I've been thinking about live steam, and everything I find that is American steam locomotives is G scale. Anything in O Scale is British. Does any American live steam exist and O Scale and if so where can I find it?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
i think i saw a picture somewhere of a live steam 4-12-2 and i think mth made a live steamer back in the 90s i could be wrong
I do like live steam. Had a Roundhouse SR&RL #24 and it was flawless.
Good luck looking for O-scale. #24 would accurately run on O-gauge track, because SR&RL was a 2 foot narrow gauge railroad.
I have never seen any USA prototype live steam made commercialy. I have seen them made by those able to machine up thier own engine. Also seen someone take one of the UK style 0-6-0's and make thier own body, just using the boiler and chassis from the engine. However you have to haunt ebay for those, just like watching for the Bassett Lowke live steamers. My friend has one of the crimson red LMS Moguls on display on his mantle. I would love to see a commercialy made small live steamer in O scale, maybe a USRA 0-6-0 or other smaller engine. Small to as to appeal to the most buyers possible, not just those with huge curves. Mike
Little Engines made a Hudson and a Northern in O Scale. I have the Northern. It is probably closer to 17/64 scale, and is beautifully done, if not a totally scale model.
I was going to mention Little Engines as I saw them in their catalogs from 1972 on, when I first started getting them. I read that over all those years they only sold a few kits...
I was working in the home of a very private local individual who has on display 110 0 scale live steam engines in a very formal setting . Wide variety of models both domestic and foreign. I failed to ask details. The sight was just so overwhelming.
Yes a 4-12-2 UP built by a Japanese custom builder one of the big wheels back in the 90's ex-builder (Pioneer, Toby, Sofue, etc etc) I have that issue if the Brass Collector somewhere.
ES44AC posted:I've been thinking about live steam, and everything I find that is American steam locomotives is G scale. Anything in O Scale is British. Does any American live steam exist and O Scale and if so where can I find it?
i hate to keep bringing this up, but "G" isn't a scale, it's a gauge; 45mm or ~1.75", though i prefer to more correctly call it #1 gauge. there are a number of scales that use #1 gauge track. the most accurate are 1:32 that treats #1 gauge track as US standard gauge (56.5") and 1:20.3 for US narrow gauge (3').
a big problem in producing miniature scale live steam is that parts that can be made as dummy in electric powered models need to be functional in live steam, and as complex as steam locomotives appear externally, there is a lot more going on under the boiler shroud. i have built a number of 1:32 live steam models and believe me, most of the hardware is in the 2 - 4mm range. the cab controls which need to be physically manipulated are typically limited to a throttle, blower, reverse lever & whistle (often adding blowdown and cylinder cock controls) that need to share that small space with a readable water glass and pressure gauge. the cab space in a 1:48 scale model is less than 1/3 the volume of a 1:32 scale model.
but getting back to gauge, your best bet for an O gauge live steam model would be in narrow gauge, or even better in "super" narrow gauge (aka: 2' gauge). treating O gauge track as 2' gauge yields a scale of 1:19.2; bigger than 3' narrow gauge locomotives riding on #1 gauge track which do exist.
good luck...gary
You can buy drawings and castings from the UK for an LBSC designed NYC Hudson in O gauge. Since there are dozens of manufacturers that make detail parts in brass for NYC engines it would not be a stretch to make a really detailed live steam Hudson in O gauge. I've built two O gauge live steamers, British Southern Railway 4-4-0 and have an LMS 4-6-0 in progress. I have a complete machine shop and have also built several 3 1/2 inch gauge live steamers over the past 30 years.
If you can find one, there's the Neff O gauge steamer from the 30s:
https://ogrforum.com/topic/neff-live-steam
I have several live steam O gauge European locomotives from that era that were mass produced and they are pretty beat up and basically shelf queens. Neff locos are rare, expensive and generally require more repairs than they are worth. I've repaired a few old steamers and built several new ones and building new is easier. Not too many folks have the necessary machining skills and the ability to silver solder or the equipment to do this. If I had to build an American prototype live steamer in O gauge for sale, it would cost as much as a decent used car.
Thank you for posting the link to the Neff in action .....ads were in the Model Railroader in the 1947 era .
Do you have any flyers / catalogs for the Neff that you could please post some images from ?
Thank you Cheers Carey
Now that I have figured out the new system for photo posting (cannot do it on iPad) I can regale you with a Little Engines 17/64 Scale O gauge live steamer. This one came from Milt Sorenson of Meridian Idaho, in exchange for some plastic Diesels. It originally ran on propane, and when it came here I was able to run it on compressed air. I tried a limited beautification program, but it is difficult to really make it look like a scale model.
Rod ends are hardened steel; axles are 5/16" dia, and the spring rigging, leaf springs and all, is functional. it is not insulated, of course.
Attachments
Images (1)
I think it looks great. This locomotive was designed by Martin Evans in the 1930's or 40's. There are a lot of hours in making one of these.
Sorry, I meant Martin Lewis. Martin Evans was a Brit who designed locomotives in the UK.
I remember seeing a live steam Turbine in an old MR magazine back in the 70's or 80's. It was in the readers comment section with a photo, but no article. Built by a fellow in Japan and I think the live steam actually drove DC generators that sent power to truck mounted DC motors. I was absolutely flabbergasted at what it most have taken to build it. It was all inside a UP 8500 HP Gas Turbine (that's what really caught my attention in the 1st place) loco that he built as well. Most unusual live steamer I've ever seen.
BH
up148 posted:I remember seeing a live steam Turbine in an old MR magazine back in the 70's or 80's. It was in the readers comment section with a photo, but no article. Built by a fellow in Japan and I think the live steam actually drove DC generators that sent power to truck mounted DC motors. I was absolutely flabbergasted at what it most have taken to build it. It was all inside a UP 8500 HP Gas Turbine (that's what really caught my attention in the 1st place) loco that he built as well. Most unusual live steamer I've ever seen.
BH
I believe it was made by "Wada Works" in Japan and think it was gauge 1.
The torch and turbine make a lot of noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1EtBOc6418
I had one of their boilers and a turbine made for marine use. Sold the turbine and still have the boiler and using the boiler with a Graham two cylinder steam engine.
You can google search for Werner Jeggli, a Swiss engineer who has made a live steam model of Turbomotive in 1 gauge, I believe which was a London Midland and Scottish Railway 4-6-0 that had been converted from a conventional piston type locomotive to a steam turbine in the 1930's or 40's. It racked up over a million miles in revenue service before it was involved in an accident and rebuilt as a conventional piston engine. Herr Jeggli also has built a steam turbine 1 gauge articulated train called "Mathematiker" and a steam turbine electric called "Dampfsprinter".
David Meyrick's live steam O gauge
Woodshire BILL
many thanks for posting video link i was amazed.
Actually the model I was mentioning was "O" scale for sure. I remember the photo and small story along with the readers comments.
Butch
Lovely video Bill.
Butch is correct. The model is/was O scale.
It was a model of the UP 8500 HP Big Blow made by a Japanese enthusiast. The main unit had 6 electric motors in the trucks and the Turbine unit had a boiler and a generator powering the motors on the trucks. The generator was geared with some kind of turbine contraption which are also used in G/1 scale.
Quite an incredible endeavor.
Yves
I saw a live steam US style O scale locomotive in the trading pits of the 2010 or 2011 TCA convention, but it was missing the tender. It was a Pacific type. If I had the cash, I probably would have purchased it.
In my local division a pair of HO live steam locomotives were sold at an auction a number of years ago. Talk about precision engineering.
I found this 1940'-'50's rolling bronze chassis for a Little Engines 4-8-4 on eBay just the other week:
It sold for a grand total of $76 as apparently no one involved (well, almost no one) had any idea as to what it actually was. Fully equalized and sprung bronze journals and all.
The late 1960's versions of these from Little Engines owner, Irene Lewis (I knew her) had the frame cast in aluminum not bronze and she personally told me they hadn't made bronnze frames in years. I'd bought the Hudson parts from her back in 1968.
This particular example was beautifully hand-filed as opposed to milled and while an excellent job for that method as it rolls very freely, the cylinders will need to be trued (squared-up) for it to be a viable live-steam model. That isn't too difficult on a pantograph milling machine and I do own a couple, --so I bought the thing. Roller bearing rods and valve gear machined from stainless steel sheet stock are a simple matter on such "obsolete" devices.
As for several of the earlier comments above in this thread, I do not know how one can detemine the scale of a locomotive as 17/64ths or 1/4" from the information provided. Firstly one needs to know the specific prorototype in order to "scale" anything.
In this iinstance, based upon the actual axle spacing, cylinder location and frame length this thing works out to more than close enough in 1:48 to suite me that I have decided to make it into a NYC S1 Niagra: #6000, with the as delivered 75" drivers and by employing one using sneeky and very major shortcut, (to be saved for the end of this rant...)
I test fitted a 1:32 (gauge1) Aster LNER A3 "Flying Scotsman" boiler on the frame. The diameter (1-15/16" o.d.) is perfect but about an inch too long overall. However it is a well proven design of a "C-Type" small gauge live steam boiler, very simple (2 flues) and therefore easily copied with no design modifications aside from the necessarily shortened length. There's sufficent room for same gauge 1 thrippple alcohol burners as well.
The cylinders are a 1/2" bore with a 5/8" stroke. This design of boiler with those cylinder dimensions on 8 cast iron drivers, means this thing will out-pull a gauge 1 "Fying Scotsman" locomotive, which itself has a rather formidable reputation!
Yes, I will be making the boiler from scratch, (may get some professional help on the brazing, I suppose one generally doen't enjoy such things exploding in one's face.) l will buy all needed fittings, guages and safety valves (Little Engines insisted on uping the size of all steam lines from 1/8" as designed by Martin Lewis to 5/32"o.d.) Also, I will be following Aster's lead in having all functional lines: feed-water lines, displacement lubricator, throttle valve, etc., within the cab, so nothing oversized will be externally visible. By doing the above tasks I will have a good running live steam chassis and bare boiler and no more.
Now to that shortcut I'd mentioned. I have been looking at Sunset 3rd Rail BRASS New York Central Niagras and at how so many on here dislike the toothed belt drive, complain about the "delicate" soldered-on details (some of you have to learn how to actually use your fingers !) So, there is, is to fit the functional boiler into the Sunset brass shell, and mate that superstructureto the running Little Engines chass. A couple of polypropelene tanks in that huge tender for distilled water and methylated spirits as fuel add a few R/C servos and I am off and running.
Does anyone have a well used/damaged Sunset Niagara they'd be willing to part with at a reasonable price? One sold last weekend on eBay for $495.
Attachments
Images (2)
Well, for the Little engine's O engine's I would think it is 1/4" as opposed to 17/64's simply due to the manual being titled as 1/4" scale loco's. I've had some mismatched parts for the 4-8-4 for years as well as some 1/2" and 3/4" scale partial builds. I also recently picked up some more castings for an O gauge BAT which I need to work on some time.
If I had seen that LE chassis, I would have been bidding against you lol although not much past $76. It will be neat engine!
I assume something like this would be useful ? :>
Photo taken from Outdoor Model Railways by Martin Evans MAP publications.
cheers
Bob
Attachments
Images (1)
You can call anything you like 1/4" scale. Take that cylinder block and place it next to any large O Scale cylinder casting, and then get back to us on scale. I will do the same, since I have spare cylinders, and I will post the scale I think this Northern is.
My little Engines Northern cylinders are 128% the size of a Lobaugh FEF cylinder block. 17/64 scale is 106.25% of quarter inch scale.
The photo below is unfair - you are looking at an SP Mikado cylinder block - Mikados are not nearly as big as Northerns.
Attachments
Images (1)
Yves posted:Butch is correct. The model is/was O scale.
It was a model of the UP 8500 HP Big Blow made by a Japanese enthusiast. The main unit had 6 electric motors in the trucks and the Turbine unit had a boiler and a generator powering the motors on the trucks. The generator was geared with some kind of turbine contraption which are also used in G/1 scale.
Quite an incredible endeavor.
Yves
Sorry Yves, I missed your post almost 4 months ago. That is exactly the loco I was talking about. It was in the reader mail section with a photo showing it blowing steam out of the exhaust. MR missed a huge opportunity to do an article on a really unique hand built loco even if they aren't in to O scale. I can't even imagine all the work that went into that loco, but I would love to see it operate.
Butch
ES44AC,
As you are located in PA, a trip to one of the York TCA shows might be in order. I remember seeing some live steam for sale there. Never had any interest myself, so I didn't inquire, but it was there, and plainly marked as live steam. Not sure if it was "O" , but I don't recall it being overly large.
Simon
