@harmonyards posted:

You need to know the basics, ….what rpm makes the most power at the sweet spot of the locomotive’s gear ratio, ……18K sounds awfully high, …..I’d think the Kline Hudson would approach sonic boom territory with that range, ……most scale steamers use motors in the 5-8K rpm range ……again, and as Pete already mentioned, 12V would be ideal given the size of the motor, ……the closer you get to peak power in a given range at the lower rpm scale the better it’ll perform,…..we look to make the most power, at the lowest rpm range possible, and not make heat, ……that’s the idea of it…..

Pat

ahh, ok...hmmm

Think I've been banging my head against a wall long enough.. Time for a break! Cool stuff though.

@Dank0 I think there's some confusion here...  The torque of a permag DC motor is proportional to current, not voltage.  Ratings are based on a "torque constant" expressed in oz-in (or gf-cm) per amp.  Check out the attached data sheet for a Pittman 9000-series motor.  The 24V winding gives the same torque as the 12V version at half the amperage because its torque constant is almost exactly double that of the 12V version.  Max torque actually occurs at zero RPM (i.e., stall.)  In any case, all of the motors we're considering have more torque and better performance than the stock Mabuchi.

A 24V winding will get you smoother starts, more precise control, and lower current draw.  I've done a lot of tests and have given the reasons for this in some of my other posts, but I encourage you to experiment for yourself.  The question you have to ask is, "how fast do I want this loco to go?"  The 24V motor will turn half as many RPM as a 12V motor for any input voltage.  Unfortunately Lionel limited the input voltage to 19VAC max.  Depending on the control boards you use, the motor might see a max of 15VDC.  So you would be overdriving a 12-volt motor by ~25%, not a big deal.  On the other hand, a 24-volt motor will only turn 15/24, or 63% of its max RPM.  To determine how fast the loco will go, you need to know its gear ratio.  Manufacturers should put this in the catalog,  but they don't.  Luckily it's easy to find out: turn the flywheel by hand and see how many revolutions it takes for one rotation of the driving wheels.

I never owned a K-Line Hudson so I don't know the gear ratio.  But let's guess that it's 22:1 and the loco's driver diameter is 1.63" (a scale 79" like the real NYC Hudson.)

12V version:  8000 motor RPM x (15/12) = 10,000 RPM max.  If the loco is pulling a heavy load, the motor will draw significant current, so you're more likely to see about 9200 RPM max.  9200 / 22 ratio = 418 driving wheel RPM.   418 x 79 scale inches x Pi =104,000 linear scale inches per minute.  104,000 x 60 mins per hour = 6.24 million inches per hour.  Divide by (12 x 5280) to convert inches to miles = 98.4 mph top speed.  Yes, the prototype could go that fast.  But how long are your straightaways?  How sharp are your curves??

24V version: 8000 RPM x (15/24) = 5000 RPM max.  The 24V motor will NOT deflect as much under load so let's say it'll turn 4750 RPM.  Nothing in the rest of the calculation changes, so you can calculate the new top speed with a ratio: (4750 / 9200) x 98.4 mph, or 50.8 mph with a 24V motor.  Unless you have a very small layout, that's probably too slow for a Hudson.  In this case, the only reasons to choose the 24V motor are (1) You plan to do a lot of switching and want the smoothest possible starts; or, (2) You're trying to use a command decoder setup that can't handle high stall current and are willing to accept the lower top speed.  (Remember, 24V motor has half the current draw.)

So IF the gear ratio is 22:1, a motor that turns 8000 RPM at 12V is a better choice than the 24V version.  In the venerable Lionel Hudsons with taller 18:1 gearing it's a tossup IMO.  And in my MTH Premier Hudson with NASCAR 16:1 gears, I found a 24V motor to be the better choice.  Ultimately it's your train and your decision.  Now hopefully you have the information to decide!

@Ted S posted:

A 24V winding will get you smoother starts, more precise control, and lower current draw.  I've done a lot of tests and have given the reasons for this in some of my other posts, but I encourage you to experiment for yourself.  The question you have to ask is, "how fast do I want this loco to go?"  The 24V motor will turn half as many RPM as a 12V motor for any input voltage.  Unfortunately Lionel limited the input voltage to 19VAC max.  Depending on the control boards you use, the motor might see a max of 15VDC.  So you would be overdriving a 12-volt motor by ~25%, not a big deal.  On the other hand, a 24-volt motor will only turn 15/24, or 63% of its max RPM.

Ted, your post makes no sense for this scenario!  He's installing ERR Cruise, so the only thing that the 24 volt motor will do is minimize his pulling power, it's not going to give him smoother starts or more precise control!

@Ted S posted:

I've done a lot of tests and have given the reasons for this in some of my other posts, but I encourage you to experiment for yourself.  The question you have to ask is, "how fast do I want this loco to go?"  The 24V motor will turn half as many RPM as a 12V motor for any input voltage.  Unfortunately Lionel limited the input voltage to 19VAC max.  Depending on the control boards you use, the motor might see a max of 15VDC.  So you would be overdriving a 12-volt motor by ~25%, not a big deal.  On the other hand, a 24-volt motor will only turn 15/24, or 63% of its max RPM.

Why would he experiment, we can already tell him what the result will be! We're not running conventional control here.

John there will be no loss of pulling power.  According to the tables I have for 8000- and 9000-series Pittmans and this 31ZY motor (data provided by Pete), the 24V version of the motor makes the same or greater torque as the 12V version.  All Dan would lose by going with the higher-voltage winding is top speed.  Because I believe this K-Line loco was geared for a small, high-revving motor from the factory, in this case I agree that a 24V motor would be too slow.

However... in any scenario, command or conventional, the same motor with a 24V winding compared to12V will give smoother more predictable starts, lower current draw, and more precise control.  (In the absence of tachometer feedback, there will be a smaller change in RPM for each commanded speed step.)  The relevant question is, will it turn fast enough with the supplied voltage to give the loco the desired top speed?

About 25 years ago I bought the original Premier K4 with PS1.  Despite being marketed as "scale," this loco was geared very tall.  Almost as soon as I got it, I swapped out the factory 12V Pittman for its 24V equivalent-- an easy mod for a huge improvement!  In late 2006 or 2007 I ditched the PS1 for ERR cruise.  I bought the Cruise Commander directly from Jon Z, it might have been one of the first ten or twenty that he ever sold.  I even spoke to him on the phone before I ordered, to make sure that the back-EMF tuning was compatible with my 24V motor.  It doesn't coast worth a darn due to the small flywheel and self-locking gears, otherwise it runs great to this day.

I agree with the principle of your post.  Under cruise control, the motor spec, gear ratio, etc., don't seem to matter as much as they did under conventional control.  But depending on particulars of the drivetrain and which closed-loop system is being used, the higher-voltage winding may give smoother performance if you're willing to sacrifice top speed.  Try it, you'll like it!

Ted, ….the Kline Hudsons are 30:1 …..in command, he’d be maxed out of throttle with a 24V motor, and might see 20 SMPH tops,……I’ve run the rabbit of motors on this swap, …..I even tried a rare 19.1V 8000 series Pittman …..it pulled ok (ish) but 25 SMPH was it, ……I ran out of throttle …….I know your love affair with the 24V motor, and sure, 16:1, 18:1 might work ok for your taste, but at anything north of 25:1 it’s gonna be cruise control you can’t control,…….😉

Pat

I head off to a doctor's appt and look what happens! Can't leave you kids alone for a minute! All kidding aside, your debate is still vey educational to me. Thanks for the calcs Ted. I'll study that so I'm more familiar with speculating these things in the future. At least we're all in agreement that I'm going for a 12v motor preferably around 8000 rpm if I don't want a slow choo choo!

I unwittingly bought the new Lionel SW1 switcher a few months back and got the 24v behavior you guys are describing with top speed. Geared super low and super slow top end. Really smooth operation though. I still need to sell that thing. It's the Mr. Muffin Milwaukee version if anybody's interested. Very nice looking. Kinda bummed about that.

I bought a few motors. I got the Buehler from John and the 31ZY off ebay. I also bought another one off of amazon, but after further dialogue here, I realize it probably won't work.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Seems like one of the other 2 will be fine though...

Well, the Amazon one is probably wimpier than the K-Line stock motor.

Well, now I know!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the Amazon one is probably wimpier than the K-Line stock motor.

Oh god yes! …I doubt that motor could pull a bum out of bed! ……

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Oh god yes! …I doubt that motor could pull a bum out of bed! ……

Pat

Looking exclusively for a dual 2.3mm shaft did not yield good results.

@Dank0 posted:

Looking exclusively for a dual 2.3mm shaft did not yield good results.

You’re late to the party, we’ve been dissecting the Kline Hudson for quite a while now, ……there’s really only two motor choices at the moment for an upgrade on the stock chassis, ……the Pittman, which is made out of unobtanium right now, and the motor Pete found and tested with good results……of course, you could go all the way as many have done, and do the full blown chassis swap, then you get a honking 55mm Pittman, and use it to pull your house down,……😉

Pat

@Dank0 posted:

Is there an upper limit for rpm? is 11,250 rpm at 18v too high? I found this one last night as a possibility before you guys responded today. it doesn't show torque specifically, but the rpm/voltage seems to be in a similar range. Those Pittmans are elusive which Pat well knows!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...W2QP9EQYPC&psc=1

Somehow I missed this post from earlier today.  John and I sometimes have fun debating about how many RPM is too many .  When you start getting above 10,000 RPM especially in a brass loco, things get noisy.  Also if you have a flywheel or U-joints and they're not carefully balanced, vibration can be a problem too.  That being said, I think the Johnson motor in your Amazon link^^ would have the right speed range for your application, and it's a dual-shaft motor with 2.3mm shafts.  If you installed it in a K-Line Hudson with ERR, you probably wouldn't see more than 10k RPM in use, so that's not the problem.

My concerns are: (1) it's 47 x 29 mm so it's probably too big.  (2) I couldn't find the stall torque or torque constant in the Amazon product listing, or from any credible source on the Web.  So there's no way to know in advance if it's really torquier than the stock Mabuchi.  Based on its size and asking price, it probably is stronger.

If you want to take a chance for $21, we all might learn something, and it could be an option for future upgrades.  But for your project, I think it's too big.

@Ted S posted:

Somehow I missed this post from earlier today.  John and I sometimes have fun debating about how many RPM is too many .  When you start getting above 10,000 RPM especially in a brass loco, things get noisy.  Also if you have a flywheel or U-joints and they're not carefully balanced, vibration can be a problem too.  That being said, I think the Johnson motor in your Amazon link^^ would have the right speed range for your application, and it's a dual-shaft motor with 2.3mm shafts.  If you installed it in a K-Line Hudson with ERR, you probably wouldn't see more than 10k RPM in use, so that's not the problem.

My concerns are: (1) it's 47 x 29 mm so it's probably too big.  (2) I couldn't find the stall torque or torque constant in the Amazon product listing, or from any credible source on the Web.  So there's no way to know in advance if it's really torquier than the stock Mabuchi.  Based on its size and asking price, it probably is stronger.

If you want to take a chance for $21, we all might learn something, and it could be an option for future upgrades.  But for your project, I think it's too big.

Well Pat doesn't think it'll pull a bum out of bed! LOL I already bought it prior, so it's on its way...I'm certainly curious to see what's what once everything is in front of me. Pat may win out in the end though with regards to me doing a chassis swap! We'll see...

No wait! that was a different motor...the one I bought already is way weaker than this one. You know, maybe I'll pick it up too. I can swing it. Now, the reason I was looking at this motor early on is that the 31zy is 57mm long. this one is 47, so maybe there is enough room for the flywheel? I'll know more when it gets here.

The good news is that someone already did what appears to be a kline upgrade kit on it. It says upgraded with Oddessey on the box and I get the original motor and flywheel in a bag...Hopefully I'll have extra parts in case I screw up the worm gear.

The biggest thing to remember, is to have fun. Enjoy tinkering with it, and let us know how you make out,……We can shove facts & numbers down your throat till we’re blue in the face, but you have to make your own conclusions, based on your experiences,……So go build something, and have a Coke & a smile, ……😉

Pat

@Norton posted:

I would run it as is.

I have to agree, unless you find the pulling power sub-standard, just enjoy it!

Totally agree with Pete & John, …..I still own one example that is 100% bone stock, with Kline Cruise……..it’s sole job is to pull 3 commuter cars in circles for endless hours, ……and it does that job just fine,…..

Pat

I run the K-Line cruise until it croaks, then I look for alternatives.

Well, we have to hope that it works properly! that was risk I took...fair point though. Probably the biggest thing I'll want to do is upgrade the sounds then. Do you guys think the ERR sound board would be an improvement worth doing? And, can that just be swapped in or do I have to replace the main board for it to work?

Regardless, it's still lots of fun interacting with you guys. Truth be told, I am very much alone in this hobby currently as no one I know is into it. Bit of a last minute add on I suppose. Mountain biking and music have been my hobbies for most of my adult life. The wife claimed to be all in, but that waned quickly once work was involved! LOL She sure likes the way look running round in circles for a minute here and there!

I finished building this about 3 years ago and it took me 6. (see pic) Mostly done with thousands of hours of my own labor.  I had it designed and then worked off of a 3d model. The designer was an insufferable flake but I needed his feedback from testing to get the acoustics right. I'm not a pro and its at my house. I had visions of recording bands, but I quickly realized that I was too insecure about having strangers coming around. Probably would have done better had I built this in L.A not at my house....Still love it and hang out in there every day! I definitely regret the control room though. Didn't need it for just myself...See? Trains aren't the only thing you can take way too far!!! :^D

@Dank0  That's a great studio you have!  I've built a few over the years.  Yours is by far the best looking home studio I've seen outside of Mix mag.  Great selection of gear too.  The attention to acoustics and ambience are top notch.  Fine work.  Thanks for sharing.

@SteveH posted:

@Dank0  That's a great studio you have!  I've built a few over the years.  Yours is by far the best looking home studio I've seen outside of Mix mag.  Great selection of gear too.  The attention to acoustics and ambience are top notch.  Fine work.  Thanks for sharing.

Thanks for the kind words Steve. It was way harder to build than I ever imagined. Construction was very complex. Fortunately, I had access to a router CNC for all of the curved surfaces you see. I was able to translate the 3d model to cut files. (that machinist past life really helped) If I ever did another, it would be much simpler in design. I've learned a lot over time about what I could have left out. Really happy with it though. It sounds awesome in here. it's always fun to blow people away when they see it for the first time. I mean seriously? Who does that?!!

Nice to see a fellow music nut in the forum here!

All I can say is WOW!  That's some studio!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

All I can say is WOW!  That's some studio!

Thanks man!

It looks like Pittman motors are still being made:

https://www.haydonkerkpittman....rs/brushed-dc-motors

Did they phase out the 8000 model recommended for this K-Line Hudson upgrade?  Has anyone tried contacting the company to tell them about the pent-up demand in the model train world for this particular motor?

Definitely want to hear what Pat thinks about this!

@David98 posted:

It looks like Pittman motors are still being made:

https://www.haydonkerkpittman....rs/brushed-dc-motors

Did they phase out the 8000 model recommended for this K-Line Hudson upgrade?  Has anyone tried contacting the company to tell them about the pent-up demand in the model train world for this particular motor?

Yes, ….I did ….unfortunately, Ametek, the parent company of Pittman, now has bigger fish to fry than our little hobby,…..they priced themselves right out of our lives. They do indeed still produce the 8000 series motors, but prices and quantities approach stratosphere numbers,……..way back when, we could call Pittman motors, and sometimes ( often actually ) we could talk to Charlie Pittman, himself,…..Charlie was actually a model railroader, so he knew what he was talking about when we had a question on a particular application,……I can’t even buy parts from Ametek without seeking a second mortgage,…….Aerospace, & the medical field is their primary focus now, …..I’ve had a rep at my shop, and that’s straight from the horse’s mouth,……

Pat

Bummer...

OK, so I got the loco today and it fires up and the sounds/lights work. It moves very slowly. The electronics are not responding to variable voltage with a proper throttle range. It does do forward/reverse/neutral and variable voltage does have some range, it's just stopped to very slow. I can only run conventional currently. Can't buy a base 3 yet.

Thought I'd see if you guys had any ideas...Thanks

What are you using as a conventional controller?  If yours had the K-Line Cruise from the factory, I imagine that you would need 9-19 volts on the rails and at least 3-4 amps to get a full range of speeds.

@Dank0 posted:

OK, so I got the loco today and it fires up and the sounds/lights work. It moves very slowly. The electronics are not responding to variable voltage with a proper throttle range. It does do forward/reverse/neutral and variable voltage does have some range, it's just stopped to very slow. I can only run conventional currently. Can't buy a base 3 yet.

Thought I'd see if you guys had any ideas...Thanks

That is one symptom of a bad K-Line Cruise board. Best if you can remove the shell and take a photo of the board or motor to make sure. Replacing that board with a ERR Cruise M will take care of that problem and will work with any motor replacement should you decide to go that route.

Pete

@Ted S posted:

What are you using as a conventional controller?  If yours had the K-Line Cruise from the factory, I imagine that you would need 9-19 volts on the rails and at least 3-4 amps to get a full range of speeds.

I am using the MTH Z1000, Ted. Plenty for my setup and I am seeing a strong 18.4v everywhere around the track. No weak spots.  This one has the upgraded odyssey kit. All other engines in my collection are working great in conventional. I think I'm good there.

@Norton posted:

That is one symptom of a bad K-Line Cruise board. Best if you can remove the shell and take a photo of the board or motor to make sure. Replacing that board with a ERR Cruise M will take care of that problem and will work with any motor replacement should you decide to go that route.

Pete

Yeah, I was pretty much planning on doing that anyway in the beginning. I've heard that its going to be 3-4 months before the M boards are back in stock though.

I'll have to decide if I wanna get the regular board and a radio board with it or wait. I'll get it open and take some pics.

Thanks

No need for a new radio board. A non cruise Lionel DCDR will work in the meantime.

Pete

@Dank0 posted:

Yeah, I was pretty much planning on doing that anyway in the beginning. I've heard that its going to be 3-4 months before the M boards are back in stock though.

I'll have to decide if I wanna get the regular board and a radio board with it or wait. I'll get it open and take some pics.

Thanks

I have the ERR Cruise Commander M kits in stock.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the ERR Cruise Commander M kits in stock.

I'm so gonna buy two of those! Awesome sauce...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have the ERR Cruise Commander M kits in stock.

One question, Is the ERR sound board a worthwhile upgrade from where I'm at? I will be hopefully be using your chuff stuff once I figure out what's what. Also, how do I buy from you?

I don't see any visible issues with the boards. I can't find anything incorrect about the install from the manual I found a copy of here on the forum.

@Dank0 posted:

One question, Is the ERR sound board a worthwhile upgrade from where I'm at? I will be hopefully be using your chuff stuff once I figure out what's what. Also, how do I buy from you?

You can listen to the sound samples on the 3rd Rail ERR site and see if you like them better than your stock K-Line RS board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can listen to the sound samples on the 3rd Rail ERR site and see if you like them better than your stock K-Line RS board.

I've done that. Still hard to compare audio samples to the actual in the room sound but I can try one and see. How do I order those M boards from you?