MTH EMD GP30 issue with Z4000

That is weird.  How are you trying to operate it with the Z-4000?  Raise voltage to about 10V and let it start up than press the direction button with V less that 10V and it should come out of reset and go into fwd.  At that point voltage can be raised and direction changes above 10V can occur.  G

GGG, yes, that is precisely what I was trying. After at least half a dozen failed attempts I tried it on the ZW. It immediately worked. So I powered it down and tried it again on the Z4000 with the same failed result. I haven't run this engine in a few years but prior to trying it I pulled the original MTH battery and installed a BCR as I've done on all of my engines. This is the first issue I've noticed.

BTW, when I try to poer it up and down on the Z4000 it tries to program itself. You know, the various bells and clanks you get when going through the different modes. That did not happen on the LW.

That is weird. I had a balky MTH Premier PS-1 EMD Reading GP30 but installing a BCR fixed it and probably saved it. A Z4000 was designed for PS-1. It even has programming features.

This is out of left field - and I mean well by suggesting it - but does the (+) wire go to the center rail and the COMMON to the outer rail? If those wires are reversed, that could cause problem(s).

To charge a BCR, apply 10 volts for 1 minute. Then turn the current off and on again. That should put the engine in Forward.

Maybe the track or the locomotive contact rollers and wheels need cleaning.

Good luck.

ReadingFan,

Thanks for your reply. The conditions you suggested are not the culprit. My layout is nearly 20 years old and has been operating MTH, Lionel, Williams and Weaver engines without a problem. This is a new condition that has me scratching my head. Just to be sure I wasn't overly tired last night, I tested this engine again. First, on the ZW track. Let it power up and sit idling and the Protosounds chatter started. Took the throttle to zero and then power back up and she began to travel forward. Throttled down, neutral, then back up and she reversed direction. Totally normal operation.

Powered the engine down completely and switched track to the Z4000 loop. Brought the engine up to 8 volts and let her idle. No chatter. Throttled down and up...boom, got the programming chime but no movement. Tried again with the same result. I am perplexed and frustrated.

Maybe your Z-4000 calibration is off and the voltage is too high?  Also, is this QSI or MTH version?  QSI had units that you could select the type of transformer.  G

So I just tried it keeping the throttle at a minimum and under 8 volts. The chatter comes up but still no luck in getting the engine to travel. But you did get me thinking and I may have a problem with my Z4000 because it does get a loud hum from time to time which a friend told me was likely a loose plate. I can't do anything about that so perhaps later this week I'll swap another ZW I have back in to the equation and see if that solves my issue. That would s=certainly then isolate the problem to my transformer. I've had ZWs refurbished, but never an MTH Z. Is it possible?

Yes.  If a major problem best to go back to MTH.  G

GGG,

Thanks for your help and guidance. I will post my results.

How old is this Z-4000?  The very first ones were different.  They were based on a design assumption that was not always present.  What is the outputs stated on the info plate on back, 180VA or 165VA?

Ron

PRRronbh,

The Z is probably one of the originals...I purchased it in Sept. 1995 and its marked 165 VA.

Yes it is an old one.  Another question(s), What track system are you using and are you using any kind of "lighted" lockon to power the track?

Ron

Ron,

My entire layout features GarGraves track and Ross Custom Switches. All of my power connections to the track are soldered -- no lockons of any type.

OK, I have an experiment to try.  Using the Z-4000 try using the GP-30 BUT add a lighted car, caboose and/or passenger, which uses incandescence not LEDs lights.  See if this results in success.

Ron

Ron, BRILLIANT!

Per your suggestion I put a lighted caboose behind the diesel and it worked like a charm. So it needs the extra current draw down for some reason? Just would like to understand the rationale here. 

-Gary

This proves your Z4000 was one of the very earliest built with rather false design assumption.  Now back in the day (about fifteen years ago) the MTH would fix this, actually replace with a newer 180VA model.

I should have asked this earlier but what the heck, when you power up the Z4000 with handles still all the way down/off is there any voltage reading?

Ron

Yes, a steady 1.7v. I just assumed that was a calibration issue which I couldn't do anything about.

And Ron, I misspoke earlier. I was checking my inventory and believe I first bought the Z-4000 in May of '99 or maybe 2000. I'm trying to find my records...but I know I ordered it as soon as it was available.

Being that it is a 165VA and exhibits the issue you have, it is an early one.  As I stated back when MTH would "fix" these.  Not sure what their policy is now.  But I think you should call them and see.  Nothing ventured ... .

These early ones would not zero.  But the one I had my experience with only registered about .5 volts as I recall from so many years ago.

Ron

Gary,

There is one other option. Given that this is an early Z4K, the warrantee is way past expired. So you are pretty much free to do as you wish. I recall an article in OGR about 10 years ago by Jim Barrett in which he addressed the same issue. He opened the case and made some adjustment to the pot and the main gear on the handle, IIRC. If you are not squeamish about opening the case, you might try contacting him offline for some helpful guidance, or go searching for his Back Shop article. Otherwise, you either live with a 18v bulb attached across the terminals, or send it back to MTH.

Chris

LVHR

BTW, I have a first generation Z4K, and it has the same problem. I'm using the bulb trick for now. One of these days I will get around to opening it up.

I think the Z-4000 was introduced in 1998. 

I think the cause of the problem is the voltage not going down to zero when hitting the direction button. The resistance of the bulb lowered the voltage to make things work.

There must be a simple fix for the problem.

I have a Z-4000 from 98 and it runs strong. 

These are all great suggestions and I appreciate the information and guidance. I have a complete collection of OGR for the past 20 years so I will look for the article as LVHR suggested. I am not the squeamish type and happy to experiment.

I must confess... I was hot and heavy into my layout and trains for a good decade while my children grew, but put aside my operation for another decade or more as other interests pulled me away. I continued my memberships, but curtailed most of my reading and stopped attending shows and TCA. I'm just now picking it all back up again; tuning up my layout and ready to plunge headlong into completing my build-out. Missing this major issue with the Z is a real wake-up call. Thanks for all your help.

Good catch on this.  I don't think the fix is adjusting pots.  Unless they are way off.  The fix is modifying the circuit board with some additional resistors.

The risk in shipping this around will out weigh getting it modified.  I would simply add a switch and bulb you can turn on when running PS-1 engines.  Unless you have an MTH tech in your area that can do the mod.   G

G, Yes, I think you may be right but I couldn't sleep thinking about how to make a minor modification with a light to fix the operational issue. However, that doesn't change the issue with the Z4000 itself and the other loud hum problem so I am going to start by calling MTH, and if necessary, take the transformer to a tech for help. Thanks again for your concern and help.