MTH • 2 Rail Scale Wheels, have no traction tires. Why?

Mainly because 2-Rail SCALE modelers do NOT have ridiculously sharp curves nor 5% grades.

A lot of hobbyists would PREFER their locos without traction tires. A big heavy loco should have ample draw-bar pull without traction tires, like real locomotives. Traction tires reduce electrical pickup from the rails and become a maintenance issue down the road.

That's a good thing for a couple of reasons:

1. If the load is too heavy for the locomotive, it slips rather than overloading the electronics so you have to put on more power.
2. No non-conductive residue on the rails from traction tires.
3. Based on my experience running scale wheels on the club layout, the modern scale-wheeled rolling stock seems to roll more freely than their hi-rail counterparts, so you don't really lose a lot of ground with respect to cars you can pull with a single locomotive. That said, though, you should really be pulling trains of realistic length with a single locomotive. I guess I should take a video illustrating the point.

All the above!

If you lash-up (for lack of a better term!) or MU several MTH scale wheeled diesels together, you'd be amazed at what they can pull. Three or four together should handle most anything thrown at them. I stopped buying dummy locos because of this. It's better to have all units running.

In G scale, a lot of users are wrecking their gears on certain brands because they're plastic and being overloaded. Two manufacturers stopped using traction tires to prevent this.

Middle of this video is a 5 engine all power MU 2 rail..i swear if i held them back they would rip the track out. Plenty of pulling power.

I think all the points have been covered.   All that said, as 2-rail hobbyiest, I would never buy a loco with traction tires.     and to support this, I have an HO modeler friend who has bought at least 4 BLI steamers recently that came with traction tires.    BLI will sell you replacement wheelsets for these and he did that immediately.   

The only traction tires I have experience with are on an older Lionel that my grandson plays with.    As soon as he tries to move the loco without power, the tires come off.    And sometimes they just come off while rnning.    In both cases, grandpa has to take the darn thing apart and fix it.    It is now a shelf queen.

willygee posted:

Middle of this video is a 5 engine all power MU 2 rail..i swear if i held them back they would rip the track out. Plenty of pulling power.

I see your five and raise you one. OK. They're just idling in a "beauty shot" but they were MU'd.

However, I did MU three scale-wheeled C40-8W's together to pull a 20-car mix of scale and hi-rail PS4427 hoppers (I created some transition cars in the hi-rail sets) on the club layout through 48" radius curves (and one 36" curve) without any problems. Keep in mind that Atlas PS4427 cars are over one pound each and the hi-rail cars don't roll as well. No slippage on 1.5% uphill grade with a 48" radius curve. The YouTube video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4l5fsSSGnA

traction tires, on 2 rail locomotives? you're kidding right?

Another reason that traction tires are not considered in 2 rail is that most diesels built for 2 rail have equalized or sprung trucks and steamers have sprung drivers.     The wheels easily adjust to track irregularities and all wheels stay firmly on the track, maintaining the best possilble traction for the loco.

AGHRMatt posted:

willygee posted:

Middle of this video is a 5 engine all power MU 2 rail..i swear if i held them back they would rip the track out. Plenty of pulling power.

 

I see your five and raise you one. OK. They're just idling in a "beauty shot" but they were MU'd.

 

However, I did MU three scale-wheeled C40-8W's together to pull a 20-car mix of scale and hi-rail PS4427 hoppers (I created some transition cars in the hi-rail sets) on the club layout through 48" radius curves (and one 36" curve) without any problems. Keep in mind that Atlas PS4427 cars are over one pound each and the hi-rail cars don't roll as well. No slippage on 1.5% uphill grade with a 48" radius curve. The YouTube video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4l5fsSSGnA

20???? is that all you pulled? what's a matter you didn't want to get the rest of the cars out of their boxes???

All the Lionel American Flyer and American Models 2 rail S gauge engines have traction tires. The SHS engines (now owned by MTH) do not. It seems like a product design and marketing decision by a manufacturer, not something inherent to 2 rail. The MTH box end label posted above states metal wheels and does not list traction tires as a feature.

AmFlyer posted:

 The MTH box end label posted above states metal wheels and does not list traction tires as a feature.

That is because it is a "2-Rail SCALE WHEELS" model. Obviously the folks at MTH were smart enough to know that the 2-Rail SCALE crowd does NOT care for those stupid traction tires.

I ordered all steel wheels for my USA trains diesels. I discarded all the wheel sets with the tires on them. I was hoping that would help the gears last longer. I will now try the Delrin replacement gears from NWSL in them. I sent them a sample of the idler gear in hopes they could make me Delrin versions of those as well. I am happy with the pulling power of the all steel wheels against the rails. It does help determine how many engines to use on my grades. I have a feeling that many here running three rail can be overloading their engines with too heavy of trains per engine.

Hot Water posted:

AmFlyer posted:

 The MTH box end label posted above states metal wheels and does not list traction tires as a feature.

That is because it is a "2-Rail SCALE WHEELS" model. Obviously the folks at MTH were smart enough to know that the 2-Rail SCALE crowd does NOT care to those stupid traction tires.

Even on my 3 rail Premier engines i have substituted the traction wheels with solids.

AmFlyer posted:

All the Lionel American Flyer and American Models 2 rail S gauge engines have traction tires. The SHS engines (now owned by MTH) do not. It seems like a product design and marketing decision by a manufacturer, not something inherent to 2 rail. The MTH box end label posted above states metal wheels and does not list traction tires as a feature.

The scale wheel versions of Lionel-Flyer, American Models and former S helper Service locomotives do not have traction tires...

Rusty

My point was there is nothing about 2 rail that precludes traction tires. For wheels to be accurate scale they cannot have traction tires and that is what MTH delivered.

Engineer-Joe posted:

...

20???? is that all you pulled? what's a matter you didn't want to get the rest of the cars out of their boxes???

OK. You got me. I have a bunch more in CNW and other liveries, but the train was already 24 feet long and the club frowns on trains longer than about 15 feet. Besides, there's the risk of string-lining on the curved trestle (I had a nasty incident several years ago with a 40-car hopper train) and Atlas hoppers are too expensive to risk that. When I get a home outdoor layout built with 72" radius maybe I'll go for it.

Hi fellow members, a lot of great information / Thanks

I have been trying for years, where does MTH and Lionel purchased these traction tires.  We call them traction tires but at a automotive parts store they have bins of small rubber parts but it is a matter of luck to find something that will work. (Never)

Question:  We call them traction tires but are they a part sold by aircraft manufactures, piano makers. plumbers Etc.  I find it hard to believe that only MTH and Lionel have these made just for model trains.  

Below is my frustration with traction tires.......

Gary

Wow Matt, I didn't mean to stir up bad memories!

I always was impressed with that curved trestle. I remember asking someone years ago to get a pic of a Bigboy ( or similar) on it.

AGHRMatt posted:

willygee posted:

Middle of this video is a 5 engine all power MU 2 rail..i swear if i held them back they would rip the track out. Plenty of pulling power.

I see your five and raise you one. OK. They're just idling in a "beauty shot" but they were MU'd.

However, I did MU three scale-wheeled C40-8W's together to pull a 20-car mix of scale and hi-rail PS4427 hoppers (I created some transition cars in the hi-rail sets) on the club layout through 48" radius curves (and one 36" curve) without any problems. Keep in mind that Atlas PS4427 cars are over one pound each and the hi-rail cars don't roll as well. No slippage on 1.5% uphill grade with a 48" radius curve. The YouTube video is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4l5fsSSGnA

Very nice collection of heritage units...drool drool

Engineer-Joe posted:

Wow Matt, I didn't mean to stir up bad memories!

I always was impressed with that curved trestle. I remember asking someone years ago to get a pic of a Bigboy ( or similar) on it.

I'll bring it down Saturday and take a shot of the Big Boy on the Trestle. The video I shot only had close-ups showing it had made it through a 36" radius hidden curve.

PRR Man posted:

traction tires, on 2 rail locomotives? you're kidding right?

 

Must admit, that was pretty much my reaction, too.

If HO & N Scales don't use traction tyres (& haven't for many, many years) then why would much heavier O Scale locos??

Speaking as someone outside of the USA, I have to wonder; just how insular IS the 3-rail community..??!!??

SundayShunter posted:

PRR Man posted:

traction tires, on 2 rail locomotives? you're kidding right?

 

Must admit, that was pretty much my reaction, too.

If HO & N Scales don't use traction tyres (& haven't for many, many years) then why would much heavier O Scale locos??

Speaking as someone outside of the USA, I have to wonder; just how insular IS the 3-rail community..??!!??

 

Actually, in ye olden days, AHM/Rivarrossi used traction tires on just about everything they produced in HO.  So did Mantua/Tyco.

Rusty

willygee posted:

Even on my 3 rail Premier engines i have substituted the traction wheels with solids.

That is a good idea.

Dave

What's easier and cheaper right now? Adding rubber bands to the wheels or adding weight to something that has to ship around the world?

Rusty Traque posted:

SundayShunter posted:

PRR Man posted:

traction tires, on 2 rail locomotives? you're kidding right?

 

Must admit, that was pretty much my reaction, too.

If HO & N Scales don't use traction tyres (& haven't for many, many years) then why would much heavier O Scale locos??

Speaking as someone outside of the USA, I have to wonder; just how insular IS the 3-rail community..??!!??

 

Actually, in ye olden days, AHM/Rivarrossi used traction tires on just about everything they produced in HO.  So did Mantua/Tyco.

Rusty

True. I have a Mantua HO 0-6-0 that had a traction tire. I was running it a few months ago and the tire caught something and ripped. Now it won't move at all. It just sits there and does a burn out. The locomotive is now totally useless. 

SundayShunter posted:

PRR Man posted:

traction tires, on 2 rail locomotives? you're kidding right?

 

Must admit, that was pretty much my reaction, too.

If HO & N Scales don't use traction tyres (& haven't for many, many years) then why would much heavier O Scale locos??

Speaking as someone outside of the USA, I have to wonder; just how insular IS the 3-rail community..??!!??

 

Begs an equally interesting question, how did the European model railroad community "avoid" a significant proliferation of  non-finescale activities?

How insular is the 3-rail community? It was virtually its own independent ecosystem for multiple decades until the introduction of scale-sized models in the late 20th century started muddying up the distinction.

---PCJ

Gentlemen,

   I run 99% of all my O Gauge Engines with no traction tires, on FasTrack!

PCRR/Dave

Dave, A good friend of mine who is a 3 Railer replaces all the wheels of his diesels that have traction tires with regular wheels that do not have the traction tires. You may be in the minority but you are not alone! 

Gary .... I have been running without traction tires for over five years now, couldn't be happier.  I have been buying nothing but 2/3 rail diesels, those that I can get in 2 rail are preferred. I use the three rail wheels without tires on my 2/3 rail engines. On three axle trucks I use the two rail wheels on the center axle (they are the same diameter as the 3 rail wheels). I have a good supply of metal three rail wheels. I do have large curves. Google.....3 rail O scale train 100 feet long Blissfield Mich..... none of the locomotives have traction tires, 2% grade.    traction tires are nothing but vinyl or rubber tube cut to width, find the right tube and cut your own. Don't forget MTH sells conversion 2/3 wheel sets for their diesels.

Clem 

No tires here and all diecast cars

willygee posted:

Even on my 3 rail Premier engines i have substituted the traction wheels with solids.

Willy how did you do this, I might wish to do the same.  On Steam??

I really, really hope Lionel and MTH read this thread.  Broadway Limited (BLI) and MTH's HO-scale steam locos are being sold with extra axles.  The chassis is designed for an easy swap.  That's what I would like to see them do in 3-rail O.  Then EVERYONE would be happy!

UK & EU HO/OO models also used to have traction tyres, but they also had inferior 'pancake' motors, but certainly not in the last 20 years or so, at least!

We avoided 3-rail O gauge because manufacturers like Hornby stopped making it in the 1950s/60s as smaller scales became popular and were also updated to 2-rail. O scale nearly died out in the UK in the '50s, but the Gauge O Guild was formed to promote it, but with the emphasis very much on scale 2-rail models.

Sure, UK-outline 3-rail O is still available, but from specialist manufacturers, & it is very much a 'Collectors' minority thing. No manufacturer of 2-rail models - steam or diesel - would dare fit traction tyres!! They'd be laughed out of business!!!!

Ted Sowirka posted:

willygee posted:

Even on my 3 rail Premier engines i have substituted the traction wheels with solids.

Willy how did you do this, I might wish to do the same.  On Steam??

I really, really hope Lionel and MTH read this thread.  Broadway Limited (BLI) and MTH's HO-scale steam locos are being sold with extra axles.  The chassis is designed for an easy swap.  That's what I would like to see them do in 3-rail O.  Then EVERYONE would be happy!

See link:   http://mthtrains.com/proto-scale-32     any premier diesel 2006 and up have the 3/2 power trucks with drop in axles. I dunno about steam

SundayShunter posted:

UK & EU HO/OO models also used to have traction tyres, but they also had inferior 'pancake' motors, but certainly not in the last 20 years or so, at least!

We avoided 3-rail O gauge because manufacturers lke Hornby stopped making it in the 1950s/60s as smaller scales became popular and were also updated to 2-rail. O scale nearly died out in the UK in the '50s, but the Gauge O Guild was formed to promote it, but with the emphasis very much on scale 2-rail models.

Sure, UK-outline 3-rail O is still available, but from specialist manufacturers, & it is very much a 'Collectors' minority thing. No manufacturer of 2-rail models - steam or diesel - would dare fit traction tyres!! They'd be laughed out of business!!!!

Hornby, as far as I know, made primarily tinplate (sheet-metal) trains like Lionel pre-war. Has there been any speculation that they might have hung on longer had they transitioned to more realistic-looking (but not finescale) UK equivalents to Lionel postwar after WWII?

---PCJ

I don't know about speculation; what happened, happened, & a clue as to why is the words "Pre War".

Without going into a history lesson too much, WW2 hit Britain hard in many ways, & the 1950s for us were still a time of austerity & shortage. There wasn't the availability of materials for large models, or the money to buy them,or even large houses to fit them in... smaller scales were the way to go.

you would get my vote for no traction tires on the 2 and 3 rail locos too.....

Wake up and smell the coffee gang. All the classic Lionel stuff back in the 50's did NOT have traction tires. Shouldn't that tell you something. I wouldn't buy anything that was equipped with those pieces of trash.

Simon

I really don't understand all the fuss with traction tires. Granted, I only run modern stuff and don't have the experience with the classics like some of you. That said, there are traction tires on every one of my 100+ engines. I've never replaced one in the 20 years I've been running some of these units and never once had an issue.