LIONEL vs WILLIAMS : GP-30

I would be seriously surprised if the Williams model looks anywhere near as good as the Lionel one.  The Lionel model even blows the MTH model out of the water.  If my hunch is correct, your comparison of the two would be like comparing a plastic toy to a fine brass model.  Yes the better model is more expensive.  I hold off judgment until I see detailed pictures of the Williams model.

 

The problem with Lionel is that they always ruin a great model by screwing up an otherwise perfect part of it each time they release it (GP30 rear pilot sticks out since the latest release). 

See great images here ---> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lionel...rksid=p2047675.l2557

Never mind.  Found pics of the Williams unit and I think it looks like a bad cartoon.  Lionel is easily worth over twice the price even if the rear pilot is sticking out.

 

Based on those two photographs, I'm missing the "bad cartoon" part.  Both are sharp-looking units and to a detail person, the Lionel unit wins in this category.  But my point is, the Lionel Geep is not a $500 engine.  Lionel makes a great product, but their modern pricing strategy is outrageous and out-of-reach for many in the hobby like myself.  I had a long conversation with a local Lionel dealer about this a few days ago, and he concurs Bachmann wins with 1) warranty support, 2) parts availability and 3) overall value.  I'm a consumer, not a detail person.  Details appeal to a segment of the hobby, but for this consumer, Lionel is missing the mark.

I don't even look at Lionel anymore. They have priced me out of the market.

BTW, the Williams unit looks fine to me and we all know the reputation for quality that WBB and Lionel have.

IMO Williams wins.

I have a number of Williams engines and none of them look like "bad cartoons".  You might get that impression because of the difference in photo angles between the two photos.  The first is a close up and the second is an angular shot that makes the nose of the engine look out of proportion to the rest of the engine.

 

For reliability, Williams cannot be beat.

 

Earl

This is all a matter of opinion and no one is going to win the argument. I don't think that you can gloss over "legacy and details" quite so quickly. There are a lot of features to list under both of those points that williams simply lacks. My viewpoint is that I now buy ONLY legacy due to the features, details and running characteristics. Yes, they are pricey and I'd agree at times, overpriced. However, I don't view the williams products as a great deal either as they lack all of the bells and whistles that keep a viewer engaged. Just my opinion.

^Exactly.  Both have a place in the market, and neither is for everyone.

At the two-to-one ratio you talk about it is hard to argue with your point that the Williams is the greater bargain.  I'm viewed as a Lonel proponent and I won't try to defend what I view as an  objective perspective on my part: but, I don't have that many diesels, and I'm not certain I want a GP30 although I'm mulling it over, but if I buy one, it will be a Lionel. The additional $200 to $250 its justifiable to me because.

- The sound is a lot better.  I have only heard one new Trueblast loco, and it was good, particularly considered the price, but the most recent conventional and legacy sound is simply fantastic: very dynamic, deep and high pitched sounds, complicated sounds, braking, etc., too - On my U30C I swear I can hear tappets and valves operating at idle!

- cruise.  I run only conventional but I love Odessey II: no surge, kicks in automatically and intuitively, locks in speed perfectly.  Really nice to have.

- slow speed smoothness.  Particuarly with a ZW-L to control them, Lionel locos run much slower, smoothly, than the Williams I haveor have seen.

- detail - to me the detail on Lionel looks a little better in this regard - not much, but a little. Still, this is only my views on my needs.  I realize many people will decide otherwise. 

 

Precisely! It's one mans opinion vs another's and usually no one is easily dissuaded.

These two engines are in different worlds, there's no way to compare them. WBB wins on price, Lionel in every other way.

Let me put in my two cents. I have a Lionel Amtrak HHP that failed. I took it to Nassau Hobby who is a Lionel repair dealer and they told me that the board blew however the part is no longer made. This is a two year old loco. I had an engine put in that only goes forward. Two year old engine and no back up parts. Bye Lionel. Thumbs up Williams.

It appears Lionel and Bachmann have built GP30s of different phases. Lionel's unit is Phase 1 whereas Bachmann's is Phase 2 - note the extension of the cab on the Fireman's side of the Bachmann model.

 

Bob 

You can't compare the potential advantages of a Williams GP-30 to a Lionel Legacy GP-30 unless you are only looking at the check book. Now if you compare a Williams conventional diesel to a Lionel conventional diesel, Williams wins out big time.

And BOTH Models Conductor side Handrails are WRONG.  The Handrail should not drop down outside of the door at the nose.  It should drop down at the Stanchion.

Bachmann's HO model:

 

WBB product has a market niche and it supply's  that market.

 

Now in saying that I would prefer to buy one Lionel item with legacy then 2 WBB engines without. I like engines with legacy sounds and command and right now the WBB don't offer either.

It all depends on your budget and whether you run command all the time. I run primarily conventional and don't need all the bells and whistles, so I'd lean toward the Williams. (Most of my locos are Williams.)

 

If I had an unlimited budget, unlimited space and a full command layout, then I'd go for the Lionel. But, I don't, so I will wait a while (probably a year or two) until the "newness" of the Williams-Bachmann wears off then look to purchase at a better price point. It has been my experience that prices tend to drop after the newness and novelty wear off, but you still get all the nice features at a better price.

I'd also add that by going strictly with Legacy motive power, shouldn't imply an unlimited budget. It simply means that the purchases are more selective.

I've been active in the hobby since 1999 when we purchased our first TMCC loco and Cab-1 set. We now own a total of 12 command locos of which 3 are Legacy. 

Not exactly a fevered buying pace.

 

As some others have stated, I'd rather have one Legacy loco vs. multiple conventional.

We're actually considering selling off the TMCC locos to fund future Legacy locos.

In many ways, an apples to oranges comparison.  Different market niche for different customers.

 

I don't have Legacy; I like to watch the locos run; the superdetailing is appreciated, but not something that I desire.  So I am buying Williams, not Lionel Legacy.  These personal prefs may change down the road, who knows!

I bought the WBB GP30 in NYC (if GM&O black and white gets offered offered,

I'm there); beautiful loco, well detailed (the trucks look a little "old Williams

diesel", though), runs fairly well (gearing is still too toyish), sounds are fine.

It's even correct on a road-specific detail: no dynamic brake on the NYC.

 

But...it's conventional...and I'm not...and it sits...and I've already got a list of

locos to upgrade (just got 3 ERR kits from Modern Toy Train Parts), and if it weren't

for the "pilot problem", I would have gone Lionel. 

 

So, kind of a waste of money. Impulse buy; hate 'em.

 

Oh, I got mine for a very good price (under $200) - but the WBB GP30 is nowhere

near worth their catalogue price. For that kind of money...

I would go for the Williams as it don't have all the extra features that may break down.

 

With MTH's PS-2 some of their engines stopped on me at switches, so that is another reason why I tend to go with the more basic model by WBB. Why go with command control when you may have problems with running.

 

Lee F.

I have the Lionel GP-30 in CP and I love it! Sounds and features are great but a Williams engine is nothing to sneeze at either. I also have the Williams GG-1 Bicentennial engine which IMO they did a beautiful job on the decoration. Williams is a bullet proof engine that is fine the way it is or upgrade it to DCS or TMCC if you choose. My only long running complaint about a Williams is the sound. Not a show stopper by any means! WBB is addressing that with their new digital "non" command engines rolling out soon one of which I have a Boston and Maine F-3 set on order with the new sound package.

 

 

 

This is the Williams B&M and below is the Legacy diesel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did Sanda Kan employees use the same research and plans for the Williams GP30 that was used for the Lionel GP30 when first produced? Lionel GP30 units were made in the same factory before Lionel was moved out. They most likely continued the errors because they had the same plans.

 

Andrew

 

That's not a GP30.  Still a very nice model, but lionel could have done better on the windows (coke bottle glasses anyone?).  I don't know why, but I think Lionel really peaked with their earlier GP30 models.  This latest release got a little messed up with that rear-pilot issue.

 

edit:

 

 

 

OOPS! GP-35?  I'm getting old;  I don't even know which one I have.    No worries it's red and I love it anyway!

That's basically my point.  Many have pointed out here that Lionel's Legacy, the sound card, etc. makes the subject unit I found on eBay worth $250 more than the Williams unit, which is conventional.  So to make the comparison more fair, or more "apples to apples" if you will, I just priced out more the stripped-down version of Lionel's GP-30, the "conventional" unit that would be more on Williams' level features-wise.  From several retail outlets, the lowest price I could find was $396 (just $100 less than the fully-equipped version)..  Which means, you could still have two Williams' for the price of a comparable Lionel unit.  I'm missing how the Lionel CONVENTIONAL unit is worth $200 more than Williams, and also note Lionel doesn't come with a lifetime warranty..

Conventional price is still high for a Lionel Engine. I had been looking at the Strasburg steam Mogul but the list price was I believe $489. I know it would be a little less street price but.......

The only negative with the Williams is that they only offer one cab number per road name. Maybe if enough people write WBB they will begin doing 2 or 3 cab numbers per unit. It would be good sales strategy to do so with today's market.

Good news for scottn941: a Timex keeps time just like a Rolex. And a Nissan Sentra will get you to the grocery store just like a Lexus.

 

Williams gives good value for the money, no doubt about it. And as with anything, if you don't appreciate the difference, it makes little sense to spend more for something better. (It doesn't matter too much to me, though - comparing conventional engines is like comparing manual can openers. No interest, because I run Legacy and command is the only way to go for me.)

 

I did check out the Bachmann/Williams GP-30s recently at their booth at a train show. They look good for the money and a nice advance for Bachmann/Williams (although with significant color issues), but you won't have any problem telling they're not Lionels. One word of advice: if you get the Bachmann version, get it in a black livery, because on other liveries the colors on these engines is waaaay off. The Great Northerns in person look a good deal worse than the picture above, for example. The orange looks like someone poured milk in it, and the yellow in the UPs is a washed out shade as well. It's too bad, because this makes the engines look cheap. They did a good job on colors with the Golden Memories engines, but these GP-30s are not good color-wise.

 

Those B&M F units look good in the picture, Chris. Hope you'll do a preview when you get them.

The circuit boards could be made of diamonds and Legacy still wouldn't be worth $200-300 more for a similar locomotive, and added details are just a spot of cyanoacrylate away. Maybe if one was all die cast metal vs. plastic, and one had no sound whatsoever, or was grossly misproportioned vs. scale, but I can't justify the difference.  Can you convince me one is better?  Surely.  It's a matter of diminishing returns.  

 

Even if you run command only, it seems to me you can add ERR circuits for much less than $300.

I will definitely post some pics when I get them. Hopefully in March according to the Williams rep at Springfield.

You can add ERR stuff, but to get it (TMCC, sounds, cruise, directional lights, electrocouplers, shipping, labor etc.) you will indeed be pushing $300. And you still won't have such things as smoke, or the Legacy electronics that allow for additional functions. No matter what you add, it still won't be as good as a Legacy engine. You can't duplicate the great Legacy sounds or the advanced cruise control, among other things.

 

As far as added details, clearly there's a whole lot more to that than "a spot of cyanoacrylate." Like where are you going to get the detail parts, and what will they cost, and will they fit, and how will they look, and will they stay attached, and what about painting them, and where will you get the paint, and how will you get the color right, and etc. etc.? 

 

Sure it's all a matter of diminishing returns. But that's the way it is with most things you buy. As you step up from average to better and better, it costs more, but the basic function doesn't change. Your Chevy will get you around like a Lexus will, and will have a motor, four wheels, air conditioning and a radio.

 

But there's more to it than that, obviously. However, if you use the added features, and appreciate them, it's worth it. But if it's not, and you don't, then it's not for you.

Chris:

 

Did the rep confirm that the TRUE BLAST PLUS  sound package will be in these F3s? I thought it was only in the GP30s

 

Matt

Back in my HO days it wasn't unusual to spend more on Cal-Scale and Kemtrom parts than the initial cost of the locomotive.  Then there was my labor in getting every thing placed properly and painting.

 

If I were to go back and add DCC and sound to those locomotives, today it would easily run $100-$150 in materials alone.

 

Rusty

lifetime warrenty for williams is a relative term.

You still have to pay shipping to factory service

and pay $30 for any and all repairs.  Had a williams

F3 and after just one year, stripped a drive gear.

contacted williams(by bachmann) and they said they dont

sell just the drive gear, because they dont stock parts.

everything is made over seas. I had to buy the whole power

truck at $30. Ponyed up the $30, got the powered truck

and put it on the dummy F3 unti. Robbed a motor

out of the powered unit and made TWO powered untis that can run together

or by them selves. As a side note when installing the new powered truck,

decided to take apart othe powered truck and relube it. It was DRY as a bone.

thats why the original drive gear stripped. Came right from the factory like that.

so chck your Williams powered trucks for grease>!!!

I have never liked the Union Pacific Armour Yellow or the Great Northern Omaha Orange and deep Green.

 

 

 

 

I would rather have the Great Northern in Big Sky Blue.

 

Andrew

In regard to prices, I recently bought a WBB GP30 from Wholesale Trains for $166, they aren't that anymore but if you keep an eye out there are some great prices to be had.

It was the ACL model and it runs and looks nice. My only complaint is there is no volume control.

Besser's Whistlestop out of Baldwinsville, New York

sells Williams locos for less than $150. he has some

big stump pullers that are $300 that he was selling at the last

show I saw him at for $100.

Does anybody have both the Lionel and Williams GP30s to make a true side-by-side comparison?

 

Might the Sound knob be hidden in a hard to reach location?

 

Andrew