SLQ32 posted:Norton posted:SLQ32 posted:Thank you Dave. Good possibility. But it not just the sound it’s a stutter as well. And only in forward. reverse is perfect.
Thank you for your assistance
This could very well be cause of both the sound and speed variations. If so its an easy fix if you have the correct size allen wrench.
Pete
Thanks yeah this not a problem. I just don’t want to void the warranty if i remove the shell.
Who would know? Its three screws.
Pete
I am glad to assist but my hat's off to Alex once again. I figured that he would probably be able to diagnose the problem with great accuracy since he knows his way around these locomotives like I know movies and movie lines(if I've seen them).
I will find out tomorrow if mine has the same issues it seems that all of these Hudson's will most likely have whether they are the custom runs or the catalogued ones. I know that I am not the best under the hood worker when it comes to just about everything unless I've done the work a few times. Just don't give me a sodering iron as something will definitely be melting that is not supposed to.
That reminds me, I will have to make sure I have some Allen wrenches on hand.
I am very interested in acquiring the Hudson - probably the 5413 or 5452 when they show up; I am always amazed at how this forum is relentless in pursuing solutions; got a huuuge amount of help from the forum when I had to repair my Big Boy; hopefully, someone will take the plunge and go ahead with Alex's and Norton's suggestions.
Hello everyone,
Once i receive mine i will do a "look at the inside detailed video of it " this way we can all see how things look under the boiler and tender shell.
Thanks for the kind words Dave !
Alex
No problem Alex. Can't wait to see what it looks like inside when you open yours up as that will definitely be my guide on "follow what Alex is saying and you shouldn't need to call him for repairs because you messed up by not following"
SLQ32, the second video, when you stop the locomotive on the rollers at the end of the video, it looks like the front driver on the Fireman’s side is drooped forward really ugly!....that is atrocious......oh my!......Pat
SLQ32 posted:
After seeing this i noticed the drivers are not quartered correctly at 90 degrees. I believe this is the cause of the wobble. I did lube all joints in the running gear.
Time to return to Lionel.
That's what mine does on the roller stands. It does not make the noise yours is making.
harmonyards posted:SLQ32, the second video, when you stop the locomotive on the rollers at the end of the video, it looks like the front driver on the Fireman’s side is drooped forward really ugly!....that is atrocious......oh my!......Pat
I will look at it again i did not notice this at first.
SLQ32 posted:harmonyards posted:SLQ32, the second video, when you stop the locomotive on the rollers at the end of the video, it looks like the front driver on the Fireman’s side is drooped forward really ugly!....that is atrocious......oh my!......Pat
I will look at it again i did not notice this at first.
It might have just been me, but it looked like the front axle set was out of quarter......I could have been mistaken, ....**** that won’t be the first time I was wrong.......Pat
FEET, I did not notice the wobble on the track just on the rollers. I looked at the quartering and it is not 90 degrees. I don’t know if the main drivers are pressed on the axle or held in place with a screw. They should be able to be repositioned on the spleen of the axle. (if the axle has one). 
A screw would be obvious. The TMCC drivers were held on with a screw and the axles keyed so they could not be out of quarter. These are pressed on.
Pete
SLQ32, that engine definitely needs to go back to Lionel. There’s no way anyone could offer possible solutions without disassembling the engine and we all know that would void the warranty. What a shame.
romiller49 posted:SLQ32, that engine definitely needs to go back to Lionel. There’s no way anyone could offer possible solutions without disassembling the engine and we all know that would void the warranty. What a shame.
Yeah i agree. If it was out of warranty or bought used i would’ve had it opened up already.
well i filled out the form at Lionel
Not hopeful at all. Of 5 times i attempted to e-mail them in the past or fill out any form on their site they have not once responded.
I did get a rep on the phone once through sales (of course they want to make money)
Lionel stopped answering emails when Mike Reagan left.
You may have to call and sit on hold for an hour and wait/hope someone answers. Or there will be a message telling you to call back during normal buisness hours because they went home early.
Good luck!
SLQ32, I’m so very sorry that you got to send it back.....that sucks period!...I hope they get it straight...I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot and all was good, you’d be singing praises, not anguish........Pat
OK, I am a little dense here on quartering; I took a look at my H10 (2 8 0) and focused on the rearmost axle; on the left side, the pin is at 12 oclock, on the right side, the pin is at 3 oclock - so 1/4 ahead of the left; identical to the pins on the other 3 axles.
So, SLQ32, you have looked at both sides of an axle and saw that they are not in the above configuration??
I would be interested to see what John Rowland's configuration is. What I am driving at is that one can take the loco out of the box and by merely looking at the drive wheels know if that engine will need to go to Lionel for repair.
harmonyards posted:SLQ32, I’m so very sorry that you got to send it back.....that sucks period!...I hope they get it straight...I’m sure if the shoe was on the other foot and all was good, you’d be singing praises, not anguish........Pat
yeah exactly. How a $1,300 product can pas QC like this boggles the mind.
RickM46 posted:OK, I am a little dense here on quartering; I took a look at my H10 (2 8 0) and focused on the rearmost axle; on the left side, the pin is at 12 oclock, on the right side, the pin is at 3 oclock - so 1/4 ahead of the left; identical to the pins on the other 3 axles.
So, SLQ32, you have looked at both sides of an axle and saw that they are not in the above configuration??
I would be interested to see what John Rowland's configuration is.
Exactly. The right driver should be 90 degrees out from the left. so if the right is at 12 o’clock the left should be at 3 o’clock (or 9 o’clock) al long as it is a 90 I need to measure mine. Visually they don’t look close to 90 looks like 12 and 2 o’clock 
Thanks SLQ, if quartering is the problem, then one will know right away by looking at the pins.
Since John has a good one, he could verify the above.
Thanks SLQ32 - progress. Now, maybe, back to Alex's suggestion; neat photo's!!
I don't know that the rocking is an issue persay. If you look closely at the wheels. They tend to move in an orbital motion/ back and forth based on the drive rod position because of the excessive play that Lionel has had in the axle bushings for the last several years. TMCC and early Legacy locos have much tighter tolerances and minimal play.
This motion isn't noticeable when the loco is pulling a load on track.
If you turn the loco upside down and grab a pair of drivers between two fingers and twist you will feel this play.
I won't challenge Alex's advice, he's certainly more knowledgeable than me, but that forward chatter sure sounds like gear noise.
Lateral play in both the axle shaft and the motor worm allow the gears to move to one end of the contact surface or the other depending on the direction. In your case, possibly the forward direction has the mating surfaces of the gears going too far to one edge.
I'm curious if these hudsons have the intermediate gear on a shaft in the gearbox above the center driver. I've found this intermediate gear and shaft to be a weak link in the newer Lionel gearboxes. while this gearbox is key to ultra slow speed performance. It adds 2 more gears to the gearbox, and is less reliable than the typical worm and axle gear setup.
I've had one of these intermediate gears be faulty out of the box, and a few years after warranty repair the shaft bushing showed significant wear so I parted with the loco.
This intermediate shaft can usually be seen behind the "motor driven" driver between the spokes, although it may be hard to see through boxpok wheels.
This intermediate gear shaft can be seen in this legacy mohawk video ( not mine) starting at the :22 mark just behind the 3rd set of drivers. : https://youtu.be/0y60BIICyng
SLQ32 and friends,
Here are four pictures of the quartering of the center driver on my Lionel 1931810 New York Central Hudson #5415 from Mr. Muffin's Trains. It appears to match the quartering shown in the above illustrations.
The engine does not wobble, though at age 69, I am starting to show an irregular limp as my knees give me fits. My waiting times when calling Lionel Customer Service have been short lately. Put Lionel on speaker phone so you can do another task while you wait for them to answer. I always have a cup of coffee and a cookie at my desk. "Me like cookies."
Sincerely, John Rowlen
SLQ32 posted:FEET, I did not notice the wobble on the track just on the rollers. I looked at the quartering and it is not 90 degrees. I don’t know if the main drivers are pressed on the axle or held in place with a screw. They should be able to be repositioned on the spleen of the axle. (if the axle has one).
Mine does not wobble on the track, just the rollers and it wobbles like the devil. Looks like I will have to call Lionel and send mine back too.
FEET, Is there any chance that your rollers have been bent or damaged over time and use? You say the engine runs fine on the track. I would rely on the track performance more than the rollers. If you oiled the engine when it arrived, give it a little run-time to work any gear issues out.
Dean's advice has always been to run the new engines to see if issues disappear with four hours of use. Lionel use to say that when my engines needed service, they test ran them for four hours. Whether I believe the exact amount of time, running the engine may eliminate the issues or bring new problems to your attention. Good luck with your new engine.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Ricko I agree with your assessment. I think the same. I have seen the same with MTH diesels. Repositioning the worm on the motor shaft is what is needed. I have heard people shim the mount to raise the motor itself with the same affect.
John Rowlen posted:FEET, Is there any chance that your rollers have been bent or damaged over time and use? You say the engine runs fine on the track. I would rely on the track performance more than the rollers. If you oiled the engine when it arrived, give it a little run-time to work any gear issues out.
Dean's advice has always been to run the new engines to see if issues disappear with four hours of use. Lionel use to say that when my engines needed service, they test ran them for four hours. Whether I believe the exact amount of time, running the engine may eliminate the issues or bring new problems to your attention. Good luck with your new engine.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I checked this on mine and the rollers (ball bearings) are perfect.
If there is a mechanical problem or miss alignment I feel “running it in” will cause additional damage to bushings ect.
Times like this i miss my father. he was a master machinist, tool and dye maker. These were child’s play for him.
John Rowlen posted:FEET, Is there any chance that your rollers have been bent or damaged over time and use? You say the engine runs fine on the track. I would rely on the track performance more than the rollers. If you oiled the engine when it arrived, give it a little run-time to work any gear issues out.
Dean's advice has always been to run the new engines to see if issues disappear with four hours of use. Lionel use to say that when my engines needed service, they test ran them for four hours. Whether I believe the exact amount of time, running the engine may eliminate the issues or bring new problems to your attention. Good luck with your new engine.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
My rollers are brand new, first time I used them. I don't have a layout yet, still working on building one. Looking at these pictures that have been posted and looking at my drivers I believe they are not quartered properly.
SLQ32, I agree about missing our fathers. My dad got me interested in trains as we built several layouts as I grew up. The Christmas season is filled with memories of new Lionel accessories under the Christmas tree and trips to the Trading Post in Cleveland to develop the list for Santa.
Have a good weekend.
Sincerely, John Rowlen.
Not to hijack, but my 5416, a special run from Pat's Trains, shudders a bit starting out from a standstill, but then pretty much goes away. If I put my hand on top of it, you can feel it vibrating a bit. Does not do it in reverse. Might try to run it in a bit, but it is strange that it only does it going forward.
Thank you Larry, I was curious about how other engines were performing. Seems to be a trend with these engines.
One last thought: I have not opened my Hudson #5415 engine, but did open my Santa Fe Northern #3759 when the DOG BONE linkage came out of the U-joint cups and the engine would not go forward. It would run smoothly in reverse, but not forward.
Other owners of the ATSF Northern engine put a packing on either end of the Dog Bone to keep it centered in the U-joint cups. Perhaps the clicking is the Dog Bone pins clicking inside the U-joint cup as it rounds the pins and eventually fails to turn. The clicking pins would interrupt the smooth rotation of the drive train, causing the stuttering. In reverse, the dog Bone is pushed back into the U-joint cup and runs smoothly.
I contacted Lionel about the previous Santa Fe Northern, to tell them about the "Dog Bone" linkage being too short to fit properly between the U-joint cups. I don't believe the newest Santa Fe Northern engines have arrived yet. Only some previous Northern engines had this problem.
The "Dog Bone" linkage may be the problem. If it is, it will wear until the pins round and no longer mate with the U-joint cup, ending forward movement.
I am not a technician. This is just one of my experiences.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
I understand John. Sounds reasonable. I was not aware these had a Dog bone. Now that you mentioned it i remember having an HO Athearn blue box CSX that had this problem. Took me forever to find the growl. going back 1997 maybe.
Its all coming back to me now LOL
I have a small Train Show here tomorrow (today) i will ask around as well.
Thank you so much for your time and everyones thoughts on this. It’s very much appreciated.
RickO posted:Watch Mr. Muffins video closely, especially when the loco goes forward.
Vibration starts at 1:08 and appears worse at 1:20. Its seems to vibrate, then smooth out, vibrate then smooth out like one side of the gear mesh is worse:
By watching the ornamental bell on top of the boiler, the shudder is evident every time the crank pin on the left-side main driver reaches the 5:00 position.
I have a Legacy Atlantic 6-11225 that has a similar issue; it's most evident at certain slow-to-medium speed steps. When it happens, the drawbar chatters like a telegraph key. (Search the Forum for another thread about Legacy J3a shudder to see what I mean.) In my case the flywheel is on tight; I'm convinced that it's a gear mesh issue, made more noticeable by aggressive and ill-timed intervention by the speed control algorithm.
In the case of my Atlantic, the worm gear is pressed on the motor shaft. The gearing is "tight" (30:1) and self-locking, so the natural momentum of the moving train can't contribute to smooth operation. Adjusting the mesh would be tough. The motor is mounted at an angle, so adding a shim would change both the engagement depth AND the fore-aft position of the worm. I never tried because a thick sandwich of circuit boards and wiring limits access to the motor and gearbox.
At the Hudson's price point, hopefully the worm gear is on it's own shaft, and connected to the motor by a U-joint. Most likely the gearbox is cast into the chassis. Ball thrust bearings should have been used to limit fore-and-aft movement of the worm. But I don't really know how it's made; I couldn't find an exploded parts photo on Lionel Support. I know there's at least one major change from the 6-38041 design: On that loco, the driving wheels were removable, and affixed to the ends of the axles by small Phillips screws. Photos on this thread show the ends of the axles, so I know the wheels on this current edition cannot be removed in this fashion.
I'm sorry for your issues gentlemen, I empathize greatly. Following this topic in hopes of learning more!
John Rowlen posted:One last thought: I have not opened my Hudson #5415 engine, but did open my Santa Fe Northern #3759 when the DOG BONE linkage came out of the U-joint cups and the engine would not go forward. It would run smoothly in reverse, but not forward.
Other owners of the ATSF Northern engine put a packing on either end of the Dog Bone to keep it centered in the U-joint cups. Perhaps the clicking is the Dog Bone pins clicking inside the U-joint cup as it rounds the pins and eventually fails to turn. The clicking pins would interrupt the smooth rotation of the drive train, causing the stuttering. In reverse, the dog Bone is pushed back into the U-joint cup and runs smoothly.
I contacted Lionel about the previous Santa Fe Northern, to tell them about the "Dog Bone" linkage being too short to fit properly between the U-joint cups. I don't believe the newest Santa Fe Northern engines have arrived yet. Only some previous Northern engines had this problem.
The "Dog Bone" linkage may be the problem. If it is, it will wear until the pins round and no longer mate with the U-joint cup, ending forward movement.
I am not a technician. This is just one of my experiences.
Sincerely, John Rowlen
Dog bones are a buck apiece. Rather than stuff the ends just loosen the allen screw that holds the flywheel to the motor and move it closer to the gearbox or order a longer dogbone. The TMCC Hudsons use dogbone drives and don't have this issue as do most MTH engines.
You guys are making mountains out of molehills.
Pete
Pete I agree that replacing the dogbone, or even making one from scratch is no big deal. But I've seen this shuddering and wobble in other products, including some that don't have a dogbone between the motor and the worm shaft. I think it's a gear mesh issue being amplified by the speed control.
In this case folks are saying their locos run smoother in reverse. If there's too much thrust play in the gearbox and the dogbone shaft is too long, when running in the forward direction, the worm shaft could slide rearward from the reaction torque and place a thrust load on the motor shaft. In that case, a shorter dogbone would be part of the solution. I haven't seen a parts diagram or even a photo with the shell off, so I'm just guessing.
The wobbling or rocking side to side could be a bent axle, wheels not pressed on straight or not punched on center, etc. I still have two MPC-era New York Central Hudsons that wobble down the track. I'm all about nostalgia, but not like this :-)
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
