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Before reading this I do not want to start a argument about the quality of MTH products.

 

I have recently had some problems with my MTH Premier fleet of steam locomotives, all of these problems were caused by faulty electronics and transformers. The first incident was at the Smoky Mountain Model Railroaders club layout, I was running a passenger consist with my MTH premier H-3 Consolidation in the lead when it stopped and the tender began to smoke. I sent it to a gentleman who is a authorized MTH service center, he replaced the electronics and a new tether. It ran for about four or five minutes and then died, it also began to continually fire the rear coupler. The gentleman said their is nothing he can do so I give up on the locomotive.Then a few weeks later I was running my Southern Crescent set and I set up the DCS light system and the locomotive would not respond so I changed the batteries and still nothing so I went back to conventional and still no response, it also makes a crackling sound. I do not know what is wrong, I am cursed!? I hope someone can shed some light on this and help me out. 

 

Thank you

Josh Scott    

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Originally Posted by Josh Scott:
Doc- I have the engine here with me now and the locomotive moved about one inch with me and then stopped I do not know what is wrong. Dennis very funny I will call her soon! Thanks everyone for the responses. Josh

Hey Josh, I've got the perfect cure for these balky MTH engines with the messed up electronics. It's called mini wire cutters, and they've been a blessing for some of the clunkers I've bought off 'da bay. It's how amazing how reliable they run on straight DC. p/s  Wanna' sell that clunker? Bill 

I'd proubley get blasted for saying this..josh,the one engine keeped firing off the coupler is the 3 clanks of death..it can be repaired..by using a factory reset chip and replace the white 9 volts battery with the green one..Im not to impressed with MTH my self..I'd thought by now MTH and Lionel would have there sound and electronics up to where dcc HO's are at now.. ..O gage was the leader in sounds and funtions. but not no more..DCC in HO's are leading now..thats my opinion..

Originally Posted by joseywales:

I'd proubley get blasted for saying this..josh,the one engine keeped firing off the coupler is the 3 clanks of death..it can be repaired..by using a factory reset chip and replace the white 9 volts battery with the green one..Im not to impressed with MTH my self..I'd thought by now MTH and Lionel would have there sound and electronics up to where dcc HO's are at now.. ..O gage was the leader in sounds and funtions. but not no more..DCC in HO's are leading now..thats my opinion..

Hi Josey,

 

I won't blast you, but I do want to point out that your info/advice is not applicable to the original poster's engine.  The H-3 Consolidation was never produced in PS1.  The are no 3 clanks of death or reset chips for PS2 or PS3.  I would agree that HO sound decoders have surpassed PS1 for sound quality, but a Tsunami or Quantum Revolution still has a LONG way to go to get catch up with a PS3's sound, let alone Legacy.  It's just my opinion as well, but O gauge is still years ahead of HO on sound and speed control.

Josh,  An authorized MTH tech should back the repair with a 90 day warranty.  A tech should also make good on the repair.  He may have missed something that caused the original issue.

 

I have seen the coupler FET short when the boards get grounded to chassis ground.  Based on what you have said, it wouldn't surprise me that there is a wiring issue in the engine that may have caused the original and second board to fail.

 

Not sure what is wrong with Southern, but until it is tested you won't know.

 

So I would take the first engine back to the tech and ask why it isn't under warranty.

 

If you want to have me look at the Southern, you can contact me via my e-mail in my profile.  G

Josh, the Southern needs to be 'Factory Reset' with the DCS system in order for the Remote Commander set to work. It's probably fine.

 

The local tech didn't charge Josh for the work or the new board and said this is the first one he's not been able to fix.

He actually had it running  for a few minutes fine but then it shorted out again. This would seem to rule out the wiring problem that the club was having.

 He also called MTH about it but I don't recall what the final disposition was. 

 

These are some good suggestions Josh, especially about the coupler. Perhaps therein lies the answer.

 

As far as we know, there are no other techs within a several hundred mile radius from here!

Last edited by c.sam
Originally Posted by joseywales:

I'd proubley get blasted for saying this..josh,the one engine keeped firing off the coupler is the 3 clanks of death..it can be repaired..by using a factory reset chip and replace the white 9 volts battery with the green one..Im not to impressed with MTH my self..I'd thought by now MTH and Lionel would have there sound and electronics up to where dcc HO's are at now.. ..O gage was the leader in sounds and funtions. but not no more..DCC in HO's are leading now..thats my opinion..

The H3 is a proto2 engine and hence you never get the 3 clanks of death and if you think HO sound is better, well I will say no more.

 

 

josh,

 

send the h3 back to me, I will make sure it is repaired correctly. You have my address. 

 

Dave

Lately I've had terrible luck with MTH (three Premier, one Railking and two RTRs with a five problems in locos or controllers) but I think it is just a string of bad luck.  It will not dissuade me from buying MTH again.  I've had good luck with Lionel - one problem in twenty Legacy locos (and that receiving awesome service) so I hope that does mean something.  I would not give up on MTH just yet.

Dave Hikel wrote " but O gauge is still years ahead of HO on sound and speed control."


I agree with the sound part but disagree on speed control. BEMF in HO DCC decoders has provided HO operators with amazing speed control either in either conventional or under DCC control. I simply do not believe O gauge can claim superiority with respect to speed control.

Hi all,

 

I hesitate to post because we are getting away from the original topic.  However, I think I should be clear about what makes MTH PS2/3 and Lionel Odyssey 2 speed control superior to what is offered in HO.

 

To date, all HO decoders with electronic speed control, except for MTH PS3, have used BEMF.  For those who don't know, BEMF works thanks to the natural properties of a DC electric motor.  When you apply voltage and the motor spins.  However, if the motor is spinning and you remove the input current, the motor becomes a generator and gives back an electro magnetic force (aka a voltage).  The faster the motor is spinning the higher the voltage.  Modern motor control electronics on both O and HO use pulse width modulation to govern motor RPMs, which provides an opportunity to measure BEMF from the motor many times per second.  You will often see HO decoders marketed as having a high BEMF frequency, suggesting superior motor control.  BEMF works great for basic motor control, but it has some real limitations.  You will see many HO engines with good BEMF decoders that will run VERY slow.  However, good speed control requires more than slow speed.  It requires REPEATABILITY.  This where BEMF runs into trouble.

 

The back voltage from a spinning motor is dependent not only of the motor's speed, but also on the resistance in the motor windings, air gap between stator and armature, and a few other lesser factors.  Seemingly identical motors come off the production line with subtle variations in all of these factors.  As a result, no two motors are exactly alike.  What's more, as the temperature of the motor changes these same electrical characteristics change.  Occasionally, you will see well versed HO decoder programmers refer to "the warm motor effect."  As a motor warms up the back voltage usually decreased.  Unless you account for these variations in production and operation conditions, BEMF has a wide margin of error.  Speed step 25 might be 15 scale miles per hour at one time and 16.5 smph at another on the same engine.  Two engines that are well matched when cold may not be well matched when one or both are warm.  In industry, you will sometimes see BEMF used for motor control where low to moderate accuracy of RPM control is needed.  In the best cases, the motors are carefully tested to document their electrical characteristics across a range of operating conditions.  The electronics that govern the motors are then programmed for specifically for each motor to maintain as tight a tolerance as possible.  But even with all these efforts, the best BEMF systems are only accurate to within about 0.5%.  Not surprisingly, model manufacturers don't both with such costly and time consuming designs.  They take the motors as they come and call it good.  Most HO decoders are only accurate to within 10% on RPM control. That doesn't mean they can't run 1 smph, it just means they can't reliably run the same speed every time.

 

High frequency BEMF makes things worse at slow speed rather than better.  Most HO engines these days use 5 pole skew wound motors.  With only five poles, as the motor speed decreases there is a subtle fluctuation in the back voltage.  Low frequency motor controls can ignore this fluctuation because the motor spins more than one pole while current is shut off.  High frequency picks up the fluctuation and confuses the motor controller.  So why wouldn't manufacturers use a lower frequency speed control?  Why would they in fact brag about having high frequency controls if they are all less accurate at slow speeds?  The answer is WHINE.  Remember the the noise from Train America EOB boards?  That was low frequency BEMF at work.  It did a great job controlling the motor, but you can hear it working.  Decoder manufacturers push their motor control to frequencies we can't hear in spite of the diminished accuracy.

 

So, is there a better way that is more accurate?  Yep!  Optical and magnetic encoding.  Both MTH and Lionel use optical encoders (tach readers) to measure actual motor RPMs, rather than infer them.  It doesn't matter if each motor is slightly different or if it is hot or cold.  The electronics simply adjust the pulse width to produce the commanded speed.  Since 2000 when MTH released PS2 and 2007 when Lionel released Odyssey 2, both companies have used this highly accurate motor measurement to adopt a consistent speed map for all their locomotives.  They account for the drive wheel diameter and gear ratio on each engine.  That allows any two PS2/3 engines to consist with each other regardless of prototype.  The same is true for Legacy engines with Odyssey 2.

 

So what stops other HO manufacturers from adopting their own optical or magnetic encoding systems?  Cost, disparate manufacturing, and market demand.  Encoding systems are more expensive and they require additional time to install on the production line.  BEMF saves time and money.  In HO, most model manufacturers don't make their own electronics.  Athearn, Atlas, and Bachmann make models while Soundtraxx, QSI, and MRC make the electronics that run them.  That makes it more difficult to coordinate an effort to make the electronics and their programming fit any given production run.  In contrast, MTH and Lionel keep both functions in house, so coordination is easier.  To date, the only HO manufacturer to offer products with a consistent speed map is MTH.  They have been gaining popularity in HO and some people are starting to see the advantages of such a system.  But, for the most part, people in HO still don't know what they're missing.

Originally Posted by Dave Hikel:

 

So what stops other HO manufacturers from adopting their own optical or magnetic encoding systems?  Cost, disparate manufacturing, and market demand.  Encoding systems are more expensive and they require additional time to install on the production line.  BEMF saves time and money.  In HO, most model manufacturers don't make their own electronics.  Athearn, Atlas, and Bachmann make models while Soundtraxx, QSI, and MRC make the electronics that run them.  That makes it more difficult to coordinate an effort to make the electronics and their programming fit any given production run.  In contrast, MTH and Lionel keep both functions in house, so coordination is easier.  To date, the only HO manufacturer to offer products with a consistent speed map is MTH.  They have been gaining popularity in HO and some people are starting to see the advantages of such a system.  But, for the most part, people in HO still don't know what they're missing.

I'm not sure they miss anything.  The intent and beauty of DCC is that no one modeler would be tied to a proprietary system.

 

Rusty

Dave Hikel

 

Very nice explanation. I think the noise issue,if it existed could be filtered out. Noise would be due to poor circuitry design,not the  BEMF method used.  Also 10% accuracy is pretty good and acceptable and would not be noticed by the average user. If I understand correctly,that would mean if it was set at 1 scale MPH (I apologize to MTH for infringing on their patent) it could be going .9 MPH or 1.1 MPH.

 

After having problems with Lionel "Oddesey" and numerous MTH PS (fill in the blank) problems,I would welcome a simpler, more reliable universal design.  I must say though the PS2 cruise works with no problems for me,but not any better than other systems if they are functioning properly.  I would not invest heavily in either proprietary system but would in a system that allowed 3rd party development.

 

Dale H

I agree pretty much with Dale, including that I thought it was a good explanation.

 

personally, I think universality would be worth sacrificing some features and accuracy for, if it really meant a system that would work across all locos (or almost all) and all situations, dependably and without fuss, every time, any layout, any brand train.  I'll get on board: give me that, and I'd upgrade to something other than conventional-only, even if I did not have all the "features" Legacy and/or PS3 promise (and sometimes deliver) now.

Originally Posted by Dave Hikel:

 But, for the most part, people in HO still don't know what they're missing.

Nice explanation, Ted! Appreciate it. However, I operate HO using Soundtraxx Tsumami and O as DCS operator and except for the sound being proportionate to the scale, I don't feel like I'm necessarily missing anything. Even with the DCS, I set speed according to what looks good to me, not necessarily what the remote display is saying. Thanks again.

 

Bob

 

Dave- You have articulated your case extremely well and on that basis alone I will concede that legacy and PS3 provide  superior speed control to that provided by an HO DCC decoder with BEMF.

 

What is a definite plus to BEMF HO decoders is that they will work with any DCC controller thanks to NMRA standardization and they can quickly and inexpensively upgrade an analog HO or British OO scale engine to cruise control. As someone before noted, the German company ESU makes its "LokPilot" decoders with BEMF that are available for around $15.95!!!

 

i realize that my initial argument that BEMF was as good as anything in O scale did not  include any mention of price so this is more of an "OK maybe BEMF is not AS good as legacy or PS3 but for the price it's a real bargain" rebuttal!

 

I have converted a number of my older Hornby British-made OO scale engines with the old 3 pole Ringfield motors and BEMF has given them a new lease on life as they smoothly and quietly creep at just a few scale MPH's. On the newer Hornby engines with either 5 pole Ringfields or can motors, I can get them to move so slowly that it is almost impossible to tell if they are moving at all.

 

I would be perfectly content for my own purposes to be able to use BEMF in my O gauge engines, but I do not double head or do the more sophisticated things that many others do and where Legacy and PS3 excel.

 

Kind regards,

Mack

Originally Posted by Josh Scott:

I am cursed!? I hope someone can shed some light on this and help me out.

Although I'm new to the hobby I'll say, don't despair.  I have a MTH Railking RTR Steamer that is vexing me at times (I'll save that for another thread), but my RTR SD70ACe seems to be a dreadnought.  When necessary, I'm especially glad to have a Williams F7 to 'just run' if the electronics get the best of me.  Good luck getting your engines back up and running! 

I've seen DCC decoder equipped locomotives get right down and crawl at 12 rr ties per minute..nice & smooth.

 

All DCS guarantees is smooth running down to 3 smph..any slower and they start jerking & stuttering.

 

The new QSI Titan DCC decoder blows away PS2 & 3...MTH should have stuck with QSI and saved millions of $$$ in R&D trying to get some archaic motorola/ marklin system known as DCS to work..which still bty only works about half the time...not to mention the wedge that was driven when PS1 was dropped.    

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