Menard's Deuce And A Half Flatcar. Scale? Got the answer.

Alan,

   What are the Menard's ident order numbers on the Black Flat Car, with WWII Deuce and a 1/2,  I would like to order one from Menard's for my US Army SF Train, ASAP.  If it's not from Menard's where did you purchase it?  Frankly scale or not I like them both and own the wood style flat Car already.

PCRR/Dave

I don't believe Menards made the black car with the deuce and a half.  It as used to compare or determine scale with the Menard's deuce and trailer! I wish they would make it, I'd add it to the two Menards deuce and trailers I have!

Very good info!! Thanks for posting this as it has sure been a hot topic. The detail on that Menards car is outstanding!!

FYI, I would say both trucks are 1/50 scale.  A resin version of a Solido die cast tuck. The Solidos I've been putting them on MTH flats for the last few years. They are part of my military train. On the Menard's first truck with small tanker (also a Solido copy) the flat car looks to be a copy of a Pola mold that Lionel used in the late 70's-80's for their standard O Flats (no brake wheel)  I'm glad to see Menards reissuing these trucks in resin instead of die cast.  They are a lot lighter.

Have fun with them....Andy O.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Alan,

   What are the Menard's ident order numbers on the Black Flat Car, with WWII Deuce and a 1/2,  I would like to order one from Menard's for my US Army SF Train, ASAP.  If it's not from Menard's where did you purchase it?  Frankly scale or not I like them both and own the wood style flat Car already.

PCRR/Dave

The black flat car is not the Menard's.  And, I don't know what you mean indent order numbers.

Alan

Then Donald Duck would order one because it is in scale!

Measure it!

The full scale 2-1/2 ton truck dimensions:

Length = 22-ft 10-in. (about 5-3/4 inches in 1:48 scale)

Width = 7-ft 9-in. (about 1-15/16 inches in 1:48 scale)

Height (to cab) = 9-ft 3-in. (about 2-5/16 inches in 1:48 scale)

Alex

Does anyone know when they started calling them deuce and 1/2?   WWII they were called CCKW's.  Just saw a real one a couple of weeks that had been recently restored by some people who restore a lot of old Military equipment and they weren't sure when the name was changed.

clinchfield bill posted:

Does anyone know when they started calling them deuce and 1/2?   WWII they were called CCKW's.  Just saw a real one a couple of weeks that had been recently restored by some people who restore a lot of old Military equipment and they weren't sure when the name was changed.

"Duece and a Half", as far as I can tell, is either late 50s or 'Nam era. There is NO documentation anywhere that supports they were ever called that in WW2. A military vehicle magazine once offered a prize for anyone who could provide WW2 documentation of that term, and nobody ever provided anything to support it.

In fact, they were called GMCs or Jimmies more often than anything in WW2.

CCKW comes from the early designation of using letters to represent type and manufacturers. For example, the Jeep was actually either a MB (Willys made) or a GPW (Ford made). The M-series designation was used for armored vehicles in WW2, but not for soft-skin ones until the late 40s.

CCKW means:

C- 1941 design acceptance

C- Conventional cab (same cab was used on the 1 1/2 tons, too)

K- 6X6 All-wheel drive

W- Dual axles in the rear

Here I am leading a convoy of WW2 vehicles at the wheel of my 1944 Willys MB. Right behind me is a CCKW, I think also made in 1944:

FYI, the early closed-cab CCKW in the first photo is made by Solido and is 1/50 scale. They're not easy to find and they're the only early 2 1/2 tons that are made in diecast in that scale. I have three of them that I've re-painted and decaled (as the color of the models is off and invasion' stars weren't on stateside vehicle) but they don't look right with my 1/43 scale Jeeps and Weapons carriers. I'll probably be selling them or at least putting them way in the background:

Ident numbers could be Menard's ordering/stock number. Could also be WWII era and the reporting marks would not be DODX. Probably USAX for the flatcar, unless it comes undecorated and you do your own painting/lettering.

Thanks P-51 greatly appreciated. 

I have two of these and they are my favorite along with the tanks on flat cars.  They really look awesome.  BigRail

It seems you are proving they are scale size by comparing them next to a model which you admit you don't know if it is scale size.  Is that keen marketing or what?  Someone is doing something right. Right?

mtnhi7 posted:

Ident numbers could be Menard's ordering/stock number. Could also be WWII era and the reporting marks would not be DODX. Probably USAX for the flatcar, unless it comes undecorated and you do your own painting/lettering.

Most of the rolling stock the Army had stateside (and there was a lot less of it than people think there was in that timeframe) that I've seen photos of had a simple USA for the reporting remarks.

Thanks, P-51. That's helpful. Not too much info on military rolling stock. I did learn that most of the Army's cars were tank cars for POLs (petroleum, oils, lubricants); the Navy had a smaller fleet of tank cars, mostly for chemicals used in propellants. In the mid- to late 1950s all the military rolling stock was brought into the Army's Transportation Command, though each service branch still owned the cars they had purchased.  Still haven't found the date USAX was first used; DODX came after, 1960s I think. Can't enlarge the Menards photo enough to discern the reporting marks except to see "UNITED STATES ARMY"  on the side of the flatcar.

It's all good, as very  few model railroaders get WW2 military rolling stock right, mostly because you have to go through a lot of books to find decent photos to go from.

I hadn't paid much attention to the Menards cars, but this is one I definitely like.

AGHRMatt posted:

I hadn't paid much attention to the Menards cars, but this is one I definitely like.

I haven't been impressed with the accuracy of their stuff but it's moot as I don't model in 3-rail, but I agree this one is cool and if I did model 3-rail, I'd have bought one.

According to my father, "Deuce and a half" dates from WWII.  I can't document it since he's been dead for 12 and a half years, now.  A lot of terms get used in speech that don't get put on paper.

Here is a link to the car on Menard's site.

Bob

palallin posted:

According to my father, "Deuce and a half" dates from WWII.  I can't document it since he's been dead for 12 and a half years, now.  A lot of terms get used in speech that don't get put on paper.

Yeah, that's one of those things that shows up in books today, but there's really no evidence at all, anywhere, it was ever actually used during WW2.

Just like dog tag notches really weren't to stick the tags between teeth of dead GIs, it's an urban legend of WW2 that won't go away.

And like all urban legends, there'll always be someone who'll say someone else (who is not around anymore or they can't find them today) will support it. I defy all of them to find any reference of a GMC as a deuce and a half in print in any form from that timeframe, even in a letter written at the time.

You're not going to find it. Anywhere.

And like all urban legends, you won't find any references anywhere before the late 1940s (and probably later than that) to them ever having been called that but people will declare it so anyway in spite of no period evidence anywhere on earth to support them.

It's almost as annoying as hearing people talk about buying a WW2 Jeep, new in the crate, long after WW2... http://wwiijeepparts.com/Archi...W2JeepsInCrates.html That never happened to anyone either, yet, I can never display my 1944 at any show without someone coming up and telling me how their neighbor's college roommate had heard of a guy who had bought one. And again, like all urban legends, you'll never meet the person who did, or find any evidence of any kind to support it.

Won't stop them from declaring it so, anyway...

p51 posted:

palallin posted:

According to my father, "Deuce and a half" dates from WWII.  I can't document it since he's been dead for 12 and a half years, now.  A lot of terms get used in speech that don't get put on paper.

Yeah, that's one of those things that shows up in books today, but there's really no evidence at all, anywhere, it was ever actually used during WW2.

Just like dog tag notches really weren't to stick the tags between teeth of dead GIs, it's an urban legend of WW2 that won't go away.

His experience with them vehicles did not come from books but from spending time on and around them during the war with the 82nd and the 101st.  He had essentially zero contact with them after the war and certainly read nothing about them.

There are a lot of documented "facts" that never happened, and a lot of things that did that no one documented. 

Dad actually corrected me one day by saying, "No, we called them deuce-and-a-halfs." 

Not proof in a larger sense, but the man had a good, clear memory

When I was drafted in 1957 the trucks were "deuce and a half", possibly from the Korean War.  I was at Ft. Eustis in the 80s and they still  had cars  and track from when they trained GIs in railroading. Also, a long time ago, there were Army boxcars at the Mt. Union  EBT yard but I doubt if they were WW II. Amazing that how much stuff was around from WW II so little documentation.

I'm suppose to be getting mine tomorrow along with 3 of the smaller cars one with the  tanker trailer, one with the 2 sedans, and the last with a tank on it I'm wonder how out of place the smaller ones will look with the scale 50' flat.

Wish Menards would offer a rig to pull the trailer maybe 2 on a scale flat or something like that.  Might get me to buy another trailer flat. 

How long are the cars????

A 40' flat would be approximately 10" long and 50' would be 12 1/2" long if scale.

Ron

So all this great discussion of the Deuce a half car from Menards got me motivated to run one of mine. I bought 2 a while back and never ran them! Runs really well but I noticed there is a bow downward between the cab and the box. Looks like the screws were tightened way too much, ( Chinese Wheaties?) I know this was a problem with the truck on the Seed and Feed building sometimes. Any ideas on how to straighten it back up? I already loosened the screws, no affect! The other one I have is perfect! They look great though and run well! Make a great consist with 8 or so!

Gentlemen,

    My Father was a WWII UDT SeaBee my Uncle Scotty a WWII 1st & 3rd Div Marine, the term Deuce and a 1/2 was 1st a slang term, used by the WWII GI's thru out the military, it was not the actual Nomenclature of the vehicles, later it became the term used by the Military to designate certain vehicles, my Father and Uncles used the term all the time, and they were WWII active combat military.  My buddy Don & my uncle Buff were in the Korean War, they both drove a Deuce and a 1/2, I fought in Viet Nam, the Military term for the 2 1/2 Ton Trucks was Deuce and a 1/2.

PCRR/Dave

From what I can see they look like the WW2 style 2& a half ton cargo truck with either a steel top or canvas top. The style of the cab & the hood painting gives it away as being before the 1970's. When I was in Germany with the US Army our trucks had a camouflage paint job.

Lee Fritz

I believe the WW2 confusion might be with a two-ton truck of similar size used during the war. The amphibious DUKW's ("Ducks") were based on that platform and they saw action through the middle to the end of WW2 (and beyond). I believe they had GM truck mechanicals.

They used several different kinds of trucks during WW II and, typical GI, a deuce and a half, meant a truck-any truck. 

That echoing sound that you hear in the distance that sounds like a pile driver is me banging my head against the desk. I know there will always be someone who thinks that these trucks were called "Deuce and a Half"s in WW2 but they really, really  weren't (though it never fails someone will say so anyway). Several vehicle historians resolved this point more than a few years ago and it's well known and documented among military vehicle historians.

For that matter, the vehicle we all know as a "Jeep" wasn't called that based on the term "General Purpose" or, "General Issue" as only a limited-run 1941 prototype development vehicle by Ford was called a GP (and it didn't stand for either term anyway). But people have been declaring for decades that the word Jeep came from either of those terms. It never did. But try telling the people who haven't done any serious research on the point...

Ducks were a very distinctive vehicle that few would confuse with the standard 352-series 2.5 ton truck. DUKWs were also made by GMC.

FYI, Studebaker also made a similar truck, called the US6. Very few were used by the US military though, as most were sent to the Russians as part of lend-lease. They're really tough to find today.

Be careful !!   Don't hurt the desk !

P51,

   If you know a WWII Vet who was an actual Combat Squid or Jar Head or even a Doggie, ask him what they called the 2 1/2 Ton Troup Carrier and see what the old Combat Vet  tells you, most historians never fought a war, their proper nomenclature and the slang used by the men who fought in combat,  were in many cases quite different.  Mud Marines and UDT Seabees had their own slang, which actually turned into military terminology, later in history.  As I said the actual military terminology and the combat slang were often quite different, and passed on down thru different eras in the military.   2 1/2 Ton Troup Carrier - in an active war zone  was called what, by the Grunts during WWII?  The Thompson, the BAR and the Carbine also had exacting military monanclature, used by  military ordnance, the men who actually carried those weapons, in actual combat used, slang terms for them, much of that slang terminology remains even today, Metal Toy - Viet Nam Era slang for the 1st generation M16.   Careful with the head.

PCRR/Dave

Lee, I'm sorry, and I am not trying to be difficult.  But how many of those vehicle historians were riding in those trucks during the war?  I am aware that the plural of anecdote is not data, but I also would not look into the face of a man who fought from N. Africa to Berchtesgarten and tell him that he did NOT use a term that he said he did.