MTH Hi-Rail Wheels vs. Scale Wheels Considerations...

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

As I've mentioned here recently, my next layout will be built using MTH Scaletrax.  And with the new MTH Catalog 2016 V2 catalog pre-orders due in a few weeks, I'm strongly considering a few Premier diesel locomotives with scale-wheels.  In fact, if my dealer ordered any extra Norfolk Southern SD60E's with scale-wheels, I might be inclined to swap by pre-order of hi-rail wheeled locomotives for the scale-wheel versions.

From what I've read here in prior years, it seems the scale-wheeled diesel locomotives have fixed pilots... which shouldn't be a problem since the curves on my new layout are mostly O-72, O-80 or even greater.

Are there any other issues/considerations I should be aware of, before placing pre-orders for MTH diesel locomotives featuring scale-wheels?  These seem to be difficult-to-find products after delivery, if one doesn't pre-order them.

Thanks, in advance, for any insights from folks who already own MTH locomotives with scale-wheels.

David

Hi David, you'll need to body mount couplers to your locomotives.  Also, MTH offers hi-rail wheel sets if you later decide scale wheels isn't for you.  I have a pair of the SD60E's on pre-order and can't wait to get them! 

I would like to use ScaleTrax but MTH offers little to nothing in 2-rail. 

Bob

Hi David, I would consider what Bob said above. If there is an issue with running them on Scaltrax, then go for the 3 rail wheel sets. If you decide the fixed pilots do not work for you , I don't think you will have a problem finding a home for them or trade someone for the swinging pilot versions. I too have noticed how hard to find the fixed pilot versions of any MTH engine is. I would go for the scale wheeled version and go from there.   

Paul

If you throw the hi rail wheel sets in, there's no problem. On flat top track, the scale wheels should be fine, but may be tempermental with the tighter curves (O72). They're also not fond of 3 rail switch frogs, or bad track work. Furnish your own Kadees, some locomotives are a little more tempermental to get the kadees into than others. You may or may not have to cut the loop off the truck that the 3 rail coupler pins into. As was said above, if you dont like the fixed pilot, they're pretty easy to sell after the fact. 

We've run fixed pilot locos with hi-rail wheels and 2 rail freight cars on tubular track and had no major issues doing so. Running that combo on flat-top rail is not a problem at all. 

When I rebuilt I went with 120 and larger mainline curves and 072 for tight industrial area switching.   Above 096 for branch line. Next layout will have larger curves.

PS I have two 2-rail MTHSD45T for sale on the forum SP&UP 

Clem 

I've been running MTH scale-wheeled diesels since '09 and have posted several videos on YouTube. Here are a some observations having run scale wheels on 3-rail track at the club:

• Tubular track is out of the question. You need flat-top rail for this to work. Gargraves, Ross, Atlas, ScaleTrax, and even FasTrack will work just fine. FasTrack, however, only has a curve-replacement O-72 turnout which will likely have issues if taken at speed in the facing-point direction.
• The engine needs to be well lubricated and you need to break it in as sometimes when they're tight the trucks don't move as freely. Sometimes they'll derail running backward but will be fine running forward (or vice-versa).
• Two engines of the same type WILL behave differently. If running an MU setup, the faster of the two locomotives needs to be on point.
• You need good, kink-free, even track work for six-axle diesels, scale-wheeled Hudsons and scale-wheeled Big Boys. Four-axle diesels are more tolerant. What will cause problems is where one of the running rails dips low. This allows the engine ride on one side of the truck and the pickup-roller and derail.
• Numbered turnout (#4, #5) seem to work well for scale-wheeled MTH engines but #6 and larger Ross turnouts have a large gap in the frog that will be a problem (a frog point or re-working will solve that). Ross and Atlas both seem to work, by I prefer the construction of the Ross turnouts as their guard rails are better. I have run engines slowly through O-72 curve-replacement Ross turnouts successfully but don't recommend it other than in the trailing point direction.
• You can use 805/740 series couplers on the diesel locomotives by filing down the rear of the coupler box by about 1/8" This will give you a bit more swing than using the 806/743 short-box couplers. The one exception I've encountered so far is the rear pilot on the GP35 (and probably the SD35) as the trucks are a lot closer to the rear pilot. The 806/743 is required.
• Cars with long overhang on the ends my cause issues in sharp curves (O-72) when coupled to the locomotive, but that's a case-by-case situation. An example of one that should have had problems but worked fine is the Atlas 89-foot trailer flat. These run fine through a sharp curve on the layout coupled directly to a C40-9W.

Here's the list of engines I have that have negotiated O-72 without problems (level, kink-free track), but virtually all of the ones with six or more axles have taken issue with bad track in other areas of the layout at some point. I did briefly consider installing hi-rail wheels, but sometimes I run on a 2-rail/DCC layout and don't want to go through the hassle of change-outs. My focus is on cleaning up the bad spots in the AGHR track work.

• Blue Goose 4-6-4 Hudson. By extension, the non-shrouded ATSF Hudson and the other Hudsons will likely work.
• C40-8W (Have 3, one of them is temperamental)
• C40-8 (both run fine)
• C44-9W (surprisingly, both ran fine on the layout until recently -- we may have gotten thermal expansion/contraction/distortion)
• ES44AC (both run on the layout, but have randomly derailed on uneven track)
• GP38 (All five run fine)
• GP35 (all four run fine)
• U25B (all three run fine)
• UP 4-8-8-4 Big Boy (found just about every kink and uneven spot on the layout, but still looked cool and ran great). In theory, the Challenger should have an easier time, but the weight bias of the boiler could still cause problems as it does with the Big Boy.
• F7 ABBA (no issues)
• SD70ACe (have nine of them with scale wheels and all of them behave a little differently on the layout.)

Hope this helps some.

I didn't want to post here as I couldn't add much. I own MTH 2 rail engines and have converted many. None have needed to have the 3 rail tab cut off of the trucks. U cut off the back of, or use the correct KD couplers. 

On the SD45 tunnel motors you really should use the long shank Kadee on the rear which requires the cutting of the claw mount.

clem

The statistics for scale wheels are normally given in radius measurements, not diameter.

MTH Hi-Rail Wheels vs. Scale Wheels Considerations...

I am glad you brought this up. I am a toy train layout on tubular track,  I am also planning a MTH Built to Order. I have always gone with the Hi-Rail, am I doing the right thing?

Matt Jackson is spot on.

Ron H

Hows the pulling power without traction tires? 

Gary:

With a GP38-2, if your track is O-54 (27" radius) it may squeak through. O-72 (36" radius) will have no trouble. Use Kadee 700 couplers. Your freight cars can be up to 60 feet long with body-mounted couplers on O-72, but you'd need hi-rail wheels on everything for tubular track. On Atlas 3-rail cars, removing the 3-rail coupler and installing an Atlas scale coupler will give you the right coupler height. Use after-market 2mmx8mm metric screws to mount the couplers on the MTH locomotive (the included screws in the bag with the snow plow are sometimes too long and are not the best quality).

Ron H:

Thanks for the compliement.

Superwarp:

The pulling power is reduced without traction tires and I have experienced wheel slip on a 48" radius curved grade t the club when pulling cars with a lot of drag (MTH passenger cars). The solution is to add another powered unit up front or behind. Six-axle diesels perform better due to slightly more weight and two extra axles. I've had a love-hate relationship with traction tires over the years as they give unrealistic pulling capacity and can cause engine overheating if you overdo it. I've noticed that scale-wheeled rolling stock seems to roll with less resistance than the fast-angle wheels. Don't know why that is.

I agree with mostly everything, but will reiterate and add some of my experiences.

• Flat top rail.  Of course I use Scaletrax and I think it is the best 3-rail track for running 2-rail engines.
• Good track work.  I've had 3 axle engines derails on O-80 curves due to warped sectional Scaletrax where the track dips at the joints.  With the track nailed down I just need to shim it up so the track is flat and even.  Any time an engine derails I make adjustments and fix it.  I've fixed all the problem spots (3 or 4) and have not had any problems in long time.
• Minimum O72 curves.  This is because of the couplers and not the trucks.  You need to use the medium shank Kadees, but like they said, you need to cut off the back of the box to get it to fit. For some engines like the U30C you need to cut the 3-rail coupler mounting ring also.  Kadee has a longer shank #746 where you might get away with less than O72.
• No "S" curves.  You need at least 10" between curves.  This includes O72 switch crossovers.  I have none, and only use #6 crossover which works well. 
• No Traction tires.  You'll only notice if you have one engine up a grade with lots of cars.  I usually have two or more MUd with 30-40 cars max and don't have a problem.   I have more problems with Lionels single powered E8 units.  For some reason the scale wheels have more traction than bare three rail wheels.  If you do slip you can add weights.

I have not had any problems with Scaletrax #6 switches and prefer them over #4 especially for crossovers.   In fact I wish they made #8s.   The frog rails dips, but the 3-axle engine (mostly what I have) always floats one of the three wheels over the gap so there is usually no dip.  I also run 2-rail rolling stock through them, they do dip but do not derail.  Scaletrax rails are the lowest, so the dip is minimal.

Interestingly, I've been recently working on a part of my new video which goes over all this and compares MTH 3-rail and 2-rail engines.  My hope is it will motivate more people to buy these engines so MTH keeps making them. 

These are mostly what I buy in diesels.  The reasons are because of the fixed pilot, full length handrails, scale couplers, scale wheels and close coupling between MUd engines.  They are the most realistic looking models in 3-rail that you can get.  IMO.

Interesting thread.  What about steam engines leading and trailing trucks, do they tend to bounce through switches, like Ross?  I could ask that about two rail rolling stock trucks.

Rich Battista posted:

I agree with mostly everything, but will reiterate and add some of my experiences.

• Flat top rail.  Of course I use Scaletrax and I think it is the best 3-rail track for running 2-rail engines.
• Good track work.  I've had 3 axle engines derails on O-80 curves due to warped sectional Scaletrax where the track dips at the joints.  With the track nailed down I just need to shim it up so the track is flat and even.  Any time an engine derails I make adjustments and fix it.  I've fixed all the problem spots (3 or 4) and have not had any problems in long time.
• Minimum O72 curves.  This is because of the couplers and not the trucks.  You need to use the medium shank Kadees, but like they said, you need to cut off the back of the box to get it to fit. For some engines like the U30C you need to cut the 3-rail coupler mounting ring also.  Kadee has a longer shank #746 where you might get away with less than O72.
• No "S" curves.  You need at least 10" between curves.  This includes O72 switch crossovers.  I have none, and only use #6 crossover which works well. 
• No Traction tires.  You'll only notice if you have one engine up a grade with lots of cars.  I usually have two or more MUd with 30-40 cars max and don't have a problem.   I have more problems with Lionels single powered E8 units.  For some reason the scale wheels have more traction than bare three rail wheels.  If you do slip you can add weights.

 

I have not had any problems with Scaletrax #6 switches and prefer them over #4 especially for crossovers.   In fact I wish they made #8s.   The frog rails dips, but the 3-axle engine (mostly what I have) always floats one of the three wheels over the gap so there is usually no dip.  I also run 2-rail rolling stock through them, they do dip but do not derail.  Scaletrax rails are the lowest, so the dip is minimal.

Interestingly, I've been recently working on a part of my new video which goes over all this and compares MTH 3-rail and 2-rail engines.  My hope is it will motivate more people to buy these engines so MTH keeps making them. 

These are mostly what I buy in diesels.  The reasons are because of the fixed pilot, full length handrails, scale couplers, scale wheels and close coupling between MUd engines.  They are the most realistic looking models in 3-rail that you can get.  IMO.

 

Unfortunately for me I don't have the space for anything larger than 048. I just wanted to say your layout looks fantastic. Do you have more pictures or a video posted Rich?

Denny,

   Thanks.  I have a website www.toytrainsontracks.com with lots more photos.  I also have Youtube videos, just search Youtube for "toytrainsontracks".  I also, sell several how-to/train action DVDs at http://www.toytrainsontracks.com/DVDsPage.html.

Gary,

   I've been tempted to buy a scale wheel steam engine because the wheels, especially the front pilot wheels, look so much better, but I'm afraid of the derailing.  I think Al Z bought one and had problems.  He has Scaletrax.   My next layout will have the required 54" radius curves with minimal switches so I can run scale steam.  My 2-rail rolling stock works good, but the difference is (I think) those trucks have weight whereas the front pilot trucks on steam does not.  I think the weigh help keep them down and from bouncing.  ?? I would like to borrow one and try it some day and see if works.

Rich

www.toytrainsontracks.com

So another question arises for Rich and Gary.  For those of us planning a future layout, do you recommend waiting on the long delayed MTH Scaletrax or would you recommend a close second? I am in the same boat where I want to run scale wheel engines and rolling stock.  All with Kadee's. I have the room for larger radius turns so I should be good there as well.  My biggest dilemma is what track should I start acquiring for this Project.  I have some Scaletrax that I have been snatching up when I see it, but I'm really looking for some advice on what you guys think.  I would hate to invest in a track where the engines/rolling stock derail going over turnouts because of the "dip" in the turnouts. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. 

Marc

Marc,

  That's a tough one.  If you are not in a hurry and can wait a few months then I would wait to see if Scaletrax is available this summer as reported on another thread.  However, you can't count on delivery dates they set.  Who knows, it could be another year.  If it does come in, I would buy everything you need at one time and extras.  You can always easily sell what you don't need.  The only other choice I would recommend is Atlas, but I think they have issues with delivering product also. 

If I do a new layout some day, I will have to plan it around Scaletrax availability.   I plan on only using #6 switches, 30" straight and 30" flextrack since all my curves will be 54" radius or more.  There are less joints with the long sections, and you can stagger the rails with flextrack making smoother curves with less dips which is perfect for scale wheels.  My flextrack sections with larger curves work flawlessly with the scale wheels.  Wider curves just look better and more realistic.  I would give up quantity of track for quality.  

Rich

superwarp1 posted:

Interesting thread.  What about steam engines leading and trailing trucks, do they tend to bounce through switches, like Ross?  I could ask that about two rail rolling stock trucks.

Interestingly enough, on my two scale-wheeled steam locomotives (Big Boy 4014 and ATSF 3460 'Goose') I have not had derailing any problems with either the pilot or trailing trucks. Two reasons -- two axles and floating mount. This keeps the wheels on the rails even if the rails are uneven since there's no pickup roller to interfere. The driver frames are rigid (I suspect they'd work well with sprung drivers), have a longer wheelbase, and can ride on the pickup rollers, therefore being more susceptible to derailing on uneven 3-rail flat-top track.

By the way, a shout-out to Rich Battista as his video sewed up my decision to go with both ScaleTrax and scale wheels in a 3-rail application.

Hey Matt, 

  Glad I had an influence.  Now we just need to enlist more people!

Rich

Thanks for everyone's terrific input on this thread!  Lots of helpful information. 

So I have just a few more related questions:  Do the MTH Premier diesels not come with any couplers whatsoever (i.e., neither Kadee style nor typical 3-rail electrocouplers)?  And it's the buyer's responsibility to install Kadee style couplers to achieve/maintain the "scale appearance"?  Which then presumes you've also got Kadee's on the rolling stock too?

From what I was reading... do I understand it correctly that there is some type of switch on these scale-wheeled diesels that determines whether the center-rail pickup is active (i.e., 3-rail operation) or inactive (2-rail operation)?  My plan is to run 3-rail, with the layout track powered by 2 MTH Z-4000's.  I was really only interested in the scale-wheeled diesels because of their fixed pilots, since I'll have sufficiently broad radii to handle that... and I like the look of those fixed pilot diesels.

Thanks for helping to clarify these additional questions!

David

David, that exact question came up recently on another forum. I was informed that "-2" diesels do not come with any type of coupler. The user is responsible for adding a scale coupler. 

Yes there is a 2 rail/3 rail switch. Any regular 3 rail MTH locomotive with also have this switch if it is a 3/2 locomotive. Meaning it can run on 2 rails or 3 rails. Not all the MTH diesels are 3/2 so the ones that aren't 3/2 will not have the switch. 

Just my opinion David but scale wheels, fixed pilots, body mounted couplers, no traction tires, greater than 072 curves, no "S" curves, better than average track work, etc. sounds like it should be a two rail layout not a  three rail hybrid compromise.

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Just my opinion David but scale wheels, fixed pilots, body mounted couplers, no traction tires, greater than 072 curves, no "S" curves, better than average track work, etc. sounds like it should be a two rail layout not a  three rail hybrid compromise.

Paul, that's pretty much the conclusion I'm beginning to draw as well.  As much as I like the look of fixed pilot diesel locomotives (i.e., Rich Battista's video's are great examples), I'm not sure I have the interest to go full-throttle into the "3-Rail Scale World" at a minimum or "2-Rail Scale" in its entirety.  I have too much invested in locos and rolling stock that don't fit neatly into the 3RS world, and I have no plans to modify those jewels with Kadee-mounted couplers.  That's just not where I'm at in the hobby.  When I spend $435-ish for an MTH Premier diesel, I want it to INCLUDE couplers and enjoy the remote electro-coupler capability that comes with the hi-rail wheels versions and DCS control.

That being said, I do think this thread had some terrifically valuable information -- at least for me... and hopefully it helped shed some light on this whole topic for other readers as well.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed great info and comments to this thread. 

If folks want to continue the discussion -- i.e., weighing pro's and con's, etc... -- go for it.  But I think I'll be keeping both my feet firmly planted in the 3-rail world (for now). 

David

PAUL ROMANO posted:

Just my opinion David but scale wheels, fixed pilots, body mounted couplers, no traction tires, greater than 072 curves, no "S" curves, better than average track work, etc. sounds like it should be a two rail layout not a  three rail hybrid compromise.

If you have 3-rail equipment that you can't upgrade or replace easily, then the hybrid compromise is pretty much were you have to go (my situation). However, I've followed the philosophy that "just because we can doesn't mean we should" so all of my designs have followed 2-rail practice -- no "S" curves, wider curves and numbered turnouts, but designed with 3-rail track with 2-rail capability (I have a couple of 2-rail DC engines I'd like to be able to use).

superwarp1 posted:

Hows the pulling power without traction tires? 

Pulling power with just scale wheels ....if one engine (for ex. premier gp35)tries to pull my 42 car consist the wheels will just spin on the tracks, first one set of trucks and then the other as the tach reader flywheel is trying to make adjustments . I call it burning the rails....the 2 can motors though seem to have plenty of grunt. Kinda wish i could spit sand...guy in the cab says there fullbut i cant find the dcs command on my remote...

Just like real world trains i just add more power as seen in this video.

I run a 2rail 3 rail combo using atlas 2 rail flex and atlas 3 rail sectional.

FWIW...2 rail atlas and scale wheels is very quiet compared to 3 rail.

More fun with fixed pilots and no rubber tires

https://youtu.be/8zd-JD5torw