MTH PRR F-7 shipping

I already got mine from my local hobby shop.  They run very well-- PS3 is a joy to operate and are extremely strong pullers. They are exquisitely finished, with a large amount of detail, and some Pennsy specfic features on the PRR units. I am sure more fastidiuos modelers will find the few deviations from the prototype to be bothersome, but I can live with most all of them.  I will let others get theirs and then we can have a spirited, and possibly informed, discussion on their merits and deficiencies.  But as far as I am concerned, they displaced a GG1 on my layout..and that is saying a lot.

By the way, if Christopher N&W is really going to get into diesels, he should start with this set.  Among other things, he would not have to worry about the positioning of the eccentric crank

John,

Are you using DCC or DCS?  Also, do the A units have fixed pilots?

Thanks,

Ed

How about some pics?

I ordered one too but no word yet from the dealer.

Curious to know any noticeable deviations from PRR prototype.

I thought MTH was good about using PRR style fan housings on the roof.  Correct?

They run very well-- PS3 is a joy to operate and are extremely strong pullers. They are exquisitely finished, with a large amount of detail, and some Pennsy specfic features on the PRR units.

Such as What? I am hoping for front lift rings as well as Trainphone Antenna Equipped A units. IS this the case?

I thought MTH was good about using PRR style fan housings on the roof.  Correct?

This is a "first!" What is a PRR Style Fan housing???

The website linked below which was posted 2 months ago provides a bunch of photos of the production sample.

Looks very nice.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150819451029159.344566.85108529158&type=1#!/media/set/?set=a.10150819451029159.344566.85108529158&type=1

Regarding my comment on the fans, my typing was out of sync with my brain.  I meant winterization covers around the fan roof openings which is not a PRR unique feature.  The MTH version has it correct for the PRR E-8 they made but didn't realize the F-7s are a little different on the roof.  The MTH F-7s do have the antenna, lifting eyes on nose, and on the roof as well.  I need to check my books at home to see if they have the number boards right.  I do recall that different number board configurations were found on F-7s.

See the pics on the link.

I need to check my books at home to see if they have the number boards right. 

They appear to be correct.

I do recall that different number board configurations were found on F-7s.

Actually those were the EMD F-3's that had the OEM Small number board/class light config as opposed to O guage's insistance of the optional EMD big number board for the F-3's.

HiGuys,

I just checked out MTH's Facebook page on these engines.  I have several questions for you PRR Diesel experts:

1.  Are those pilots correct?  I thought that PRR freight F units had passenger pilots. 

2.  The paint looks too dark.  Maybe it's my eyes, but I see a little hint of green in pictures of the prototype F units.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

a couple comments on the facebook photos of the model:

the number boards are too big and slightly too far forward

the numbers in the numberboard are too small

the freight pilot is incorrect, the lower portion does not flare out that much

the paint color is pretty good, not perfect but better than most.

the PRR units only had 36" fans, which are correct as shown in the photos

yes, just about all PRR F units had the 'passenger' pilot

less important: the rooftop lift rings are huge

excuse me, I have to get back to my rivet counting.

I cancelled my order shortly after seeing an MTH B&O F at the O scale national.  I didn't like the PS3 umbilical and the truck mounted steps.  I'm glad I did as MTH placed post steam era nose climbing rungs on the model.    I'm  going for Sunset PRR FP7's and lobby for AtlasO PRR F3's.

Ed Rappe

All PRR F3's had the small or "streamlined" number boards. All PRR F7's had the larger 45 degree number boards. All PRR F's had 'Passenger' style pilots except for 9518 and 9519, which were bought for pusher service on the curve and were equipped with 'freight' style pilots.. All F's except 9518 and 9519 came with coupler doors on their pilots. The latter two engines were equipped (for a time) with shop made coupler doors which were quite a bit different from the EMD version. All F's were factory equipped with only ONE horn. The headlight sheet metal had a slight backward tilt.

Simon

The PRR T&HS magazine "The Keystone" had an excellent article on F's which included a shot of 9518 with the shop made coupler doors. It's mate 9519 was involved in a grade crossing accident and ended up with an F9 nose (the F9 headlight sits perpendicular as opposed to the slight rearward tilt of the earlier F's. You can see this on the NS corporate A unit. A lot of minor issues, bottom line being: Do you want it correct or not?

I'm  going for Sunset PRR FP7's and lobby for AtlasO PRR F3's.

Ed Rappe

Agreed! There has not been a mass produced Scale worthy PRR F3 Made yet. Both Lionel and MTH have made a lot of errors.

I understand the MTH F7s have several details incorrect.  I intimated as much in my first post.  Now thanks to this forum, I know what they are.   I would add to the list that the truck sideframes stick out too far.  I do not think it will be that big a deal to correct any of these, except possibly the number boards.   Stay tuned. It may be my next project.

Hi All,

If I were going to lobby someone to make PRR F-3's, it would be Sunset.  The E-7'w are excellent and have a large horizontal motor.  No more China drives for me!

My $0.02 worth.

Ed

We all should have learned by now that mth is still a 3-rail toy manufacture and that their products are not up to par with Atlas, Sunset, and others. I am still waiting for them to get rid of the "TOY" handrails that hang under the frames. You get what you pay for!

I agree with Ed Rappe "There has not been a mass produced Scale worthy PRR F3 Made yet. Both Lionel and MTH have made a lot of errors."

Stephen

Ed,

As most know, the Atlas F tooling was bought from P&D Hobby. I don't know what parts they might have left these days, but at one time you could build a pretty respectable F from what they had. The key part was a passenger style pilot equipped with coupler doors in black ABS which is how they were equipped from EMD. That and the correct phase body and train phone antennae and you pretty much had your F. Sit that on a P&D drive and brass Blomberg trucks and you would have a decent engine.

Simon

Simon

Agree the P&D F's are perhaps the best way to go for a PRR rivet counter.  I have the P&D body and drives to make an ABA F7 set but they aren't close to the top of the project list as I've put first priority on building the railroad, and then DCC'ing the existing painted locomotives.  

Ed Rappe

Hi Mike ,

I sent you an email , thanks Bernie

Interesting observations.  I have an ABA set of the E-7 from sunset and they too have truck mounted steps and the wire tether between the A-B units.  If these F-7s are delivered similar to the MTH E-8s I do have a solution to resolve both.  On the E-8, I was able to move the truck side frames in board on the truck then mount the steps to the body.  On the tether, it was easy to move it in between the doors and hide it.  The latter makes its much easer to attach the tether between them instead of below by the couplers.    Both relatively easy enough to do.  

On the sunset, I don't know if the truck side frames can be moved in so I can body mount he steps, without it interfering with operation.  The tether, I haven't bothered with since its not too distracting.

Just a word of caution to the less informed/aware.

There are a lot of miss - statements about what F-7s did and did not have in this post string regarding horns, number boards, etc.

It would be good for folks to give references as the basis of their statements like some did and be less dogmatic if they are not sure about their statements.

Actual photos remove all doubts; especially when the photos explain whether or not what is depicted is the rule or an exception.

Suggest checking good books with photos and good captions explaining the photos to be more sure about the facts as to what F-7s looked like new from the factory and the changes that occurred with time until they were scrapped.

Like anything else, let the reader beware regarding fact vs. fiction on this forum.

For those MTH/Lionel bashers, some of us are fine with their products and the price point at which they are offered.  If you want near perfection, step up to the plate and purchase a Keys model for the $3k+ if near perfection is what you want.

OK, tell us what it is we got wrong? Can't make any comments otherwise. Let's keep this constructive!

As far as post delivery modifications, that's a slippery slope, and could be darn near anything! I generally prefer to talk about as built because of that!

I don't think pointing out errors or deficiencies in anyone's product is necessarily bashing. It is what it is, and I don't know of any that are perfect. It's pretty much in the eye of the beholder and that dreaded word OPINION as to what one likes.

Simon

Why is Opinion a dreaded word?  It staves off quite a few attacks.  I no longer get attacked for my "facts" because I don't have any.

I realize that the F-3 ought to be the most copied model of all, and am surprised to hear that there are no accurate O Scale models.  I always thought the All Nation units were pretty good, but in my old age I see things about the windshield area that bother me.

I am happy to report that my All Nations are still here and running.  I think I prefer the Adams FT pair that run on All Nation transmissions.  Hope someday that one of the 3-rail suppliers goes to die cast for these and PAs.  I could buy one of those.

Well did the F-7's have a huge tether?  Did they have steps mounted on the trucks?  I offered constructive approaches to correct or hide those distractions from the model.  I've already voided the warranty by cracking mine open and i haven't even run em yet because of that god aweful tether.

We had that discussion a few years ago.

I got solidly jumped, by somebody I thought liked me, for my "facts".  I was not familiar, at that time, with the internet protocol (jump when you feel like it), and did not want to suffer that sort of thing again.  Since then I have discovered jumping is the same as hurling epithets at your fellow drivers on the freeway, except that other drivers cannot hear you.

No, some folks will not be able to tell the difference, even though it is often obvious.  For instance, I can say "I think the early Cab Forwards were among the most intriguing locomotives ever" and somebody will say I am wrong.  Never mind that "opinion" would be redundant there.

Opinion.

IMO the most authoritative source for information and photos on PRR F units is the PRRT&HS’ The Keystone Volumes 37, Number 3 and 38, Number 1 by Jack Consoli.  The 135 pages document the evolution of PRR’s 363 unit F3/F7/FP7 fleet from delivery to trade-in, and provides modelers (and manufacturers) the information needed to capture PRR unique features.  The author’s sources include correspondence and drawings drawn from both EMD and PRR document archives.  Another good, but less detailed source for information about PRR F units Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial – Volume Six EMD and Alco Freight Cab Units by Paul Withers (103 pages on F’s).

The details on PRR diesels evolved over time due to production run variations and post delivery modifications.  The nose ladder rungs on the MTH F7 model dates it to post August 3, 1959, when to comply with ICC rule, the railroad instructed its shops to install two steps below the frame, four rungs on the side of the nose, and an additional one on top. Unfortunately MTH failed to model the two steps below the frame, and used straight rungs versus the prototype drop rungs on the four nose side steps.  MTH did model the two nose ladder rests and the grab irons over the windshield which became standard in the 1952 time frame.

Other comments on the model include:

• Prior to the nose modifications, the PRR issued orders to remove the fuel tank skirts.  With this change the builders and trust plates were moved to the body.  The MTH F7 model mixes early style skirts with late style nose details.  Modelers who are troubled by the incongruity could cut the fuel tank skirts and move the plates – or backdate the nose by removing the 5 ladder rungs, leaving the ground ladder rests.
• The letters PENNSYLVANIA on the model appear to be taller than prototype when compared to PRR drawings and photos published in The Keystone.  See photo on Vol 37 Number 3, page 38.  In the post 8/1959 era modeled by MTH body engine numbers were 9“tall and the road name 8” tall.  In the model photos they appear to be the same size – probably a scale 9” - .  The numbers in the angled number boards should be 5” tall.  Detail oriented modelers might want to verify the size of the letters and numbers on the MTH model.
• Diaphragms between the road freight and passenger units were removed by the PRR during 1952/3 time frame.  The 1959 era MTH model should not have diaphragms – easy fix is to remove them.  If back dating the model to a pre 1952 era I recommend replacing the diaphragms with longer ones, as the MTH factory applied ones ride too high.
• The MTH number boards stand off the body too far.  Contrast them with photo of PRR F7 9331 on page 36  of Keystone Vol37, No.3.  P&D has several styles of number board castings.
• The model has PRR design lift lugs on the nose, but lacks the lifting lugs found on the blind end of A and B units.  Keil Line offers a white metal lifting lug casting set.
• The roof lift rings appear to be noticeably oversize.  P&D has good ones.
• The port hole glazing should be clear and flat.  In the photo the MTH porthole glass looks odd.
• Steps should be attached to the body, and be near flush with the sides.  On the MTH model the front two steps are truck mounted and the rearmost step is attached to the frame - standing out from the body.  AtlasO was able to body mounted the steps on their F3 models.  P&D has step castings.
• As previously noted the MTH PRR F7 has the wrong pilot.  All PRR F7’s were delivered with straight EMD “passenger” style pilots equipped with coupler pilot doors. (F3’s had several variations).  In 1955 the PRR issued orders to remove all coupler pilot doors from their road diesel fleet.  P&D offers suitable pilots for both eras.
• Most PRR F’s were delivered by EMD with non-tapered 2” nose stripes, and later were repainted by the railroad with nose taper by the mid 1950’s.  However a small number retained non-tapered stripes as found on the MTH model until the end.
• Depending on production order, PRR F’s were delivered with a variety of single and three chime horns.  Horns were also commonly exchanged during shopping resulting in a variety of looks.  The triple horn on the MTH model is not incorrect.

I am attempting to capture the look and feel of the PRR in the steam to diesel transition years and have chosen 1952 as a modeling date (the last year T1’s saw service).  For my modeling era the MTH F7 would require a large number of changes - and possibly a repaint. While the MTH model offers a lot of locomotive for the price, but for my purposes it would just require too much work at a time when I’d get more modeling satisfaction from other projects.    Meanwhile back to scenery.

Ed Rappe

My dash 9 manual says to send a decimal 08 to cv8 to reset everything back to factory. send a decimal 192 to reset everything except user speed tables.

send a value of 55 to cv55 to engine address 55 if you don't know the engines adress. The engine must not be at address 55 currently

or send a value of 3 to cv1 (setting the short address to 3)

sheesh, now I'm confused