MPC?

Ponz, the MPC era wasn't exactly Lionel's finest. I've heard people say MPC stands fore More Plastic C@%p. 

Despite the arguably poor quality of trains built during those years, there were some nice pieces that were made then, and we should also be thankful that General Mills/MPC continued the production of Lionel trains. 

John

Grampstrains posted:

Ponz posted:

I just purchased an MPC A-B-A Pensy F3 (Tuscon Red)

I have a Lionel "Preamble Express" F3 Diesel. # 6-8568 I mistakenly bought last year.

Can I expect my recent F3 purchase to sound the same?  Like a coffee grinder?

Ponz

ps - I just learned about MPC

Those engines are thirty years old.  Did you lube them?

As I mentioned, I have only the Preamble as of right now.  It still buzzes like a coffee grinder even in neutral.

Überstationmeister posted:

That's the E-unit. More of a hair clipper than a coffee grinder.

That's right!

Ponz, some of the early MPC stuff wasn't bad. Not as good as the old Lionel as all the F-3s had single motors and such but they ran well out of the box. I never had trouble with them at first. When Lionel moved production to Mexico is when things got bad. I had a friend that got one of the first Southern Pacific Trainmasters. When he opened the box one of the trucks fell off. They had problems with a lot of engines and cars. I forget how long they lasted in Mexico and what was made there but they had to moved back to the U.S. It would be nice if someone listed the stuff that was made South of the Boarder so you could avoid those items.   Don

Not too much was made in Mexico:  the factory there never really got into full-on production, and the experiment was swiftly abandoned when it wasn't able to produce as planned.  The company was already restarting US production when Mr. Kughn came in and effected a long-term rescue.

I had the Tuscan set of F3's back in the mid 70's. For the time they looked and ran great. Yes the buzz of the eunit was annoying  and almost all trains made between 1970 thru 2000 were just as annoying. Between the pulmore motors and the eunit they were nothing like what is made today. 

Hope you got the set at a great price.

Dave

Actually, as I recall, the F3 ABA set had two motors in the lead A.  I had that set many years ago and thought it ran good (especially for the time).  A great looking set!

If you only object to the buzzing of the e-unit, flit the switch to lock it in forward and enjoy running it (after you clean out the old grease and properly lube it.

Happy railroading,

Don

I ran my tuscan Pennsy diesels so much the wheels were grooved. It will always be one of my favorite diesels.

The "buzz" of an E-Unit is part of the beauty of Post war and MPC Lionel trains but if you don't like the "Buzz" you could replace the E-Unit with an electronic E-unit  (or TMCC).

No horn but, I still love this MPC set!

Curt

I have very few MPC era items. Going scale I may even sell the few I have. But the MPC era is a interesting period. Being a model car builder I knew MPC well and feel the purchase of Lionel and MPC, by General Mills, and kinda combining them saved both......it was not the very best examples of each's work.....but we have both today because of the joint venture.  Sorry for straying a bit......

MPC began the modern scale movement:  they launched the Standard O line and brought back the 700 Hudson.

MPC gets a bad rap. Yes, MPC made some duds, especially early on, but that’s been the case in every iteration of Lionel (and every other manufacturer/importer).  A lot of it was as good as or better than postwar.  

As for those F units, a good cleaning/lube of the motors and gears will likely do wonders.

scale rail posted:

When Lionel moved production to Mexico is when things got bad. I had a friend that got one of the first Southern Pacific Trainmasters. When he opened the box one of the trucks fell off.

The 8951 Southern Pacific FM was made in Michigan in 1979, which was 5 or 6 years before Lionel went to Mexico.  The 8378 Wabash FM. Production problems made for low numbers that left the factory, so it’s a rare unit today. The Lionel FM was still made with the same design trucks, frame, Pullmore motor, etc going back to the postwar era regardless of what country it was made in.

http://train-station.com/Pages.../Library/6-8378.html

jim sutter posted:

I ran my tuscan Pennsy diesels so much the wheels were grooved. It will always be one of my favorite diesels.

I have an 8950 Virginian from the same year.  Same problem too. I ran it so much there are grooves in the wheels. I love that thing!

PONZ, You stated you just purchased the PRR A B A.  Make up your mind.  Read the first line in your post.    I copied it for you if it gets altered.   

MIKATT1 posted:

The "buzz" of an E-Unit is part of the beauty of Post war and MPC Lionel trains but if you don't like the "Buzz" you could replace the E-Unit with an electronic E-unit  (or TMCC).

As was said previously, flip the e-unit lever to lock it in forward and it will buzz no more. 

My experience with MPC is they are crap.  Got my son one for Christmas that couldn't pull its own shadow.  When it did move, it wobbled down the track because there were protruding seams on the drivers.

Dennis

As with ALL Lionel, there were occasionally misfires, but I had some very good experiences with the early 1970's MPC.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

PONZ, You stated you just purchased the PRR A B A.  Make up your mind.  Read the first line in your post.    I copied it for you if it gets altered.   

Yes - it's being packed for shipping to me now.

Ponz

 PONZ, if you know who OJ Simpson is you're o.k. 

  IMO, the DC starter sets were mostly responsible for the MPC dissatisfaction. Lots of "holiday train folks" around here (Mich) bought them to help Lionel (Mich) put them under, then on their old ac track already around the tree and saw smoke.

It is also one of the reasons for can motor hatred. Being associated with cheap battery op toys that died quicky most of the time was another (imo)

The more colorful plastics also looked too much like the cheaper, brittle plastics of the day; time needed pass to prove it was an equal performer in that area.

Less metal and more plastic was readily apparent; how could "cheap" not be perceived?

Even today the heft of metal almost instantly infers higher quality in our minds. Back then, plastic items, like say a phone, needed a big metal slug in it to get thtngs to weigh enough that folks would buy.

What has happened is our styles and expectations have changed to better accept plastics as being associated with quality vs cheapness

Much is often said against MPC. If you really don't like it, just ship it to me and some of the many other conventionally operating members who do. I'd rather have trains that run and can be maintained without a degree in computer technology.

Adriatic posted:

 PONZ, if you know who OJ Simpson is you're o.k. 

  IMO, the DC starter sets were mostly responsible for the MPC dissatisfaction. Lots of "holiday train folks" around here (Mich) bought them to help Lionel (Mich) put them under, then on their old ac track already around the tree and saw smoke.

It is also one of the reasons for can motor hatred. Being associated with cheap battery op toys that died quicky most of the time was another (imo)

The more colorful plastics also looked too much like the cheaper, brittle plastics of the day; time needed pass to prove it was an equal performer in that area.

Less metal and more plastic was readily apparent; how could "cheap" not be perceived?

Even today the heft of metal almost instantly infers higher quality in our minds. Back then, plastic items, like say a phone, needed a big metal slug in it to get thtngs to weigh enough that folks would buy.

What has happened is our styles and expectations have changed to better accept plastics as being associated with quality vs cheapness

I recently bought and returned a set of Broadway Limited passenger cars that were weighted down.  They would not roll very well even after I lubed the crap out of everything.  They were made in China.

artyoung posted:

Much is often said against MPC. If you really don't like it, just ship it to me and some of the many other conventionally operating members who do. I'd rather have trains that run and can be maintained without a degree in computer technology.

You can have my Preamble Express # 6-8568 for $115 shipped.  Only minor scratches on one side. The box has a couple of minor tears and the cellophane window on the box is missing.   

I have the F3 set up you speak of and they run great. Although some like the buzz you refer to as a coffee grinder, I don't so I had a local repair shop install an electronic e-unit and they run very quietly. While they had it open they went through it, lubricated the armature, gears and axles.  They installed an e-unit left over from a tmcc conversion so it was free.  If the shells are flawless you got a good deal.

Ponz: picked up one years back for $70 at York. Still running.

Keith k posted:

I have the F3 set up you speak of and they run great. Although some like the buzz you refer to as a coffee grinder, I don't so I had a local repair shop install an electronic e-unit and they run very quietly. While they had it open they went through it, lubricated the armature, gears and axles.  They installed an e-unit left over from a tmcc conversion so it was free.  If the shells are flawless you got a good deal.

I'm interested to learn more about the installation of electronic e-units.  So - it's not the motor itself making the noise?

Ponz

Plastic doesn't rule out cheapness today, lol. Most production lines do have some duds too. Today I see MPC as "affordable"

Live and learn!  Thanks DGJONES for the tip.  I had no idea that flipping the switch into 'forward only' cancels that awful noise!

 Would someone please be nice enough to give me quick explanation? 

Ponz

I am not an electronics expert but the buz is created by the rotating drum inside the e-unit. The drum becomes loose or magnetized and vibrates. Locking it in forward stops the ability to move and the unit goes silent.  Someone else here will explain in better detail. I have some that are louder than others

Ponz,  you stated you just purchased it and did not state you have not received it.  No problem I understand your concern.    I stay clear of that MPC for many reasons.  If you buy it cheap, it does not matter.  I see lots of the MPC and it does not have much value.  The guys gave good advice on the electronic E unit.  A Dallee model 400 is the right fit for MPC.

Once cleaned, lubed, and oiled properly, if you're still hearing a loud noise, it's probably the e-unit. 

You can purchase an electronic e-unit from Lionel or Dallee Electronics. Those won't make any noise, and are fairly simple to install. You can also purchase a postwar e-unit that might be quieter. There are multiple ways to make the e-unit in the engine silent using capacitors or something like that. I'll have to look into my archives to find the trick to quieting down mechanical e-units. Believe it or not, it used to be a common topic on this forum. 

Lastly, I'm tired of hearing how MPC Lionel is crap. I'm sorry someone had a bad experience with one product  30-plus years ago, but who has a smooth-running latest production Mogul right now? It wasn't all crap, so if whatever you purchased was, and you hate MPC, just don't reply to MPC topics. Ponz is worried about what I would consider a fair purchase, and any problem can be fixed, so piling up with the "crap" opinions, and that's what they are, just opinions, isn't any help. I, and some other members of the forum, can help with any MPC problems Ponz may encounter, so leave your opinions to yourself, and let's deal with facts. We can help Ponz with any problems that may arise without a bunch of unhelpful hecklers.

Ponz, I think you made a great deal on a nice, conventional AC powered ABA f3 set.

brr posted:

Once cleaned, lubed, and oiled properly, if you're still hearing a loud noise, it's probably the e-unit. 

You can purchase an electronic e-unit from Lionel or Dallee Electronics. Those won't make any noise, and are fairly simple to install. You can also purchase a postwar e-unit that might be quieter.

Or you can just learn to enjoy the original sound unit that they threw in gratis when you bought the engine  

brr posted:

Once cleaned, lubed, and oiled properly, if you're still hearing a loud noise, it's probably the e-unit. 

You can purchase an electronic e-unit from Lionel or Dallee Electronics. Those won't make any noise, and are fairly simple to install. You can also purchase a postwar e-unit that might be quieter. There are multiple ways to make the e-unit in the engine silent using capacitors or something like that. I'll have to look into my archives to find the trick to quieting down mechanical e-units. Believe it or not, it used to be a common topic on this forum. 

Lastly, I'm tired of hearing how MPC Lionel is crap. I'm sorry someone had a bad experience with one product  30-plus years ago, but who has a smooth-running latest production Mogul right now? It wasn't all crap, so if whatever you purchased was, and you hate MPC, just don't reply to MPC topics. Ponz is worried about what I would consider a fair purchase, and any problem can be fixed, so piling up with the "crap" opinions, and that's what they are, just opinions, isn't any help. I, and some other members of the forum, can help with any MPC problems Ponz may encounter, so leave your opinions to yourself, and let's deal with facts. We can help Ponz with any problems that may arise without a bunch of unhelpful hecklers.

Ponz, I think you made a great deal on a nice, conventional AC powered ABA f3 set.

Thank you!

I feel pretty stupid for not researching any of this ahead of time.  I'm impulsive by nature.  

My subsequent research found a post by gunnrunnerjohn? on another board that stated:

It is possible to power only the solenoid (not the whole engine) with DC current by using a bridge rectifier or a diode and a capacitor, which I did on one particularly noisy engine (silenced it completely). There was a thread on that topic a while back with a lot of good info.

It's not that difficult to power it with DC, and that will solve the issue of it making noise.  A simple 1N4003 diode and a 470uf 35V capacitor to power the coil and it'll be silent.

The diode anode (the end without the band) goes to power, the cathode (the end with the band) connects to the E-Unit coil.  The 470uf cap connects with the positive to the cathode and coil connection, the negative end to frame ground (outer tracks).

**********************************************************************

I'm much less apprehensive, now, regarding this era of equipment now that I know it's not the motor making all the noise. Plus, that Preamble Express does a decent job of pulling a long consist. It does struggle a little out of the gate, though.

I have ordered the diode and capacitor to tinker a bit.

I'm also please to find out that the ABA on the way has two motors! 

Thanks - Ponz

 

Ponz, you purchased a top-of-the-line engine set from 1979, I think. Those were made using the original Lionel tooling for the f3, but with much better paint and lettering than postwar Lionel. These were the first engines that Lionel began adding back the detail of the original f3s from 1949-52. There may be a quirk or two, but, as you discovered, there are "work-arounds" for those quirks. When the engines arrive, open up the packaging, enjoy the models, heck, give them a quick run around the layout, then lube them up and see what problems, if any, you find. Post them here, and someone, maybe myself, can help you through them. 

Congratulations on your purchase!!

MPC is what got me back into trains because at the time I could not afford PW. Enjoy your new model, with a little tweaking you will have a wonderful set. 

I still like some of the MPC era, I like the Hycubes that were built back then. A little light but weight is easy to install and even I have had them from the 70's the plastics truck sides and coupler have never failed. Great graphics, close to scale make for great looking car. 

Dave

"I am not an electronics expert but the buz is created by the rotating drum inside the e-unit."

The buzz is the solenoid; it os normal. Some are louder than others. As others suggested, if the sound is that annoying to you (it certainly can be), replace it with a Dallee or Williams plain reversing unit. They come with instructions. Not hard. They are silent.

The Pullmor AC motors, now, they make noise on their own, too. While running.

If I recall, some weight will do the Preamble some good. (I'm assuming wheel slip. Crawling out of the hole with near any single open frame motor can be tough.)

Bottom line is; if you like it, accept it for what it is and have some fun.  Heck, add a second motor Wire 2 motors in series to get a better slow speed  

The buzz can be a few things, but the diode will likely help reduce it to a mild rattle if not silence it fully. Your taking the off/on osolation of the constantly changing AC +&- waves (60 per sec/60hz) away and giving the magnetic coil a smoothed (by a cap) DC current instead. Do it wrong and worst case you might have a no go or something like whistles blowing for "no reason"; but smoke would take a real flub, diodes are pretty tough . (Caps can pop loudly/violently if you get them in wrong. Like a small firecracker....or a ¼ stick on big ones.... Kinda fun really )

I kinda like the MPC era. Colorful and a wide variety for the budget hobbyist. My first train purchases in the early 2000s were MPC because they were affordable. I only own two mpc engines now but they run strong. I love my PC GG1. It makes alot of noise but runs like a champ.