheel will spin about a revolution with your finger, if too tight they stop turning imediately. Its just a matter of loosening the two screws that hold the sideframe to the bolster, spreading them apart and retightening the screws.

The axles ride in bronze bushings and are not needle point. With miles they may loosen up some more.

Pete

Theses are simple things that a model railroader would be able to figure out, however this hobby (dose not matter the scale) has turned into a Ready to Run group and every one expects everything to be perfect when the items are not assembled by model railroaders (again this is true in all scales).  how many times I have seen rtr trucks screwed on to tight, or wheels rubbing on the bottom of train cars.

I have converted several weaver 2 rail troop sleepers to 3-rail, in order to do that I had to figure out a way to modify the bolsters to be shorter length as the weaver troop cars had long axles, at first  I used some metal bolsters, however I ended up modifying the plastic bolster on the weaver cars to use the shorter axles used by all 3-rail manufactures

Well, as I said earlier, making a good looking car is one thing, but, after rolling this car on my layout, it’s very noisy, and the trucks seem stiff to turn. What’s with this wheel set? I will have to see the product in person before buying, this is a beautiful car, but will look better on a shelf. It’s sad.  Having copper wipers for electrical pick up is flimsy, I personally like the metal trucks either with 6 wheels or 4 wheels and the electrical pickup roller in the center of the wheel.   No more BTO for me, I will have to see a sample of the engine or car or accessory before I venture to purchase. It’s sort of sad......My L&N Car is Beautiful, just not built to last if running in a train.....Happy Railroading....

leapinlarry posted:

Well, as I said earlier, making a good looking car is one thing, but, after rolling this car on my layout, it’s very noisy, and the trucks seem stiff to turn. What’s with this wheel set? I will have to see the product in person before buying, this is a beautiful car, but will look better on a shelf. It’s sad.  Having copper wipers for electrical pick up is flimsy, I personally like the metal trucks either with 6 wheels or 4 wheels and the electrical pickup roller in the center of the wheel.   No more BTO for me, I will have to see a sample of the engine or car or accessory before I venture to purchase. It’s sort of sad......My B&O Car is Beautiful, just not built to last if running in a train.....Happy Railroading....

Larry, read the posts above. A few minutes with a screwdriver and you can greatly improve rolling resistance.

Pete

Sure wish this thread would have started a month earlier!!!!

Ron

Mike CT posted:

Weaver Pennsy B60 baggage. 

The Weaver Pennsy  RPO is ??  

I assume both molds and work went to Lionel.  

They did. Believe the RPO is modeled from a Norfolk and Western car.

IIRC didn't the Weaver RPO and Baggage cars come with a Thumbtack uncoupler? 

Norton, Thank You for the great tip, will do. My problem is I am spoiled, we build our layouts, use excellent track, wide radius curves, the best of switches, this is why I expect the best wheelsets, and the older passenger cars, and most other Rolling stock, 2000 thru 2008 all we’re much better. Even K-Line trucks and MTH and Atlas O trucks are better.  It’s pricy for whats expected.  I am basically an operator, so I like good, quality oriented rolling cars. I uses Atlas O track, Ross turnouts, placed on 1/4 cork roadbed, attached to Homasote over 5/8 plywood. One can run 5 trains on my layout and simply hear the clickety clack of any train and have a nice conversation with friends while running trains. That’s with all the Rail sounds off. Now, with the sounds turned up, it’s awesome....

I know we live in changing times, I may be expecting to much, but, before I make purchases in the future, I will want to see the product first. I can say this because of my recent purchase of the Sante Fe ABBA.  It’s nice, but the electro couplers on both B units really stick out. Really, in wish they were built with both dummy couplers.  $1600 later, it’s to late.  I can live with them, but, if I had seen them beforehand, I would have just bought the AA set.  Learning from experience, I plan to be much more cautious.. I love the Legacy System.

Happy Railroading, and Happy New Year to all......

Larry, I agree we shouldn't have to fix new trains but compared to the issues with the 21" streamliners and the new PE cars, this is trivial. At least I have not read anything about bad paint or broken parts. I am curious if these are made in North Carolina with the other Lionscale cars??

I now wish all of the Lionel passenger cars used this type of coupler, just bin the die cast part for a steel part. Lionel cars have always coupled in the next zip code and this would make it much easier to alter that.

Pete

All things considered, it’s a keeper, and sorry about the negativity I displayed. I cleaned track today, and began at 9:30 AM, and still cleaning. I think Lionel and the other manufacturers should Compete in Quality Control. That would be a Win Win....Happy Railroading 

Picked up my Lionel B60 baggage car from Side Track today.  Went down to the layout for the first time in months and compared it with my Weaver B60 baggage car.  Except for the coupler arm and electrical wiper connections/wires, they look exactly the same.  Here is a picture of the two trucks; the Lionel is on the right and the Weaver is on the left.

The bolsters are the same so the screw holes on the Weaver may have been for 2-rail electrical pick up.  Not sure why Lionel could not have used the same common rail connection as the Weaver did for their 3 rail version.   Also, it seems like there would be less friction if the wipes were on the axels.  

The cars have slightly different paint with the Lionel car a bit darker.  The flash made the cars look more different then they actually are.

Frankly, the Lionel car looks really nice.  It will be a while before I see how well it runs.

Do the new Lionel passenger cars also have these couplers? I.e. the new heavyweight cars just released.... I think they are neat cars but wouldn’t want a string of cars with those couplers. 

Ben 

Had the problem with one coupler on the RPO. Running with the baggage and two MTH 70 foot cars behind. Moved the RPO to second car and turned the problem coupler to the side facing the two MTH cars. Train stayed together . Might consider going to kadees. 

banelson posted:

Do the new Lionel passenger cars also have these couplers? I.e. the new heavyweight cars just released.... I think they are neat cars but wouldn’t want a string of cars with those couplers. 

Ben 

Hello Ben. Yes, sadly, all Lionel rolling stock - passenger and freight - now has the cheapo/plastic/non-sprung/thumbtack trucks. The whole lineup has been “upgraded.”

The RPO couplers have no plastic parts except the T bar which all magnetic couplers of this design use. The only similarity is the use of the thumbtack.

Pete