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The other night, I re-watched the "Tinplate Trains in Action" volume featuring John DeSantis' collection after looking over the wonderful photos from his open house here on the forum.  The video briefly mentions Marklin's production of standard gauge accompanied by video of the operating trains.  

This was news to me, and now I'm on the hunt for more information about Marklin's standard gauge production.  Could any forum members shed some light on the topic or point me in the right direction?

Thanks for your help! (And thanks to NJCJOE for the John DeSantis - Standard Gauge Collection thread!)

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pretty sure they make HO and O as well. We went antiquing today, and the shop has some O Gauge Marklin manual switches. I've looked at them several times. The Mrs asked me why I didn't get them. I said besides being  O Gause (all my track is O27, but I could deal with that) I'd have to change some track around after I figured out where to put them.

I was under the impression that Marklin 54mm #2 gauge was measured between railhead centers and Lionel standard gauge came out at 54mm / 2.125" between the rails.

Did Marklin re-gauge some production for American-market standard gauge? Fuzzy memory, but I recall something about Bing re-gauging some pieces to fit.

Märklin introduced from 1891 the 3 gauges 1, 2 and 3 with measures 48 mm, 54 mm and 75 mm, later they also added a smaller gauge which they called 0 and this was 35 mm. These were measured from the middle of the rails (which was 3 mm tinplate) and as we measure now from between the rails they were 45, 51, 72 and for 0 gauge 32 mm. The Standard gauge was introduced by Lionel as 54 mm between the rails.

As far as I could find in the history books Märklin never made a Standard Gauge train, i.e. a train for 54 mm gauge. They did make trains for export to USA some 100 years ago. These were European looking trains to which a cowcatcher etc. was added to make it look like an American train.

Later Märklin also made H0 (16.5 mm) and Z (6.5 mm).

Currently the Märklin company has also added the Trix and LGB brands to their line and make trains in Z, N (9mm), H0, and 1 gauge. They stopped making 0 gauge after WW 2 and gauge 2 and 3 were abandoned still earlier (WW 1).

Regards

Fred

Last edited by sncf231e

I guess a couple of things need to be said here at this point:

1) Marklin did make American-style trains for export to the American market in the 1920's.  These were not just "European looking trains" dressed up a little.  They were entirely different tooling, detailing, and lithography.  American freight car design was used, giving them very different proportions and details from the European counterparts; the sliding box car doors, brakewheels, ladders, no buffers, American road names and heralds, frame trusses, American-type hoppers and gondolas, and of course the #504 Pennsylvania "Coke Car", which was famously copied by Ives. All these are quite unlike any Marklin-made European goods wagons.

The following photos are a few random American cars made by Marklin.  There were several more.  These were all Gauge 1 cars.  Most of these are pictured with Ives wide gauge (standard-gauge) trucks, which I have temporarily put on them, to run on my layout.  To be clear, these were Gauge 1 cars made by Marklin to sell to the American market in the early 1920's, when Ives was still making Gauge 1 trains and Lionel's "Standard Gauge" had not yet become the industry standard.  These are being shown to illustrate that Marklin made specifically American trains for the American market.  Compare these pictures to any Marklin Gauge 1 Reichsbahn goods wagons, they are entirely different design, proportions, and construction start to finish.

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2) The second part of this is that later, in the late 1920's, when Gauge 1 trains were rapidly being abandoned in this country and all the major manufacturers had converted to 2-1/8" "standard gauge",  both Bing and Marklin decided that if they were to continue exporting to America they would need to do likewise.  Like Bing, Marklin certainly did make and sell Standard Gauge trains, for export to the USA.  As mentioned by previous posts in this thread, several well-known, world-class collectors in this country have had Marklin Standard Gauge in their collections.  

As an example, the photos below are of my Marklin Standard Gauge American-style New York Central coal hopper car.

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There are some close-up photos here, but even these do not show very well, what is quite evident when you have the car in your hand; which is that these are Marklin Standard Gauge trucks, factory installed and never removed or switched.  I obtained this car at a Stout auction, it came from the Ward Kimball collection.   I also got several of Ward's Bing Standard Gauge cars.

One might suggest that this could have been a Marklin Gauge 2 car, and someone has tweaked the trucks a little to gain the extra 1/8".  But this cannot be the case.  Marklin Gauge 2 was exclusively European, and Marklin did not make American style cars in Gauge 2, or export Gauge 2 to America. Marklin also stopped making Gauge 2 around 1918 or so. This hopper was made by Marklin in the late 1920's, about a decade after Marklin stopped making Gauge 2 at all. So there is no overlap, and many years in between European Gauge 2 and Marklin's American Standard Gauge.

What Marklin did, as did also Ives and Bing, was to take their American-style Gauge 1 cars that were already in production, and already being shipped to America, and made a new Standard Gauge truck to put on them in place of the Gauge 1 truck.  (Personally, I feel that the Marklin cars are more successful at making this transition than either the Ives or Bing.  Both the Ives and Bing Gauge 1 cars are quite small, and undersized for Standard Gauge.  The Marklin cars are more rubust, and compare in size to Lionel 200 series freight cars.)

Notice that as well as the Standard Gauge trucks, this Marklin New York Central hopper also has original from the factory Marklin hook couplers; these were made to be compatible with the hook couplers used by Lionel on their early cars.  It will also hook into Ives and the Marklin Gauge 1 couplers.

For whatever reasons  (a lot changed politically, socially, and economically around the end of the 1920's, both here and in Europe), the Marklin American Standard Gauge venture was short-lived – perhaps only for a year or two – so there are not a lot of them out there.  Documentation is difficult to find.  Also, for obvious reasons, it is not likely that collectors in Europe will see many of these or know much about them.  But collect Marklin on this side of the pond for long enough and you will come across Marklin Standard Gauge if you keep your eyes trained to see the different truck.

happy collecting!

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hojack posted:

For whatever reasons  (a lot changed politically, socially, and economically around the end of the 1920's, both here and in Europe), the Marklin American Standard Gauge venture was short-lived – perhaps only for a year or two – so there are not a lot of them out there.  Documentation is difficult to find.  Also, for obvious reasons, it is not likely that collectors in Europe will see many of these or know much about them.  But collect Marklin on this side of the pond for long enough and you will come across Marklin Standard Gauge if you keep your eyes trained to see the different truck.

happy collecting!

Thank you for this information on Märklin standard gauge which seems to be unknown in Europe or at least unknown by me

Regards

Fred 

Last edited by sncf231e

Rob, I have not seen either, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.  Fred SNCF231E knows of a steam engine with cowcatcher for American market.  Bing made a great (and really big) standard gauge American caboose in both NYC and Pennsy, but I have not seen a Marklin to go with these cars.  I use the European version when I run my Marklin freight. Click here and scroll down to the video. There is an 8-wheel and a 4-wheel "bobber" in the video.  Not really an American "caboose".

There is a Marklin user's group, I have not joined, but they may have more info.  They were talking about a Marklin Standard Gauge turntable at one point.  I know Marklin made Standard Gauge 3-rail tubular track. 

 

Thanks to all!  Love the detailed information, Hojack.  And your rolling stock is magnificent.  As for locos, the Tinplate Legends in Action vol. 3 segment (at about 24:35 minutes) on John Santis' collection shows one:  

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Sorry for the quality, but it's the best I could do.  In the accompanying narrative, DeSantis describes the history as: 

"...and then in the '20s as well, you have the big European toy makers Marklin and Bing who decide that they are going to compete in the standard gauge market. And all this is because in 1906, Josh Cohen starts with one locomotive! Marklin re-designed the whole locomotive and the tender to run on standard gauge track. It was not just changing the trucks. And the Marklin locomotives are spectacular."

maybe this is the loco Fred SNCF231E knows of?  So, what we (I) know so far is that Marklin changed trucks for their rolling stock and made a new loco in standard for the US.  

How cool would it be to have a whole Marklin Standard Gauge consist? 

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Nice photos of the Marklin Standard gauge pieces.    Before WW1     The European makers ( Marklin, Carette, Bing ) were importing 1 gauge to America . Ives was the only  ( large) domestic maker of 1 gauge  (clock work 1904-1916, electric 1912-1920).  With the out break of WW1 all imports of German toys , trains , etc were halted .  Ives had the whole 1 gauge American market ... which quickly died .  Ives jumped to standard/ wide/ 2 1/4"/ 2 1/8"  Gauge in 1921 ( much to the disgust of Lionel)  to stay alive and get in on the "upscale" big train market.   When import restrictions where lifted in the 20s' ... the German makers found  no  1 gauge market left in America ....  so to have any hope of sales  in America  re-gauging / re- tooling/ adapting to Standard gauge was their only choice. 

Cheers Carey

hojack posted:

Rob, I have not seen either, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.  Fred SNCF231E knows of a steam engine with cowcatcher for American market.  Bing made a great (and really big) standard gauge American caboose in both NYC and Pennsy, but I have not seen a Marklin to go with these cars.  I use the European version when I run my Marklin freight. Click here and scroll down to the video. There is an 8-wheel and a 4-wheel "bobber" in the video.  Not really an American "caboose".

There is a Marklin user's group, I have not joined, but they may have more info.  They were talking about a Marklin Standard Gauge turntable at one point.  I know Marklin made Standard Gauge 3-rail tubular track. 

 

Thanks for all this info, Hojack; it's so interesting and much appreciated. Wonderful pieces of history you have there.

Last edited by Firewood
asmith1440 posted:

Thanks to all!  Love the detailed information, Hojack.  And your rolling stock is magnificent.  As for locos, the Tinplate Legends in Action vol. 3 segment (at about 24:35 minutes) on John Santis' collection shows one:  

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That's interesting - the Americanized 4-4-2 looks like an adaptation of the Marklin Gauge 1 North British Atlantic, photos of which show electric or live steam versions. The live steam engine has slightly different wheel covers and the venting around the firebox. 

The North British was a Scottish railway that reflected an 1800s powers-that-be notion of calling Scotland "North Britain", a political idea that went nowhere.

Just to add fuel to the fire, here's C B & Q #590 with a 6-wheel European-style tender, a 2-4-2 of 1895 later rebuilt to a 4-4-2.

I wonder if Marklin sought to exploit the resemblance? 

.......or maybe PRR #269:

http://prr.railfan.net/diagram...te&sz=sm&fr=

 Eodd, #269-4-4-2 Steam Loco

Last edited by Firewood

As mentioned before until now I cannot find anything in the written history of Märklin about Standard Gauge, but the trains show it has been available. I read this text in the book "Great Toys Märklin 1895-1914": In both Paris and London and almost certainly in the uSA and other importing countries, the wholesaler/agent also ran a repair service on Märklin's behalf. This meant that toys could be repaired locally without the need to be returned to Göppingen. Models could be adapted or mechanisms exchanged there; if, for example, a retailer had a request for a particular locomotive with a clockwork motor a steam version could be adapted and fitted with a clockwork mechanism at the agent's workshop....

Maybe this is how standard gauge Märklin models arrived? I will try to find out more somehow.

Regards

Fred

hojack posted:

Rob, I have not seen either, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.  Fred SNCF231E knows of a steam engine with cowcatcher for American market.  Bing made a great (and really big) standard gauge American caboose in both NYC and Pennsy, but I have not seen a Marklin to go with these cars.  I use the European version when I run my Marklin freight. Click here and scroll down to the video. There is an 8-wheel and a 4-wheel "bobber" in the video.  Not really an American "caboose".

There is a Marklin user's group, I have not joined, but they may have more info.  They were talking about a Marklin Standard Gauge turntable at one point.  I know Marklin made Standard Gauge 3-rail tubular track. 

 

Thanks David.

A few years ago I visited with one of the European collector/dealers who sets up in the banquet room during the bandit meet at the Holiday Inn prior to each York meet. He had several Marklin four wheel Gauge 1 freight cars with Lionel latch couplers. He advised me that in the mid-1930s ('34-'35?) FAO Shwartz (sp?) contracted with Marklin to produce these cars.

I have one of these which I had picked up several years before talking with him. It is a searchlight car, Marklin all the way, with a spoon pick-up for the light, cast spoke wheels gauged for standard track, Lionel latch couplers, and rubber-stamped on the bottom "M'A'RKLIN""Germany". There are no signs of repainting or modification of the original product other than my replacing the missing wire between the pick-up and the light assembly.

I would have to say that based on our conversation and the example in my collection that Marklin did in fact make standard gauge freight cars for a brief period for an American specialty toy retailer. When my camera is up and running I'll post a couple of pictures.

win86 posted:

As mentioned in my reply above, these are pictures of the Marklin searchlight car in my possession. The car measures 7 3/4" long. Its latch couplers are the correct height to align with those on the Lionel 513 were its coupler not bent slightly down.

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This is a Märklin 1964/1 Gauge 1 car  made from 1929 to 1933 (See here) but modified, by Märklin (or their importer in USA?) for Standard Gauge. The axle guards are bent outward to get them aligned for the wider gauge:

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Regards

Fred

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