Menard's Photo of flatbed trucks

Menard's vendor in China could be buying them from the same supplier as Lionel's vendor does. It's a very different world in the manufacturing district of China.  I have some first hand knowledge. 

Roger, I can neither argue for or against your observation  here.  I am also not sure if your statement is meant to imply impropriety, but what I can say is that almost every post that has suggested impropriety by one manufacturer over the other has never in recent years to my knowledge ever gone to court and been sued. (My caveat is "to my knowledge). It seems that a company would know patent rights and legal issues prior to marketing a product.

Rick

AMCDave is right. Here in the US there are copyright and patent laws, but in China it's a different story. The problem arises if a US based firm specifically instructs their Chinese vendor to copy something made in China for some other US firm, and that there is proof of this.

If the manufacturing vendors in China are duplicating some product and they do it on their own with no specific instructions from the American buyer, and then offer the product to that company, there's nothing that can be done.

If you recall, Bachmann said clearly they had nothing to do with the production of the Menard's box cars. Some speculated we might see Bachmann take some kind of legal action. Well, it never happened that I know of, so one could conclude there was no avenue for legal action, OR it wasn't worth the time and money. What would potentially be more of a motivation for legal action is if one company has put a very large sum of money into R&D and tooling or electronics, and then another company copies that.

As far as the OP and concerning this Menard's truck, I believe this is the same truck that came with the Menard's scale flatcar when it was introduced... the same features were advertised for the trucks on those cars. And that was announced before the latest Lionel truck being used on the LionScale cars, which was just recently announced. And the Lionel truck has more design features to make scale conversion easier.

From my experience with traditional train products, if you look at something like plastic trucks, they appear to be identical and yet they are not. There are subtle differences, like with armature length, knuckle size, diameter of the rivet, etc. So you can't always easily exchange parts from one company to another company's product.

But as Allan Miller used to say, we brought this on ourselves. The train consumers of this relatively small 3-rail market wanted much more variety, so the companies went overseas. With the lower production costs, they could then offer lots of new expensive product tooling otherwise not possible in the US. Not as many regulations in China as compared to the US, but neither is there the legal protection.

Brianel,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Having worked with a company who imported items from China and having to deal with them which is almost impossible. 

The company importing the product almost has no say on how things get made, you find out once it arrives in the states. Unless your a huge company and can have afford to have people onsite for QC and making sure things are being done according their contract.

If there is mistake in the engineering drawings, the chinese will never ask for a clarification, it is built as is and you will only find out when it is delivered. 

Not the best way to do business. 

Dave

Is this for future production or current stock? I have visited the Menard's site to browse their train offerings and haven't seen any products with these style trucks.

When I saw this subject title, I though that Menards was offering over the road/highway tractor trailer and/or standard trucks, i.e. "flatbed trucks". Looks like they are actually "FLATCARS"?

Mike D posted:

Is this for future production or current stock? I have visited the Menard's site to browse their train offerings and haven't seen any products with these style trucks.

I got this photo from a Menard's email wanting to sell their flatbed cars with these trucks. They sure look like Lionel trucks to me....but looks like no one here cares. I am not buying any items that are knock offs or imitation of the real thing.

Roger Wasson posted:

I got this photo from a Menard's email wanting to sell their flatbed cars with these trucks. They sure look like Lionel trucks to me....but looks like no one here cares. I am not buying any items that are knock offs or imitation of the real thing.

I understand not wanting to buy products that are 'ripped' off in an illegal way. 

But what if, as I stated earlier, The trucks are sourced by Lionel and Menard's FROM THE SAME VENDOR?  When we manufactured die cast model cars in China I was shocked at the manufacturing process.  When we wanted a small change to the markings on the tires (race cars) we were told that our vendor did not make the tires they were manufactured in a nearby factory by a sub contractor....our vendor could not make rubber products.  We found the same thing about other parts of our models.  Parts for our products were made in many different small factories, put in a large bin and taken to our vendor for assembly.  I have no idea if this is going on with our trains.....and NO ONE will tell you if it is.....only way is to go to China and check yourself......if you can get in. IMHO only

I think I have some cars from other manufacturers with similar trucks. Think about this, all of the Bettendorf style trucks made for the last several decades by all O-gauge manufacturers use the same type trucks that Lionel introduced a long time ago. Just because it is similar doesn't make it a rip off.

 I think folks replied right away to your post and told you why there may not be an issue. Seems you might be in a snoot for no reason. I am also impressed that you got an e-mail from Menards in a sales pitch. I know I have purchased a few things and have had them shipped to the house, and have never received an e-mail about their products. It may be that I live within their regional store radius. I think your next step instead of asking questions on the forum that nobody can answer for you with anything except opinion is to contact the Lionel offices and let their lawyers sniff it out. As in every other situation with large companies, it would appear that patent and copyright issues have been investigated fairly thoroughly before a product is released.

Rick

Ranger Rick posted:

Roger, I can neither argue for or against your observation  here.  I am also not sure if your statement is meant to imply impropriety, but what I can say is that almost every post that has suggested impropriety by one manufacturer over the other has never in recent years to my knowledge ever gone to court and been sued. (My caveat is "to my knowledge). It seems that a company would know patent rights and legal issues prior to marketing a product.

Rick

 

Um, does Lionel ripping off MTH's entire product line ring a bell?  Lionel's illegal copying activities were so grand in scale that they almost bankrupted MTH.  Lionel was sued (in Korea and the US) and lost big time.  US courts ruled that Lionel pay MTH $40 million in damages.  Lionel appealed and lost then filed bankruptcy. 

RogerWasson:  If that's your position, you may want to get rid of any Lionel products you have that were made from 1998 to 2003. 

In my humble opinion, I have no sympathy for any manufacturer that has their intellectual property stolen if they manufacture overseas.  You make a deal with the devil, well, you get what you get. 

Ps.. Kudos to Menards for continuing to improve their products.

Roger Wasson posted:

Mike D posted:

Is this for future production or current stock? I have visited the Menard's site to browse their train offerings and haven't seen any products with these style trucks.

I got this photo from a Menard's email wanting to sell their flatbed cars with these trucks. They sure look like Lionel trucks to me....but looks like no one here cares. I am not buying any items that are knock offs or imitation of the real thing.

If it is a direct copy it will have to include the Lionel random uncoupling right?  Guessing Lionel couldn't correct that issue. IIRC Mike R said they went back with thumbtacks because of it.

Of everything Lionel sells, how much of it do they actually own the tooling for?

BobbyD posted:

Of everything Lionel sells, how much of it do they actually own the tooling for?

Lionel and MTH are importers.  They own no manufacturing in China. Lionel gets points for the Weaver stuff being made here.....but that's all. WbB might be called a manufacture but I am not 100% sure of the real relationship there.