Lionel's Big Announcement 5/10 - 150 Years in the Making

Dave Olson posted:

I'll clear up the technical/features:

• Locomotive has motor and headlight LED.
• Tender has the Legacy electronics. This includes the BEMC, radio board, and track IR.
  • Using the BEMC means the engine will not be speed tuned to be able to lash-up with other types of Legacy locos, but two of these 4-4-0s can be lashed-up. Using the BEMC also means these have DCC capabilities as well as conventional operation.
  • Legacy means 200 speed steps, track IR, lighting features, and more.
  • RUN/PGM switch under toolbox detail

 

The separately sold passenger car that is equipped with sounds will include the following:

• RSL3 - Legacy RailSounds. Quilling whistle!
• RUN/PGM switch and volume pot
  • For best operation, the loco and sound car will be programmed as the same TMCC ID number
• 40mm speaker standard in our Legacy engines. While it's not possible to fit the sounds in the engine/tender, using the sound car allows us to fit in the electronics/speaker that makes Legacy RailSounds better than any other system available.

 

Hope this answers any lingering questions.

Dave

 

Will the Lionel Store Exclusive set come in a special box, or will it just be the 2 engines and cars in their own boxes like the non BTO ones?

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Since they have DCS for HO, not to mention smoke and sound, they may be better positioned with the right sized electronics package to do a scale model of the 4-4-0.

Landsteiner posted:

If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

That would be my guess as well, but it's just a guess. Get an order in with your favorite dealer now or just wait until after release when one hits the secondary market. And, of course, there's always the possibility that your dealer may order one or more "extras" if he or she is willing to take a chance. Probably would not be a bad idea.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Since they have DCS for HO, not to mention smoke and sound, they may be better positioned with the right sized electronics package to do a scale model of the 4-4-0.

Wishful thinking.  If MTH started today, by the time the locomotives go through the product development cycle and scheduling, the market passions for a true 1/4" scale Promontory set will have passed and will have likely been satisfied by Lionel's hybrids.

Rusty

Probably true, but they could make them.

Rusty Traque posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Craignor posted:

I bet Mike and Andy are working on new scale 4-4-0’s right now that will have smoke, whistle steam, and sounds, for less money...and you will see them in the next catalog.

Since they have DCS for HO, not to mention smoke and sound, they may be better positioned with the right sized electronics package to do a scale model of the 4-4-0.

Wishful thinking.  If MTH started today, by the time the locomotives go through the product development cycle and scheduling, the market passions for a true 1/4" scale Promontory set will have passed and will have likely been satisfied by Lionel's hybrids.

Rusty

I would think it would be tough getting to reasonable numbers.  The number of buyers has been diluted with the Hybrids and I think the 4-4-0 locomotives are more into a niche market.  Looking at the total numbers for manufacture, the market is not that large.  After all, I would think 150 of the special 2 piece set on the store website would be a brisk seller.  It will be interesting to see how fast they sell.

I purchased the 2 car set.  Wont be here until 2020.  I don't think there is enough market for both.  Maybe MTH can make something with the same splash.  No thuds allowed,

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.

That right there is ominous sounding for my 3-rail friends.

Andre

May have missed it, are the passenger cars brass or plastic ?

laming posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.

That right there is ominous sounding for my 3-rail friends.

Andre

The sky has supposedly been falling on the 3 rail O scale hobby for almost 20 years....yet here we are, with enough people to support Lionel, MTH, and a host of other manufacturers.

Also, think about how much more tooling both Lionel and MTH have now.....compared to what Lionel had as recently as 1990. 

In respectful memory of an old Member who sadly passed away, we're not quite dead yet.

MTH has actually been making 19th century locos for years, including 4-4-0’s with sound and smoke, yeah:

http://mthtrains.com/20-3595-1

I might be a buyer if they would lose the “wireless tether”

 I think that Lionel has offered something nice for the golden spike anniversary, Now lets see if they will do a run of the vision bigboy 4014 with oil tender they have the parts just change the coal tender with the oil fired one from the FEF I still think people would buy it. I know I would

Well, since I'm going to my LTS this weekend, I'll chat with them about these and see what they think. Hopefully they got the press release as sometimes we find out more by rumors than they get in normal communications that should be going through.

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.  This plus the timing suggests that MTH isn't making a scale 4-4-0 for the Promontory anniversary to me.  They are much too savvy marketers to announce this project in the Oct 2019 catalog when the event was in May 2019. If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

Actually, I am surprised that Lionel didn’t think far enough ahead to have its offering available now when interest is at its highest. I can understand to some degree the new hybrid line since it is all special order, but the traditional 150th stuff (introduced in the Vol. 1 2019 catalog)  should be in hobby shops right now, not late in the year. 

Dave Warburton posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.  This plus the timing suggests that MTH isn't making a scale 4-4-0 for the Promontory anniversary to me.  They are much too savvy marketers to announce this project in the Oct 2019 catalog when the event was in May 2019. If you want a three rail O gauge scale loco of these two locos, or one of them, you will likely be buying Lionel products.  

Actually, I am surprised that Lionel didn’t think far enough ahead to have its offering available now when interest is at its highest. I can understand to some degree the new hybrid line since it is all special order, but the traditional 150th stuff (introduced in the Vol. 1 2019 catalog)  should be in hobby shops right now, not late in the year. 

I thought the same thing. Lionel cant even show a photo of the loco or a car, just sketches.

I would really like to see Lionel do the Big Boy and the Living Legend..I bet Dave could add some great smoke features

Berkshire President posted:

The sky has supposedly been falling on the 3 rail O scale hobby for almost 20 years....yet here we are, with enough people to support Lionel, MTH, and a host of other manufacturers.

Also, think about how much more tooling both Lionel and MTH have now.....compared to what Lionel had as recently as 1990. 

In respectful memory of an old Member who sadly passed away, we're not quite dead yet.

To clarify:

I have no doubt that 3-rail will survive for the foreseeable future. That was not my lament.

My lament is for what may be lack of newly tooled content (in this case from MTH) in view of those that participate in 3-rail. New product(s) add(s) excitement to the hobby and helps to invigorate the hobby.  That will be lacking, from MTH, anyway.

Keep in mind also that this is not a concern for me (I'm in HO), but my 3-rail friends that are here.

Andre

So thinking about these 4-4-0's got me overly enthusiastic about the out of scale General type locos.   I've had the LCCA Civil War set of locos, and I've ordered the Jupiter and CP119 with LionChief now, and, in a fit of total overkill will probably order the CP119 scale loco and the two CP passenger cars that go with it.

Question for those more knowledgeable.  What freight or passenger cars that have been made over the years would you run with the LCCA Civil War set of the Texas and the General, and with the out of scale Jupiter and CP119?  I know Lionel has made many freight and passenger cars over the last 70 years or so.  They've got a set, still available,  the Five Star General from 2017.  I suppose I could get that for the rolling stock (horse and two passenger cars).  What has MTH or K-Line or 3rd Rail done in the way of toy rolling stock, if anything?

Landsteiner posted:

So thinking about these 4-4-0's got me overly enthusiastic about the out of scale General type locos.   I've had the LCCA Civil War set of locos, and I've ordered the Jupiter and CP119 with LionChief now, and, in a fit of total overkill will probably order the CP119 scale loco and the two CP passenger cars that go with it.

Question for those more knowledgeable.  What freight or passenger cars that have been made over the years would you run with the LCCA Civil War set of the Texas and the General, and with the out of scale Jupiter and CP119?  I know Lionel has made many freight and passenger cars over the last 70 years or so.  They've got a set, still available,  the Five Star General from 2017.  I suppose I could get that for the rolling stock (horse and two passenger cars).  What has MTH or K-Line or 3rd Rail done in the way of toy rolling stock, if anything?

I'm pretty sure (was reviewing the MTH 2019 V2 catalog today when placing a pre-order) MTH has cataloged a set of Overton Passenger cars meant to go with each of their Railking CP119 and Jupiter offerings (there was one each for CP, UP, and also the Long Island Engine they had on the same page).

-Dave

Landsteiner posted:

What has MTH or K-Line or 3rd Rail done in the way of toy rolling stock, if anything?

MTH has done a series of late 1800's freight cars in RailKing over the years, also slightly oversized.

Rusty

Craignor posted:

MTH has actually been making 19th century locos for years, including 4-4-0’s with sound and smoke, yeah:

http://mthtrains.com/20-3595-1

I might be a buyer if they would lose the “wireless tether”

There was a lot of progress in locomotive production during the 19th century, so what you're showing is not the same as what Lionel is producing....  The 4-4-0's you're showing are far larger than the 1860's 4-4-0's that were present at Promontory and about 30 years newer.

Jake,

Thanks. You are correct, I realized that AFTER my post.

Its been a long time since I've posted, but I notice that the posts are still the same. 

Lots of price sensitivity.  Trust me, I understand that well.

Desire for ever more features (which clashes with the preceding).

Constant comparisons of apples and oranges. 

Kudos from enthusiasts of the item, grousing from those who don't really care.

So, let me put in my oar:

The folks complaining about price have no idea of what it costs to build a commercial model.  The amount of capital which is invested for the entire run.  The amount of labor every single extra little detail part adds to price.  The very high costs for painting complex schemes like those required for 19th Century railroading.

I understand.  You have no direct point of comparison.  I do. So let me make a couple of points:

1.  Electronics.  The reason a lot of 0-gauge electronics is so large is because of the power and amperage used.  Sure an HO board is smaller, but then it would blow the very first time your engine derailed.

2.  Sound.  Putting sound in a follow-on car is unavoidable.  Its the speaker, you see.  We in 0-gauge demand large, high-output speakers or else complain the sound is tinny.  If they used a speaker small enough to fit in the engine or tender, you same folks will be loudly complaining about the poor sound quality.  Remember it is the speaker which mostly decides sound quality and size DOES matter here.

3.  Paint.  I'm sorry, but it costs just a few dollars to paint a loco black and add some transfer pinstripes or numbers.  The complexity of paint schemes adds a vast amount of cost to a model.  The most expensive single cost in my models was the paint, it cost hundreds of dollars per unit.  I know they are getting it a lot cheaper, but I still expect is is very expensive.  Way more expensive than black.  So apples and oranges anyone?

4.  Design.  Design costs are rising constantly, the wages of skilled CAD or 3D designers is rising, not falling.  Even in China.  While it is true that the basic design of these locos are probably knock offs of the ones built by Precision Scale back in the '90s, a lot of the design work has to be made from scratch.  I'm sure they are using different elements of running gear and die casting tooling has a high up-front cost which needs to be amortized.  On a limited run model, this amortization is probably quite considerable.

So there are some things to consider in a nutshell.  I applaud Lionel for taking the leap into the past, I was getting sick of seeing new versions of their horrible General model and of course their Lincoln set was another Precision Scale knock off and their Best Friend was based on the 1920s replica and not the real one.  But the Stourbridge Lion was definitely cool.

In fact, if they are interested in some nearly completed CAD and 3D drawings of some great locos, they can contact me.  They're for sale.

Dave

Thanks for the information to all who responded.  Found some MTH W.A.R.R. rolling stock for my Civil War toy locos from LCCA representing the great locomotive chase, and some Lionel W.A.R.R. passenger cars/horse car as part of a 2017 set.  Anyone want the locomotive as I think two 4-4-0s plus the scale CP 4-4-0 is probably quite enough?  Should have remembered the current MTH catalog items, but just ordered a few from Mr. Muffin.  Nice toys .

The sky has been falling on Lionel's demise since I started buying trains in the late 60's and people are still saying it's not long before Lionel becomes a distant memory. Yes it will happen one day but not in the near future. 

As far as 4-4-0's being announced this past week, they seem to be very nice but I just cannot afford to buy them. Buy the oversize ones from Lionel or MTH? Not sure, I have to look at the them in person to see if I would like them. I usually run modern scale diesels and only have one steam engine, a scale camelback. Although I do like 4-4-0's and I would like to add these types to my layout. But would these look ok with my other scale engines or just run them and have fun. 

Dave

david1 posted:

 Although I do like 4-4-0's and I would like to add these types to my layout. But would these look ok with my other scale engines or just run them and have fun. 

Dave

Would they? Yes they would. During the 100th anniversary of the Civil War, the General made a tour of the engine and a passenger car with exhibit dioramas of the Great Locomotive Chase. Just as I was involved in piloting WW2 war planes around the country and landing at airports with modern jets, we were hits at each place as are any steam engines when they are running in a modern world of engines.          So run your 4-4-0  on your modern railroad and they can be on a siding as an exhibit when not running.

fredt posted:

Interesting set.  Does anyone know if the legacy system on these includes the IR sensor? I do not see any indication in the descriptions. It really would be nice to run them on a controlled layout.

Yes all of the engines are equipped with the IR sensor under the tender.

Quick update - as promised in our announcement and earlier posts, we've decided to backdate the Pennsy unit into the late 1880s. This means Russia Iron jacketing on the boiler and stack and just a little more color all around. Still stately, stylish and very Pennsy - but a much vibrant locomotive more in keeping with the others in this series. Here's the new art!

As of today, we've sold through 1/3 of our sets on lionelstore.com with good numbers all around. Thank you to all who have already helped make this project a success.

Thanks Ryan!  That Pennsy looks fantastic...  you just sold me one of them too!

laming posted:

Landsteiner posted:

Andy, in his Notch6 podcast on the last catalog said that the shrinking market did not justify MTH making much if any new tooling.

That right there is ominous sounding for my 3-rail friends.

Andre

Maybe that says more about MTH than the overall 3 rail market.

All I know is, this offering is a huge swing and a miss for my taste, but then I was lost at steam.

Pennsy looks awesome Ryan.

I’m curious as to how hard it would be or feasible (yes all be it at the price point you shouldn’t need to) but to install a super chuffer board and or an HO chuff & or an HO smoke unit installed in the unit. Or possibly retrofit an MTH smoke unit that was designed for a 1/48 scale 4-4-0 and make that work....just some options and like I said at the price point Lionel should have already installed this equipment, but I wonder if the above mentioned options would work.

Will the Lionel Store Exclusive set come in a special box, or will it just be the 2 engines and cars in their own boxes like the regular BTO ones?

Does anyone know?

Did some research regarding PRR 573... Found reference to it in "Locomotives of the Pennsylvania Railroad Volume 1, The Early Years, 1848-1874". A side view drawing can be found on page 162 of the paperback edition. It was a class C locomotive, used for fast freight and passenger traffic (the original PRR engine classifications used from 1868 thru 1897, not the revised one that everyone knows about) built in Dec 1872 in Altoona. It was renumbered to the Grand Rapids & Indiana as #56 in 1883.

SandJam posted:

Will the Lionel Store Exclusive set come in a special box, or will it just be the 2 engines and cars in their own boxes like the regular BTO ones?

 

Does anyone know?

Good question!  Lets see if I do this right : @Conrail6358

-Dave

I'll have to watch when I get home on FB as Ryan had said they would talk more about these engines on the Ryan & Dave show today.

Well, I am going to wait for the catalog to come out. I am interested in these, but I have to wait and see what other competition is driving the catalog. If I have some room for these, I will get both Jupiter, 119, and the Pennsylvania offering. Just have to wait and see. I still have to watch the Ryan & Dave show from Friday, things were a little busier this weekend than I thought it would be.

MTHPRRGURU posted:

I’m curious as to how hard it would be or feasible (yes all be it at the price point you shouldn’t need to) but to install a super chuffer board and or an HO chuff & or an HO smoke unit installed in the unit. Or possibly retrofit an MTH smoke unit that was designed for a 1/48 scale 4-4-0 and make that work....just some options and like I said at the price point Lionel should have already installed this equipment, but I wonder if the above mentioned options would work.

I suspect the logic board and motor consume most of the space in the locomotive.  No way of knowing until one is actually available if this stuff would fit.  The MTH HO smoke unit is about 1.3" long.  One issue is finding if the smoke output control from the BEMC board is active, you'll need that to control the smoke unit.  Since this comes with no smoke unit, they may not have enabled those outputs.

Here's the MTH HO smoke unit.

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, I am going to wait for the catalog to come out. I am interested in these, but I have to wait and see what other competition is driving the catalog. If I have some room for these, I will get both Jupiter, 119, and the Pennsylvania offering. Just have to wait and see. I still have to watch the Ryan & Dave show from Friday, things were a little busier this weekend than I thought it would be.

As far as I know there was NOT a Ryan and Dave show on Friday.

MartyE posted:

Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Well, I am going to wait for the catalog to come out. I am interested in these, but I have to wait and see what other competition is driving the catalog. If I have some room for these, I will get both Jupiter, 119, and the Pennsylvania offering. Just have to wait and see. I still have to watch the Ryan & Dave show from Friday, things were a little busier this weekend than I thought it would be.

As far as I know there was NOT a Ryan and Dave show on Friday.

Well that is odd. I wonder what went on then, maybe something came up or someone was sick?

I didn't hesitate except for this one thing which I will post a photo of latter. I got a 119 and the matching passenger cars the day of. My only question is why this popped up (in the photo that will be up soon) and will the boxes be decorated in a different way than normal? Maybe a golden spike?