MTH PS 1 to 2 to 3 Time frame

Rick,

From a BCR point of view, proceed as follows:

• Any non-PS3 engine without a battery charging port is either a PS1 or 5 volt PS2, and takes an 8.4 volt BCR.
• Any engine with a round battery charging port is a 5 volt PS2, and akes an 8.4 volt BCR.
• Any engine with a 2-pin, somewhat rectangular battery charging port is 3 volt PS2, and takes a 2.4 volt BCR2.

PS3 engines already have a super capacitor and do not require a BCR at all.

Barry:  Thank You Valuable information I did not realize that that there were 2 differently rated BCR,s. All I need to do now is look at each and every locomotive to determine that. I think your suggestion will be easier then my plan to research each locomotive by number on MTH's website to determine what version it would be. I have also noticed some locomotives were marked with the PS version installed. Also I think some of the boxes were marked with the PS version installed. Your comment about PS3 will also cut down the numbers I need as I do have a fair amount of PS3 units just not sure how many. I also have many  locomotives that have never been taken out of the box and are several years old and I want to address any battery issues I may have before I ever put them on a track.

Barry’s information, as usual, is extremely helpful and to the point, but you really should familiarize yourself with your equipment beyond just putting a BCR in them.

You won’t find PS1 anywhere on an MTH box. The first Protosounds units are simply marked Protosounds and are often referred to as original Protosounds. PS1 is hobbyist shorthand for original Protosounds and not an MTH designation.

Also, knowing how PS1 locomotives react to a dead battery is important. With PS2, the operational issues from a dead battery aren’t as dramatic. This is important even when using BCRs, given that those capacitors won’t last forever.

You might want to research board failures on early PS2 models. My repair tech is beginning to suspect the failures weren’t inherent in the boards themselves but may be tied to a batch of faulty speakers, with a zinc ring in them that may be prone to zinc rot and may be shorting out the boards as the speaker delaminates. Replacing the speakers on certain models may save you hundreds of dollars.

In general, it might be a good idea to look up the schematics for your models. You probably need to do some remedial self-training if you weren’t even aware that not all battery units took the 8.4-volt NiCad (especially since the 2.4-volt PS2 design was used much longer by MTH) and that PS3 units use built-in capacitors and not batteries.

There’s lots of information right here in the archive of this forum to help you in your research, or you can do Google searches to find answers (which often still comes from the OGR Forum).

Going to the MTH website for information on each locomotive is also a good idea.

Barry & Jim Thank you for the information. I am slowing unpacking my locomotive fleet and do not want to damage any or create any problems by having bad or weak batteries.  I will remove each battery and check them with a meter and charge them if need be as I have the MTH Charger. My long term plan has always been to replace the batteries with BCR's. The intent of this thread was to try and determine when the changes took place to help me determine how many of each may be required. I did contact MTH and got this reply on Tuesday:

Thank you for contacting MTH Electric Trains. We appreciate your interest in our products. I am afraid I cannot give you an exact date or catalog where we switched from the 5-volt ProtoSound 2.0 to the 3-volt system. For the Premier engines (steam and diesel) in was primarily in the 2004 volume 1 catalog; the majority of the engines offered in that catalog or after have the 3-volt system. For the RailKing engines the switch over was about one catalog later - the 2004 volume 2 catalog. If you have engines that were released around this time we can check on a specific models.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you,

Jim, to your point about knowing that there were 2 different boards 5 vs 3. I was aware of it just did not much attention to it as I never had more than 3 locomotives running at one time. When I would unpack one to run I would charge the battery for a while before running it and always noticed the different charging ports. I wanted to learn the cut off point for 5 vs 3 just to try and cut down the amount of research I needed to do in determining how many and which BCR's I would need to acquire. With the information that both Barry and yourself have supplied along with the MTH email I believe I have less of an issue than I thought as most all of my locomotives will be PS2 3 volts as the majority are post 2004.

I want to Thank both of you for your advice and assistence.

I will remove each battery and check them with a meter and charge them if need be as I have the MTH Charger

Note that a voltmeter will not accurately read the charge of a battery, rather, it will often read a higher "surface charge".

You should test a battery in one of two ways:

• Using a battery test device specific for that battery's stated voltage.
• By holding a small light bulb to the battery's contacts for several seconds. If it starts out reasonably bright and then quickly (after a few seconds) dims, the battery needs to be charged.

If a battery fails a test after charging, it should be replaced.

For all of your PS1 units, I suggest you simply replace the batteries, either with new rechargeable ones from MTH or BCRs from J+W. If the batteries in those units are original, they are at least 17 years old and perhaps much older. There isn’t much to be gained, and more to be lost, in not replacing those right away.

As Barry suggested, you need to test the batteries under load to assess its ability to hold a charge.

Barry: Thanks i did not think about that and I have a load tester that would work. 

Jim: My original thought/plan was to just replace all the batteries PS1 and PS2 with BCR's but after reading the advice on this thread I may hold on just a wholesale replacement program and phase the replacements over time following the suggestion here. Big cost with all the units I have and the other units I converted to PS2 back when MTH first came out with the upgrade kits.

Why use the BCR at all? Maybe on the original proto sounds engines but not the PS2 or 3. The only reason to use a BCR is if the battery is weak in a proto sounds engine, it will scramble the chip, it then it has to be reset. 

I replace proto2 and proto3 with type of battery's that were used. 

The use of BCR's IMO are a waste of money. 

Dave

david1 posted:

Why use the BCR at all? Maybe on the original proto sounds engines but not the PS2 or 3. The only reason to use a BCR is if the battery is weak in a proto sounds engine, it will scramble the chip, it then it has to be reset. 

I replace proto2 and proto3 with type of battery's that were used. 

The use of BCR's IMO are a waste of money. 

Dave

Uh, PS3s don’t have batteries. They have supercapacitors — in other words, like BCRs. So I don’t see how it is you are replacing the batteries in your PS3 units.

In PS2 locomotives, a wornout battery will keep the locomotive in neutral. BCR capacitors last a heck of a lot longer than NiCad or NiMH batteries, which slowly degrade with each charging cycle. Or from setting uncharged for too long.

Jim R. posted:

david1 posted:

Why use the BCR at all? Maybe on the original proto sounds engines but not the PS2 or 3. The only reason to use a BCR is if the battery is weak in a proto sounds engine, it will scramble the chip, it then it has to be reset. 

I replace proto2 and proto3 with type of battery's that were used. 

The use of BCR's IMO are a waste of money. 

Dave

Uh, PS3s don’t have batteries. They have supercapacitors — in other words, like BCRs. So I don’t see how it is you are replacing the batteries in your PS3 units.

In PS2 locomotives, a wornout battery will keep the locomotive in neutral. BCR capacitors last a heck of a lot longer than NiCad or NiMH batteries, which slowly degrade with each charging cycle. Or from setting uncharged for too long.

My mistake, PS3 don't have batteries, but my stand on BCR's stand. 

Dave

Jim,

In PS2 locomotives, a wornout battery will keep the locomotive in neutral.

Yes, however, that's only when operating in conventional mode. Under DCS, while I don't recommend doing so, one can operate a PS2 engine without any battery at all. However, the very slightest power interruption will cause the engine to stop and drop into conventional mode.

This and a whole lot more about DCS is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

This and a whole lot more about DCS WiFi is all in MTH’s “The DCS WiFi Companion 2nd Edition!" This book is available from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

FYI, the official stand that MTH takes on the BCR is neutral.  Not for and not against.  New BCR items are good.  Stay away from very old pink units that have been carried over from the PS1 days.  The current BCR and the roll your own for the PS2 3volt board do very well.  I do not advise a BCR in an old PS2 5 volt board.  Those boards are a time bomb.  As time marches on, we are all getting clear from the 5 volt boards.   I have seen many blow when hit with a BCR.  They are good business for guys who do DCS upgrades.   I currently have 199 DCS upgrades under my belt and have been happy with the PS3 upgrade kits.  

I would add that Marty frequently warns that if any PS1 or early PS2 locos have a white battery, do not power up but immediately discard the battery and replace.  If what I say is wrong, I'm sure Marty will correct me.

I have replaced all my PS2 5-volt boards with 3-volt boards, have upgraded all of my conventional/PS1 engines to PS2, and have replaced all of my batteries with supercaps.

If one uses 3-volt PS2 engines frequently, there is nothing wrong with a battery--mine lasted 8-10 years.

Correct Bob.  Any white battery should be properly discarded.  Like you, I am a huge fan of the PS2  3 volt boards.   You have always done it right.  

I have done a good number of Williams Genesis engines to PS3.   One very useful thing using the LED lighting is if you need a red light, do the following.  Get yourself a fresh red Sharpie and color the LED.  They show a great red color and no worry about heat burning the color off.

Marty: if a BCR is not recommended for a PS2 5 volt board what battery do you suggest? My intent was to replace those batteries with BCR’s, but based on your statement I will need to rethink that idea. Also what is the cost of the most current battery and the lead time from MTH or other source if there is one? I am currently in the process of determining the current status 3 volt vs 5 volt on all my PS2 locomotives. I am not opposed to using a current replacement battery over a BCR. I would need to make a cost comparison and performance comparison before choosing. Upgrading to PS3 could be very costly based on the number I would have convert which is yet to determined. I have upgraded several PS1 to PS2 already and I have to ask would the upgrade kits used be 3 or 5 volt boards? I am pretty sure I have more than 1 white battery and that number is still to be determined. MTH gave me some approximate dates to work with and based on that I am trying to get an actual count of each version I may have. That information and what Barry supplied concerning the charging ports should help me make the required determinations and come to a final status. Thus a final approximate cost. The last thing I want to happen is to cook a board in any locomotive. In closing I have been out of touch with this entire subject due to everything being packed up for over 2 years due to the construction and move into a new home. 

I want to Thank everyone who has contributed to this topic I never expected so much input and I very grateful for all of it. It will all be worth while if it keeps me from damaging just 1 locomotive. 

PS2 upgrade kits were all 3 volt. They are no longer available, having been replaced by  PS3 upgrade kits.

I would never replace an operable 3 volt PS2 board with a PS3.

Rick, I use the green MTH battery only.

RJR: Thank you , I never intended to replace a PS3 volt board, I just did not know what the upgrade were.

Marty:  Thank You as I inspect each unit to determine 3 or 5 volt if and when I find a 5 volt I will open it up to determine which battery is install and remove all white batteries. My next question would be were the white batteries used on the 3 volt boards? I know years ago I bought several spare batteries when I bought the charger and I think they were all white and found corrosion on several of them and they were never installed in anything. That scares me what will I find when I open up the units.

Unlike the Lionel diesels 60 years ago, a corroded battery in an mth loco shouldn't do any damage other than a clip.

The white batteries were 8.4 volts for the 5 volt board.

The so-called 9 volt rechargeable batteries are actually either 7.2 or 8.4 volts.  Any 8.4 NiCad or NiMH can be used. 7.2 cannot.

RJR: Thank You so I need to worry about are 5 volt PS2 and a couple of PS1 units I have floating around. 

I wouldn't worry, but would use the cheapest 8.4 volt recgareables I could find for 5 volt ps2 boards.