"MINT" and "RARE"

After reading many of the stories of fakes in the Postwar collecting heyday "rare" is truly a buyer beware term.

My definition of Mint is, the item is in original packaging, NEVER been opened or played with.  Once the item is removed from its original packaging, it is No longer Mint.

In this day and age for me, it's much safer to see stuff Like-New than Mint. I have no clue if it'll work or not or if everything is still 100% intact if it's still Mint (it's not been recently tested or opened to check on it cosmetically).

OVER USED incorrectly.

 Sometimes when I see some one list something all original or in mint condition and it's obvious it isn't. I'll email them and call them out on it.

Something else I noticed w/the remake of the Lionel postwar Budd cars, someone listed them individually as a postwar Budd car w/box. Reading the description, they say nothing about it being a re-issue of the postwar Budd car. A quick give away is when they post a pic of the underside.

I also collect and restore AC Gilbert erector sets. It seems that everyone who has one thinks it’s rare and priceless. I see the same thing with trains. 

I have a soft spot for Marx, i see single cars that are pretty much trashed that people say are rare and want 25 bucks for. 

When I do find a complete set in a box the word mint is often used.  

I have seen one truly mint erector set. It was a very rare one and it had a price that was in line.

I have never seen a mint Marx set nor do I ever expect to.

I do have rare erector sets. I have never been able to find one that was complete without having been restored.  There is way more to restoring an erector set than tossing in a few pieces and getting out the red paint.

As the American flyer guys know Mr. Gilbert had no qualms about changing Production mid run or even several times a month. 

I hate the terms mint and rare. As much as I hate to admit it to me it’s the first sign that whoever I am dealing with has no clue what they are talking about 

Agreed.  Mint means flawless.  The word rare is meaningless sales prattle to me.  There are an almost infininte number of rare things.  If it is rare and in demand, that's when the item as value.

So are you guys telling me that the Looney Toons trolley I saw running on a circle of track for hours on end at a recent show and was for sale with a tag on it saying ‘Mint’ isn’t really mint?!!! 😜 Hilarious!! We all have good stories about these labels.

I just looked at the seller and laughed. How can something be mint that is out of a box and running???!!

Always do your due diligence gentlemen. 

It ain’t just trains, that’s for sure. I have a thing for old Jeeps, and the claims folks make are really scary. Words like “mint” and “restored” to describe a cheap paint job on an old CJ with a Chevy V8, full size truck axles and an interior from Lord-knows-where. People just have no shame.

Hand them the TCA grading standards and see what they say.

Of course, some folks used to say "for standard gauge, you add a grade".  Funny, but I've never been able to find that in any TCA literature.

IMO, truly "mint" items belong in a museum.  If I buy it, it will be run if at all possible.  I'm not going to buy a sealed box from 60-75 years ago - even if unopened, who knows what might have occurred - zinc pest, etc.

bigtruckpete posted:

So are you guys telling me that the Looney Toons trolley I saw running on a circle of track for hours on end at a recent show and was for sale with a tag on it saying ‘Mint’ isn’t really mint?!!! 😜 Hilarious!! We all have good stories about these labels.

I just looked at the seller and laughed. How can something be mint that is out of a box and running???!!

Always do your due diligence gentlemen. 

Pete, you should have grabbed that trolley off the tracks, and taken a big chomp out of it....hand it back to the fella, and tell him...” it don’t taste like mint!”.........Pat

In my lexicon, "mint" refers to the condition of an item - not whether it is in a box or was ever opened.

If, in fact, an item has never been opened and is actually "new in the box", then it should be described as "NIB".

Obviously, one's interpretation of what type of condition an item has to be in order to be classified as "mint" is in the eye of the beholder and "caveat emptor" always applies. That is why certain collectibles (baseball cards, comic books, etc.) have  adopted grading standards so people know what they are buying.

"Rare" refers not to the condition of an item, but to its production numbers and limited availability in the market. Of course, how "rare" an item is also in the eye of the beholder.

As an example, while a 1912 Honus Wagner T-106 card is extremely rare, no known examples are mint or NIB.

I was just looking at an engine on the Bay and the title said "Brand New". In the description section it said like new hardly run. Go figure. Don

WF wilson posted:

"... the terms mint and rare. As much as I hate to admit it to me it’s the first sign that whoever I am dealing with has no clue what they are talking about 

Amen, all too often, this is so very true and unfortunately in some instances you might even be dealing with a scamming con artist.

This is what I think of when I see mint

And thus is what I think of when I see rare

With instant access to a billion different sellers and items you will see a lot of "puffing".  It is normal, and even legal.  Don't even bother trying to criticize a seller's puffing or price.  It is a useless exercise, and probably not very polite at that.  Sometimes it is difficult to resist, but resist anyway.  Plenty of good stuff at reasonable prices . . .

Opinion.

TeleDoc posted:

My definition of Mint is, the item is in original packaging, NEVER been opened or played with.  Once the item is removed from its original packaging, it is No longer Mint.

That is correct.

Mint = I want to sell this to you.

Rare = I want to sell this to you.

Highly Collectible = I want to sell this to you.

Not worth much = I want to buy this from you.

If you are selling it, it is mint. If you are buying it, it is excellent.  Same with coins.

dkdkrd posted:

That said, there are, indeed, some notable collectors who have found truly "mint" items.

Indeed there are, and they are the ones who have generally been around for a long time and who truly know how to value items based on condition and scarcity (both are important to most serious collectors).

Alan, Like Bernie R. Dr. Mint

Richie C. posted:

In my lexicon, "mint" refers to the condition of an item - not whether it is in a box or was ever opened.

If, in fact, an item has never been opened and is actually "new in the box", then it should be described as "NIB".

........................

Even if technically incorrect, I tend to agree with that, especially in today's modern items.  "Mint" in modern production is really "Unknown".  True, it was always "unknown", but in today's manufacturing environment, I think the odds are stacked against something unopened truly being mint.

Per TCA standards, we are all wrong in the above discussion since the TCA grading system abandoned the "Poor-Fair-Good-Excellent-Like New-Mint" system a fair number of years back.  But people are still going to have a feel for those conditions better than the more descriptive numbering system now adopted.  (and yes, I realize not everyone is in TCA, so the "Mint", etc. system is still used a lot elsewhere.)

The "mystery" unopened boxes also have spawned lots of people to adopt MIB (Mint in Box) or MIMB (Mint in Mint Box) to try to describe those scenarios better.

Let's not even get into how it's totally feasible that something can be re-packed to look like it did when it left the factory.  It may take some effort, but it's not like there have been built in indicators that are hard to fake.  Lionel (modern) tried to come close to that with the somewhat translucent and blue writing "Factory Sealed" stickers they put on the bag for some items, but those are generally easy to peel away from the bag with little or no damage to the bag, so it would be hard to tell if someone opened it up and replaced the seal, assuming they can carefully re-fold the bag over the box as it was when received.  It was a nice attempt though.

I'm not generally buying something if I'm not allowed to open the box and visually inspect it for flaws. Obviously if a seller is hung up on the "never out of box = mint" scenario, I'm theoretically varying the condition by doing so, so we will not even begin to have a discussion about a sale.

But I'm also not in the market for sealed post-war sets that might need to be x-rayed just to see if the contents really are in there.

-Dave

To me "Mint" means it can be handled and observed but not damaged and not used. Rare means few in existence or few available.

Now there are other definitions we deal with all the time. My experience has been with "new in the box". To me that means never used and in perfect condition. I recently bought a TIU from a fellow forum member advertised as new in the box. It arrived with the box plastic liner broken, all but two screws missing from the bottom of the case, all the rubber feet missing and one of the fuses not inserted correctly. Still don't know if it will work. Obviously my definition does not match his of new in the box. Maybe he meant new to the buyer. So everybody has a different twist on what something means. So unless they are a reputable business I am wary anymore.  I agree that visual (pictures) or actually being able to touch and see an item in person will verify it actual condition. You have to be very trusting to believe what people tell you these day's. 

bob2 posted:

With instant access to a billion different sellers and items you will see a lot of "puffing".  It is normal, and even legal.  Don't even bother trying to criticize a seller's puffing or price.  It is a useless exercise, and probably not very polite at that.  Sometimes it is difficult to resist, but resist anyway.  Plenty of good stuff at reasonable prices . . .

Opinion.

Bob,          If it is an item I am interested in I'll make an offer whether I see the item at a train show, on the OGR For Sale Forum or on an Internet auction site listed as Buy It Now.  The seller may not respond, may respond with a counter offer or may accept my offer.  This is truly a 'Nothing ventured, nothing gained' situation.  It doesn't cost a thing to make an offer. 

As a seller I am not offended by reasonable offers. In fact every flyer I send listing the items we have For Sale states 'Reasonable offers are always considered.'       John in Lansing, ILL

Matt Makens posted:

This is what I think of when I see mint

And thus is what I think of when I see rare

that's good Matt

My favorite is "in excellent condition considering its age."

TCA says Mint—Brand New: all original; unused and unblemished. That seems to mean that it can be out of the box. I think that might depend on the era. If it is a modern item, you might expect it to still be in the box. A hundred-year-old item may have sat in a display case. The trick with very old mint items that are not in the box will be how did they keep them in mint condition?  If it sits in a display case, it needs to be humidity controlled and dust free. That was almost impossible 100 years ago.

George

What has to be a joke are the sellers on e-bay who list a freight car as "mint condition" that has been removed from the box to be completely weathered with paints or chalks.

Andrew

They are meaningless as they have no single agreed upon meaning and should thus be ignored.

The term rare, I believe, varies. Like the lionel 252 with the Maroon color scheme. That's "rare" in terms of lionel trains. Though it's still more common than a lot of German locomotives from the same time period, not labeled as "rare". Or at leas, it seems this way from what I've seen (Maybe international sellers are more modest?). I've never really bought anything labeled as "rare" or "mint", normally I search around for all the little things, from people who don't know what an item's worth. I got my oldest O gauge (+100 years old, and running) for ten bucks. It was a repainted Ives Np. 6, Series 1, 1914 Variation Clockwork locomotive. 

Just my two-cents, don't pay it any mind

And as this conversation continues, I just looked up an item on the ever popular online auction site.

It's listed in excellent condition and there is a wheel set missing and it's dirty. ?????????

Ouch, what was it? If it's just a little dirt and some missing wheels, it might not be that bad. As  long  as the seller isn't charging too high for an item in its conditiion

Many sellers don't know ....from Don

And many buyers don't know from Shinola.

I don't even bother with "mint". "Like new" will get my attention. "Rare" could be a rusted hulk of a certain item that hardly ever comes up for sale. "Hard to find" is a better way to describe something. If you do a search on eBay for "sold" items over the past 3 months, and that particular item does not show up, it is not easy to find. Doing this over the span of a year, with no results, makes it hard to find.

Joe Hohmann posted:

I don't even bother with "mint". "Like new" will get my attention. "Rare" could be a rusted hulk of a certain item that hardly ever comes up for sale. "Hard to find" is a better way to describe something. If you do a search on eBay for "sold" items over the past 3 months, and that particular item does not show up, it is not easy to find. Doing this over the span of a year, with no results, makes it hard to find.

I do the same thing, but with automated emails for existing auctions (since those can search within the descriptions as well as the titles, which to the best of my knowledge, sold or concluded auctions can't). 

If I don't receive an email for something where I include the name and item number over a long period of time, it's probably not for sale that often.

In a bit of irony, for one MTH item I was on the prowl for a few years back, I never (to this day, I don't think) have seen a standard issue of this item up for sale.  However when a bunch of MTH factory samples were coming up for sale somewhat regularly, I found one there.  (and it didn't really carry any appreciable premium for being a sample - so I suspect many MTH fans don't consider that a thing to seek the way many Lionel people might). 

To the best of my knowledge/observation, it was pretty much in a perfect "as approved" state, there were no notable flaws that would have been a "fix this before you do the run" type issue.

-Dave

RARE: Something I do not have, but want.

Bill DeBrooke posted:

RARE: Something I do not have, but want.

IMO, here's a good rule.   Rare does not always mean collectable and collectable does not always mean valuable..     Example, the Lionel die-cast Veranda Turbine.  Not very valuable over all these years and not rare.   But very collectable simply because its a standout from all others.    A beautiful well made piece and a joy to operate. 

joe