MTH's "new" catalogue?

Times change........

I was going throgh old (1995 - 2005) magazines the other day......ALL of the train magazines were well over 100 pages filled with ads for new products. But the market took a  sharp turn and changed greatly.......not a 'end of the hobby' type change......but many of us have all we need now....I know I have more than needed. This has affected what the manufactures can do....much less cash for all new tooling.

Change

Yes many of us already have more than we need. And at my age I'm not buying trains at today's prices.

So the bottom line is, less buyers, less new investments.

My thoughts...............

https://ogrforum.com/t...20#66751584533843920

AMCDave posted:

Times change........

I was going throgh old (1995 - 2005) magazines the other day......ALL of the train magazines were well over 100 pages filled with ads for new products. But the market took a  sharp turn and changed greatly.......not a 'end of the hobby' type change......but many of us have all we need now....I know I have more than needed. This has affected what the manufactures can do....much less cash for all new tooling.

Change

Maybe so, Dave. But like my sons and I who entered the hobby a few years back, presumably, there are other "new" people entering the hobby regularly. I mean, can anyone watch the Polar Express film and not want a toy train? And, when "new" people do enter the hobby, my guess would be that a steamer with whistle steam and passenger cars that talk at you will be more appealing than similar offerings that offer none of these features and, therefore, offer less play value.

MTH says its business card is its entry level RK set. You buy it, love the incredible value and then graduate to its Premier stuff. We did just that. But then when you look at the enormous play value in similar high-end products offered by MTH's main competitor, due to all sorts of innovative operating features that MTH has not kept pace with in its offerings, it's hard to ignore the obvious - if I have a set sum of money to spend on hobby products, it should go to products that offer the most play value. Clearly, MTH knows this simple analysis applies to any expensive purchase, hence, my concern ...

AMCDave posted:

Times change........

... many of us have all we need now....I know I have more than needed. ...

I've been feeling that way for a few years now, and I heard more than a few folks attending York this week expressing the same sentiments during the short few hours I was at York yesterday... one of my shortest visits ever.

The market is definitely changing, but the one thing I like about MTH is they've tried to hold prices at a reasonable level.  Their latest round of articulated locomotives that have caught my eye recently are the just-released Great Northern Z-6 challenger, and the newly catalog'd Great Northern R-2.  These are HIGHLY detailed locomotives, and both carry a $1500 MSRP.  With a good dealer sale, you might be able to find one in the $1250-$1350 range.  Lionel NON-articulated  locomotives are selling for higher than that today , while their articulated locos are carrying $2K+ MSRP's with street prices approaching $1800.  I honestly don't think the market will bear those prices in the long run -- especially for enthusiasts who are already running out of space to run and/or display their trains.

I got a close-up look at Lionel's American Freedom Train T-1 locomotive at their booth yesterday.  And while this is reportedly a "newly tooled" locomotive, I honestly didn't see the detail level I was expecting for a locomotive carrying a $1700 MSRP.  Very disappointed.

So don't count MTH out of the picture yet.  Lionel has definitely garnered good praises for Legacy Railsounds and cool steam features like whistle-steam, but enthusiasts are paying a huge premium for those features.  The Lionel price increases in recent years have been unbelievable, whereas MTH is still providing us product with a reasonably excellent bang for our buck -- generally speaking, especially if you're an operator.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

I got a close-up look at Lionel's American Freedom Train T-1 locomotive at their booth yesterday.  And while this is reportedly a "newly tooled" locomotive, I honestly didn't see the detail level I was expecting for a locomotive carrying a $1700 MSRP.  Very disappointed.

Could be because the prototype lacks much in the way of extrenal plumbing valves etc.

  The Lionel price increases in recent years have been unbelievable, whereas MTH is still providing us product with a reasonably excellent bang for our buck -- generally speaking, especially if you're an operator.

Very true, minimal changes have allowed minimal if at all price increases. There doesn't seem to be the flood of faulty smoke unit threads with MTH releases.

RickO posted:

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

I got a close-up look at Lionel's American Freedom Train T-1 locomotive at their booth yesterday.  And while this is reportedly a "newly tooled" locomotive, I honestly didn't see the detail level I was expecting for a locomotive carrying a $1700 MSRP.  Very disappointed.

Could be because the prototype lacks much in the way of extrenal plumbing valves etc.

  ...

 

Rick, I agree.  But then the locomotive isn't worth the $1700 MSRP price tag.

We are caught in a time of low cost development, no tooling, product reissues, due to the cost of availability of people and manufactures that can retool and engineer these products.

Trying to find a tool shop that even can re-run your existing dies let alone tool up new dies is impossible. Try to acquire cutting time on a 6 axis die cutting machine. Also since the 2008 great recession, try to hire an engineer or designer with some experience... many have left town and are working for more dollars at a larger company with better benefits that they had before.  Couple this with higher shipping cost and its a wonder we still see new catalogs.

The smaller companies are packed with orders and can select on what they run based on profit margins.

Low volume, newly tooled, hand made, and low rate return items are not on the hit list for any of these companies.

 I am targeting items I missed out on during round one of releases during 2000-2010.  I am bracing my wallet for the next round of 21 inch Lionel passenger cars. And I am sure I will need the money when newly tooled locomotives come out in then next few years.

The main competition among the train manufacturers comes from themselves. There is so much new "old" stock in peoples' closets that has never been run and probably never will be. If you can survive without whistle steam and other such recent electronic goodies then you can find brand new, never run engines for about 50% less than the current catalog listings. As the prices continue their inexorable rise, the new "old" stock is much more appealing. And, you may find better components in the older stock. For example, no one , neither MTH nor Lionel uses a Pittman motor to power their engines any more. Why? Too expensive. Yet, all the earlier MTH Premier and many of the high end Lionel locomotives used to proudly advertise that their engines were Pittman powered. At recent train shows you can find rolling stock for $20-40.00, new in the box. Why pay $75-100.00 for a box car or hopper.Even accessories, new in the box are offered at 40-50 per cent of their MSRP. So, with no new tooling to get us excited why not seek out the new "old" stock and save a bunch of money. One of the three major Train stores in Chicago has 5 cases filled with O gauge trains. Two are filled with new trains and the other 3 are filled with new or like new "old" stock. The price differences are striking. With the demographics of the aging Boomer population moving to "Sun City" with no basements or room for a layout more and more of their "coveted" trains will appear on the market. This glut of new "old" trains is the major competitor for both Lionel and MTH. Perhaps, some consolidation in the industry lies ahead.

To underline my point, I recently purchased a brand new MTH Reading T-1 with Proto-2 (3 volt)  and a wireless drawbar from our local train show. Price: $400.00. So, $400 vs $1,700. That's a tough call. NOT!

Yes, nothing new except the paint schemes and higher prices. 

However, do you remember how MTH started? Ordinary model train lovers start businesses all of the time. Mike saw the need for modern equipment built to scale. Korber saw the need for buildings. Ross Custom Switches saw the need for high quality track and turnouts. 

What new product do you want to see?

If you have a good idea make it happen and others will buy it from you. It's not easy (see JDaddys comments) but it can be done. 

There are other parts of the slowing train sales equation. With wages only slowly creeping up and healthcare costs rising as well as college tuition the amount of disposable income has declined over the last 20 years. How many of your friends say they are buying a boat or a cabin in the woods. Not too many in my neighborhood. Demand has slowed even in the restaurant business. So couple rising train prices with less disposable income and you have stagnant sales resulting.

I don't disagree with many of the comments, but we're sort of off-track.  

Whether or not Lionel is charging ridiculous prices, or doesn't put enough detail on its latest engine, and whether or not you can buy NOS for .50 on the dollar is all beside the point.  None of any of this changes the fact that MTH is not keeping pace with its main competitor in terms of play value. Basically, who is working harder for your hobby money?  The guy selling you the same old thing he's been offering for the last umpteen years, or the guy who's introduced new features that makes you want to sell that old version in order to get a new version with a bunch of new features. 

Innovation and change are what drive progress and interest.  Your arguments are a little like saying that you have no interest in buying new technology because you can buy old technology, new-in-box, at a big discount.  Like saying you have no interest in a 2016 Ford that has airbags, ABS, GPS, blue tooth and satellite because the comparable Chevy, which has none of these features, is 20% or 30% less. Or like saying your next new car is going to be a 2006 (identical to what you currently own) that's been sitting unsold for 10 years and that has none of these features mentioned above, simply because it's a lot cheaper.  Even if you say "yep, that's how I feel," you must acknowledge that humanity generally does not approach life that way.  And, this is a perfect segue back to the topic.  MTH realizes people generally want "latest and greatest" and value for their money.  And yet MTH is still, overwhelmingly, selling old tooling.  If MTH is in O gauge for the long-haul, why?

By the way, despite all these points - the believed hobby contraction, the new-old-stock, the lack of Pittman motor, the economy, and anything else that could be generally seen as a negative for the hobby - someone has figured out how to make it work.  Both in terms of play value (with all the new operating features), and perhaps in terms of business model (via BTO).  And, as much as I agree that Lionel's pricing is beyond ridiculous, it seems to be working for them. For me, all it means is that we are just that much more selective in what we purchase. 

You forgot to say "in your opinion."

I am perfectly happy with MTH's offerings lately.  I don't have a lot of these products, so to me, they are new tooling, and so forth.  They obviously have found that what they offers sells to the overall hobbyist, and works for their bottom line.

If your referring to my comment about how humanity functions, it's not opinion.  If it were, television would never have been invented, or if it were, it would still be a giant piece of furniture with a tiny black and white screen. Cars wouldn't ever have new styling or new fun features.  Etc.  

And, while you can do whatever you want with your money, Rocky's comment makes me wonder - why on earth would anyone spend big bucks on something new that's no different than something old that can be bought as "new old stock" for cents on the dollar?  

In any event, all of this has nothing to do with wondering if MTH plans to remain in O gauge, given it isn't keeping pace with its main competitor.

bigtruckpete posted:

Yes, nothing new except the paint schemes and higher prices. 

However, do you remember how MTH started? Ordinary model train lovers start businesses all of the time. Mike saw the need for modern equipment built to scale. Korber saw the need for buildings. Ross Custom Switches saw the need for high quality track and turnouts. 

What new product do you want to see?

If you have a good idea make it happen and others will buy it from you. It's not easy (see JDaddys comments) but it can be done. 

MTH has already made just about every popular American steam, electric and diesel in both scale and traditional size., plus a full line in HO, S, G and Standard.  And lets not forget just about every imaginable piece of rolling stock.   Not much out there remaining IMO..    Fact is mast fans own just a tiny fraction of what MTH has produced over the years .   The problem today?  Folks in the hobby are quickly bored and today seem to want more than this hobby can deliver...

Joe

turbgine posted:

To underline my point, I recently purchased a brand new MTH Reading T-1 with Proto-2 (3 volt)  and a wireless drawbar from our local train show. Price: $400.00. So, $400 vs $1,700. That's a tough call. NOT!

The active secondary market is another big factor affecting the flow of new items.  I am a conventional runner which helps even more. I'd not have a Lionel Big Boy,  a scale PRR Turbine, a PRR S-1 or many others if the only option was new items.....but these are cheap on the used market which is where my money has been going over the past 5 years. 

At least you O Gauge guys get a catalog.  S Gaugers haven't seen a catalog from MTH since 2013, and we're still waiting for the locomotives in that catalog to show up...

Rusty

I agree with EscapeRocks above. MTH still has many more wanted items than I can afford afford in each catalog and I am still playing catch up. Fortunately I got a couple of Lionel diesels before the prices rose above my budget limits. They have now priced me out of buying their new Legacy engines. I have recently ordered quite a few of their Legacy accessories, although I am still waiting for them. Fortunately, MTH is still somewhat more reasonable in their pricing and they always offer a lot more product in my chosen road name so I am good for a while yet. Also, as others have stated here, I have reached the point of having many more items than will fit on my layout and all my storage space if full as well. Maybe it's time for me to to slow down a little anyway. I have been asking myself how many of these things do I really need anyway?

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

PJB posted:

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

 

PJB, with all due respects... you're getting hung up on MTH not "keeping up" with Lionel innovation.  I got some news for ya.... if you read the posts you think are off-topic, what they're really telling you is:  folks are CHOOSING what's important to them given the amount of disposable dollars they have to spend.

If Lionel wants to "innovate", and then try to sell me a new Reading T-1 loco for $1700, they can go pound sand.  It ain't gonna happen.  Many of us are increasingly getting to a point where we have more trains than they'll ever need, use, display... whatever.  The two MTH locomotives I mentioned earlier in this thread that caught my eye recently were steamers that I missed when they were first issued by MTH years ago.  So I'm more than pleased to see MTH re-issue them again.  Would it be nice if they had whistle-steam?  Absolutely.  But if it's gonna add $300-$400 to the price, then I'm fine with the existing specs on the Z-6 in 2016 and the R-2 in 2017.

That's all part of the discussion.

David

I have felt the same way about MTH for the last few years. From visiting hobby shops on my road-trips I got the impression that MTH is too occupied with releasing their DCS Wi-fi offering & has not released much in new products, (except for their Norfolk Southern SD60 rebuilt locomotives) for the last few years. Comparing rolling stock, when I first got into the hobby around 10 years ago I found MTH products to be well-detailed. But then Atlas & recently Lionel have started raising the bar & I stopped buying MTH freight cars around 4 years ago.

For locomotives MTH is the only importer offering scale-wheeled models of modern locomotives & I used to buy them. My 2 most recent locomotive purchases, 3 years apart were both MTH scale-wheeled GE Evolution models. Like others have mentioned in this thread, when I got my first GE ES44AC, I was really impressed since it was my first GE model & it became the best GE model I owned, by default. When I got my GE Evolution Hybrid 2 months ago, I noticed it did not have any significant differences except for the different paint scheme & charging lights. MTH didn’t capture some of the unique features like the grab-handles on the conductor’s side or some details on the front nose. Others on this forum were more disappointed with even more obvious errors as in front door placement. So these models made 3 years apart look identical except for the paint scheme. I was hoping for new or upgraded models in the most recent catalog & when I noticed that they are again offering the GE Evolution with the same features in different paint schemes, I was like, why bother getting another one.

About me - I buy 2-rail models of modern trains & I am in the process of building my first train layout in 2-rail. I also convert 3-rail rolling stock to 2-rail when I cannot find those models in 2-rail. Like others, I have more models than I can currently run & I have become selective in my purchases, but I will still buy more if I see value. Since MTH cannot offer much new, I am considering reserving a Sunset Models SD40.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

PJB posted:

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

 

PJB, with all due respects... you're getting hung up on MTH not "keeping up" with Lionel innovation.  I got some news for ya.... if you read the posts you think are off-topic, what they're really telling you is:  folks are CHOOSING what's important to them given the amount of disposable dollars they have to spend.

If Lionel wants to "innovate", and then try to sell me a new Reading T-1 loco for $1700, they can go pound sand.  It ain't gonna happen.  Many of us are increasingly getting to a point where we have more trains than they'll ever need, use, display... whatever.  The two MTH locomotives I mentioned earlier in this thread that caught my eye recently were steamers that I missed when they were first issued by MTH years ago.  So I'm more than pleased to see MTH re-issue them again.  Would it be nice if they had whistle-steam?  Absolutely.  But if it's gonna add $300-$400 to the price, then I'm fine with the existing specs on the Z-6 in 2016 and the R-2 in 2017.

That's all part of the discussion.

David

David,

Yes, and my point is that people are "buying what's important to them" - and the result is that Lionel is thriving yet MTH appears to be contracting or winding down in terms of O gauge.  Old tooling, no innovation and now, the package deals I mentioned (buy some locomotives and for $100-150 more you can buy a consist of cars) seem to be gone. By the way, I said I found Lionel's pricing to be beyond ridiculous. But that has nothing to do with this topic. I like MTH products, but if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly (thriving companies looking toward a healthy tomorrow do not stagnate or have contraction) this is concerning.  I mean, imagine what the options would look like tomorrow with no MTH!  

Peter

I was happy to see the new Genesis with the wave paint scheme.  Now I'll get a kick out of all the price gougers fading into the sunset.

PJB posted:

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

 

You said, "I mean, is MTH just wringing out every last cent from old tooling before winding down its O gauge segment"    And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

   And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

JC642 posted:

PJB posted:

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

 

You said, "I mean, is MTH just wringing out every last cent from old tooling before winding down its O gauge segment"    And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

I never mentioned pricing scheme, or that MTH should provide similar options at lower prices. My posts are in English... aren't they? 

jonnyspeed posted:

   And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

What is so ridiculous?  Can you identify a  few popular mainstream, not fringe locomotives MTH, Lionel and the others has not already produced?   

joe

MTH was very innovative in the late 90's and early 2000's. The release of DCS, lots of new, scale locos with PS2. They already had a great roster of scale rolling stock.

They were leaving Lionel in the dust. Then Lionel countered with Fastrack, Legacy and a whole bevy of scale rolling stock that one-upped MTH. 

It does seem like MTH has been in a "hunker-down and wait out the storm" sort of mentality for quite a few years now. Wifi / smartphone being the only new items and that is just keeping pace with Lionel.

PJB posted:

JC642 posted:

PJB posted:

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

 

You said, "I mean, is MTH just wringing out every last cent from old tooling before winding down its O gauge segment"    And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

I never mentioned pricing scheme, or that MTH should provide similar options at lower prices. My posts are in English... aren't they? 

You didn't say it, you implied it..  "MTH also used to offer package deals. You could buy certain locomotives and for like $100 or $150 more they would sell it with a consist of cars."   Other than offering whistle steam on its Premier Big Boy, I haven't noticed any new or innovative features in any of its O gauge offerings  (e.g., new steam effects, close coupling, non-flickering passenger car lights, cars with sound effects, etc.) ""

So how do you get the things you want without raising prices? Must be a different type of English.. 

joe

JC642 posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

   And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement.

What is so ridiculous?  Can you identify a  few popular mainstream, not fringe locomotives MTH, Lionel and the others has not already produced?   

joe

Joe,

I don’t know you & I am not sure which era you model but I buy models of modern trains & there are models MTH has neither made nor upgraded for many years. Some that I can think of are EMD SD70MAC, MPI commuter locomotives, scale auto-racks (no their current offerings don’t count as they are not to scale) & there are other companies that make auto racks that are different from the ones Lionel & Atlas offers, Trinity 3250 cu.ft. covered hoppers.

These models I mentioned are not obscure steam-era models either. Many railroads ordered them, inherited & they are still in service. So many possible road names.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Here are some images I found online of popular models that MTH hasn’t offered or upgraded

SD70MAC

MPI MP36

Greenbrier Auto-Max

Greenbrier Multi-Max

Greenbrier / Trinity 3250 cu.ft hopper

graz posted:

MTH was very innovative in the late 90's and early 2000's. The release of DCS, lots of new, scale locos with PS2. They already had a great roster of scale rolling stock.

They were leaving Lionel in the dust. Then Lionel countered with Fastrack, Legacy and a whole bevy of scale rolling stock that one-upped MTH. 

It does seem like MTH has been in a "hunker-down and wait out the storm" sort of mentality for quite a few years now. Wifi / smartphone being the only new items and that is just keeping pace with Lionel.

 

Graz,

Well stated. The timing of their most recent significant model release, the Norfolk Southern, SD60E seemed like they were trying to catch-up when Lionel announced them first in their catalog & MTH was forced to reveal their plans months before the MTH catalog release.

But I have to admit that I don’t follow MTH RailKing offerings or MTH Premier Steam offerings & I don’t know if MTH made any upgrades to either of those product lines. So my observations & conclusions could significantly differ from hobbyists who buy Railking or Premier Steam models.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

naveenrajan posted:

Here are some images I found online of popular models that MTH hasn’t offered or upgraded

SD70MAC

 

Not sure if you're talking about the engine or the road name, but I believe MTH did a SD70mac in P-2.

joe

JC642 posted:

PJB posted:

JC642 posted:

PJB posted:

Every comment from JC642 down is discussing a topic that has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. Guys - did anyone actually read the OP???  

 

You said, "I mean, is MTH just wringing out every last cent from old tooling before winding down its O gauge segment"    And I said, over the years MTH has made nearly every popular item and then some.   What you seem to want is the newest Lionel features at MTH prices?

joe  

I never mentioned pricing scheme, or that MTH should provide similar options at lower prices. My posts are in English... aren't they? 

You didn't say it, you implied it..  "MTH also used to offer package deals. You could buy certain locomotives and for like $100 or $150 more they would sell it with a consist of cars."   Other than offering whistle steam on its Premier Big Boy, I haven't noticed any new or innovative features in any of its O gauge offerings  (e.g., new steam effects, close coupling, non-flickering passenger car lights, cars with sound effects, etc.) ""

So how do you get the things you want without raising prices? Must be a different type of English.. 

joe

Yes, must be. In "Barney" terms in the English I speak, "MTH wringing out every last cent" was a clear reference to profit - MTH issuing and reissuing models from the same tooling, hence, using the same sunk R&D cost in order to expand profit margin. But feel free to continue on a contrived detour...

graz posted:

MTH was very innovative in the late 90's and early 2000's. The release of DCS, lots of new, scale locos with PS2. They already had a great roster of scale rolling stock.

They were leaving Lionel in the dust. Then Lionel countered with Fastrack, Legacy and a whole bevy of scale rolling stock that one-upped MTH. 

It does seem like MTH has been in a "hunker-down and wait out the storm" sort of mentality for quite a few years now. Wifi / smartphone being the only new items and that is just keeping pace with Lionel.

 

Graz - yes, this is the exact point I was trying to make in my OP - it seems like MTH went from leader and innovator to a backseat role.  And again, my concern (hoping for other opinions, although most everyone on this thread seems to want to discuss another topic with which they have a gripe) was that this is signaling MTH's possible exit from O gauge, which is Concerning to me as I like MTH products and, more importantly, I like the competition, which pushes everyone's product offerings to a higher level.  

Thanks

Peter

Catalog is the US spelling.

Catalogue would be the European spelling. You must be talking about the repeating European line.

The US catalog line at least has new paint schemes and a few new variations.

The paint scheme for the Santa Fe auto carrier looks wrong.

The big Kansas City Southern scheme is needed on the Premier Auto Carriers.

Andrew

Their auto carriers now have the Multi-Max panels on the side, but are not exact replicas of the Multi-Max.

Do you need or want exact O scale models of the Greenbrier Multi-Max auto carriers?

Can MTH make an O scale model of the Multi-Max with opening doors and decks to load automobiles and trucks?

Others and I have a large collections and like others are very content with what we have, the MTH catalog was disappointing. I will get a few cars but that is it.  Lionel got most of the biz this year. and that was mostly cars and one Lion plus engine.  I am retired now and do not have the discretionary income like before what I do have will be spent on traveling with my lovely wife around this old world.

Now a word or two for the hobby dealers.  

1. Get into the repair biz ASAP, guys like me are going to need parts and repair guys.

2. start selling drones!

train guys and ladies.

1. don't panic, your used trains will sell better as long as they keep raising the prices.

2. Keep calm and carry on and run the wheels off of what you got!