MTH PS1 sounds using TMCC

Hopefully John pops up and gives the details, but it involves putting a cap across the output of the PowerMasters (PMs), as the PS-1 electronics thinks the the PM output is bad and will damage the boards so it goes into self protect mode.  Sorry I don't know which cap to tell you to get.

Sinclair is correct about the capacitor.  Someone was making them years ago.

What did  you replace the MTH batteries with?

Or, you could purchase a TPC 300 and the PS-1's will work just fine.

The non-polar capacitor fix for PS1's finicky response to modern transformers was developed by a guy named Ed (cannot remember his last name) who posted on the old AOL boards.  I have a few somewhere. Here was the similar fix posted elsewhere.  It worked with both the older Powermaster, and apparently with the CW80.

"Try putting a 100uf 35 volt non polarized capacitor across the transformer cw 80 leads or across the center rail and track ground.. This could alter the sinewave enough to run the MTH engine. To make one from Radio Shack parts, buy 2, 220uf 35 volt capacitors. Solder 2 like leads (2 pluses or 2 minuses) together and insulate.  Using the remaing leads,the assembly becomes a 110 uf non polarized capacitor. People who run TMCC use this for PS1 locos."

The TPC solution works well, but obviously the capacitor, if it works, is a lot cheaper.

Thanks to all for the info.  Fred - I had some rechargables from Amazon that I've used in the past.  I was going to go BCR, but the cost for four versus the ones I already had made it an easy choice.

SWANKO posted:

Thanks to all for the info.  Fred - I had some rechargables from Amazon that I've used in the past.  I was going to go BCR, but the cost for four versus the ones I already had made it an easy choice.

FYI, you can't just any 9V rechargeable.  You have to use a 5 cell 8.4V I believe, which most 9V rechargeable are not.

These are the 8.4 that John recommended in an older thread.  Four pack from Amazon.

D500 posted:

"Or, you could purchase a TPC 300 and the PS-1's will work just fine."

Correct. I have a TPC400 (same architecture) and my PS1's work well (though I seldom use conventional control engines - I have 2 PS1's that work and sound and run so well that I hate to ERR upgrade them!). More speed steps on the TPC, so throttle response will be slower - neither good nor bad, just different - and I seem to recall that the TPC will fire the Protocoupler when the correct CAB-1 keys are pushed, just like a transformer.

TPC will fire the couplers on proto 2 and 3, but not on proto 1.

Landsteiner posted:

The non-polar capacitor fix for PS1's finicky response to modern transformers was developed by a guy named Ed (cannot remember his last name) who posted on the old AOL boards.  I have a few somewhere. Here was the similar fix posted elsewhere.  It worked with both the older Powermaster, and apparently with the CW80.

 

"Try putting a 100uf 35 volt non polarized capacitor across the transformer cw 80 leads or across the center rail and track ground.. This could alter the sinewave enough to run the MTH engine. To make one from Radio Shack parts, buy 2, 220uf 35 volt capacitors. Solder 2 like leads (2 pluses or 2 minuses) together and insulate.  Using the remaing leads,the assembly becomes a 110 uf non polarized capacitor. People who run TMCC use this for PS1 locos."

 

The TPC solution works well, but obviously the capacitor, if it works, is a lot cheaper.

I used this fix years ago.  The Powermaster made some unhappy noises, so some experimentation showed that the capacitor is only required when the PS-1 engine was initializing. Once the loco is running in forward or reverse, the capacitor is no longer needed. To save the powermaster some agony and a possible break down, I put a normally off, momentary contact push button switch in series with the capacitor. Press/hold the button, initialize the loco, start the loco going forward, release the button, and you are good to go. The loco is fine until power has been removed for such a period of time that the loco must be rebooted/initialized again.

Again, the capacitor is only needed while booting up the loco, not while running the loco.

Interesting observation, I never even thought of doing this.

One of the local club members was on the LionTech team that developed TMCC years ago. He has some great stories about things they tried first.

He said that the powermaster was optimized for inductive loads (my words. He probably explained it better) and would be very unhappy with a capacitive load. That's what prompted me to try this.

RoyBoy posted:

Again, the capacitor is only needed while booting up the loco, not while running the loco.

RoyBoy,

Any chance you can post a picture or a schematic of this setup?  I like the idea.

And, as a FWIW, I discovered that if I was running two PS-1 locomotives on the same track with a TMCC Power Master, the sounds would work as well.

Fred

The new Legacy Powermasters and Legacy 360W Powermasters all have the TPC functionality built into the software. So, if you use a Legacy Powermaster or Legacy 360W Powermaster with PS-1 it will work. FWIW, the 360W Powermaster is the replacement for the TPC's (300 and 400). 

The best part about these new PM's is that they receive their signal from the 455KHz track signal, not the 26.75MHz sent from the Cab-1, so they are 100% compatible with the original TMCC 1 base, Base-1L and Legacy Base. 

Hope that helps clear up your issue. (I know, you have to spend more money, but at least it is better than what you are doing now!)

Mike

My PS-1 work great on Power Master.  I think this was only applicable to earlier than 1995 PS-1 and maybe Very first Power Masters.

I use a PM with PH-180 that is from the 98 time frame with my 97 and up PS-1 and I have no issues working it.  Including activating functions.  G

Hey, been away for a few days and didn't have a chance to follow up.  What is the logic behind using two 220 caps and doing the soldering versus just using one 110?  Also, won't I get a short circuit hooking this across the leads or track?

The "logic" was if you had two polarized caps, you can make one non-polarized cap if 1/2 the value by connecting them back-to-back.  They are no better or worse that the single non-polarized cap.

Thanks John.  The key then is the cap has to be non-polarized.  My other question though, won't this cause a short when I bridge the track or terminals?

Nope, not if you don't make a mistake with the wiring.  The cap will just provide some attenuation of sharp edges of chopped waveforms and help with some of the issues of early PS/1 boards and electronically controlled transformers.

GGG posted:

My PS-1 work great on Power Master.  I think this was only applicable to earlier than 1995 PS-1 and maybe Very first Power Masters.

I use a PM with PH-180 that is from the 98 time frame with my 97 and up PS-1 and I have no issues working it.  Including activating functions.  G

I agree. There seem to be several different vintages/firmware of PS-1. Most of them run well on my layout using TPC's for track power, but I have two that absolutely will not run or initialize with the TPC. They will work with a postwar sine wave transformer, though.

I have several PS1 engines I run with the ZWC and PH-180s with no problems.  Also, as pointed out in the ZWC manual, making use of key #9 enables the PS1 engines to function correctly.  Some of the PS1 engines I have changed over to ERR boards for TMCC and RS, and run the remainder as you do conventional.  Yes, would like to change the remainder of PS1 to ERR and have them TMCC with the QSI based sounds left intact...... if there is ever a viable way to do so.  I am aware of the Digital Dynamics made boards, but they are not readily available and not all reliable, I have read before.  I have installed Digital Dynamics in a couple K Line/Lionel diesels and retained the sounds I like in them.  It is the sounds for the various PS1 U.P. turbines I wish to keep and still have TMCC.

That said, I do not believe you have a need for the bridging with caps when you use of the ZWC/180s and key #9 on the cab1.

Jesse    TCA   12-68275

texastrain posted:

..., I do not believe you have a need for the bridging with caps when you use of the ZWC/180s and key #9 on the cab1.

You only need the cap for TMCC PowerMasters, the ones that the Cab-1 remote talks to directly.  Not the TPCs, or command ZWs.

Wellllllll-got my caps from China and hooked two together minus to minus.  I put the positive leads

across the terminals of my powermaster and all I get is the two ding startup and the engine never

goes into forward.  These are 135 powermasters.  I'm guessing my PM's are too old for this solution?

I know this is years old, but I'm having the same problem.  Curious if you ever figured this out with the 135? 

Loochy,

What's the product number for it, e.g. 6-xxxxx?

Mike