MTH/WILLIAMS/LIONEL Quality?

Some great points made above... I've got everything except MTH - just scared of it, I think, based on lots of threads over a couple of sites, lol. Funny thing is, I received a small K-line Plymouth switcher in a fave paint scheme, not thinking much past the paint. Turns out, it's one of my favorite engines. Runs at scale speeds, smokes at the top end a little too well, has great detail and lighting system, comes w/scale and O gauge front coupler. Paid a bit over $100 for it. Quality is, indeed, in the eye of the beholder. I just love trains, plain and simple.

In my experience, Williams and Williams by Bachman are the most reliable.  Their simplicity allows reliability and value.  You lose some detail, although Bachman recently improving this.  You lose some sound features and of course Williams are only conventional.  I like the passenger locomotives such as E-7's and F-3's.  I do not have very many freight locomotives from Williams, I do not care for the stamped handrails.  Their new GP-30 has scale handrails but roadnames are limited to the past for now.  Time for a CSX GP-30!  My Williams locomotives run a lot, and I am 100% confident in them each time whether 25 years old or new.

I have many MTH locomotives that run reliably and have had no issues.  My Premier Amtrak E-8 set is amazing.  MTH F40PH's, P-32's, and Genesis units have worked flawlessly for me.  Some of their early Proto-1 locos have been turned into non powered units on my layout.  Yet I have 5 very early MTH locomotives 3 with proto-1 and 2 with simple QSI boards that work just fine.  I have only had three faulty MTH products in recent years.  2 TurboTrain sets which are described in another thread, and an SD70 that had overheating issues and was returned to the dealer in a trade for a P-32 that has been flawless.   Odds are an MTH will be fine for you.  Most trains can be repaired by a good service station dealer IF you encounter trouble.  Exception being the TurboTrain which is an unusual item.  Dealing with MTH main offices is generally awful.  They seem to disregard customer support and in my case flat out ignored a letter I sent to Mike Wolf (certified mail).  

Lionel, I have only had two times I have needed service on Lionel products.  One was the original HHP-8 set.  But Lionel was helpful and corrected this situation.  Thanks to Mike Reagan on that.  Another locomotive I bought used is currently over at Mercer Junction for some attention.   

Ford vs Chevy? Dunno - never owned either of them. I would have to explain it to

my Dodge. I've owned a Porsche, Audi, Volvo and TR-6 over the years - THOSE are

memories that I do NOT want to re-visit.

In my opinion the term "quality" will always be defined by the buyer and/or enthusiast of the product made. Simply put a "quality" product will exceed the expectations of the buyer and continue to please the buyer/owner for as many years as that person defines within themselves. Most everyone that is asked about most of the postwar Lionel product will agree that they were indeed "quality" products based upon the standards above. Many of us buy old postwar items and either run them right away or clean/do a minor repair and then run them.......50+ years after they were made.

Will a Lionel Legacy item do that? I am not sure but my bet based on my experience is no.

MTH? Again, likely no...at least on the electronics....the rest maybe?

Williams? Likely yes.

K-Line? Closer to MTH? Maybe better?

Now, add in details that we want today along with all of the new gizmos and our recent expectations become something of hoping it works new out of the box....or least only minimal repairs are needed. Those issues are the opposite of "quality" in my opinion.

I certainly can't think of modern toy trains as having "over-thought plumbing."  Again, "simple" locos may have littleinside them  to fail, but they have little inside - not all the good features, etc. and so from my perspective they  are obsolete before they leave the box as far as I am concerned - no cruise, no really good low speed control, and no sound.

I have several WBB locos, all so basic that the only one I run much is a steamer I converted to cruise and sound, and ending up installing my own "separately applied parts" to make it look good.  Cost as much as just buying Legacy in the end, but its a sweet little loco now, but hardly WBB anymore.  I'd rather pay for the modern stuff up front: at least in the Premier and Legacy versions, quality and durability seem outstanding.  I don't have much experience but I would expect Imperial to be the same. 

PRODUCT QUALITY:

The group of features and characteristics of a saleable good which determine its desirability and which can be controlled by a manufacturer to meet certain basic requirements. Most businesses that produce goods for sale have a product quality or assurance department that monitors outgoing products for consumer acceptability.

Read more: http://www.businessdictionary....y.html#ixzz3Ilmg3lA7

Thus, Consumer Acceptability?

All that 'over-thunk' plumbing was the main draw for me to re-enter the hobby a few years ago. So far all my drains are flowing freely, no sign of any blockages. Most of the plumbing is fairly new with some construction still underway. Engineers are still hard at work 'over-thinking' new design features that can be added to the layout.

The quote by Montgomery Scott is not about plumbing. The United Star Ship (USS) Excelsior was the new ship of the United Federation of Planets. Kirk and crew were off in the old Enterprise to rescue Spock. The Enterprise was not fast enough to outrun Excelsior so Scotty (Montgomery Scott) sabotaged the Excelsior's transwarp computer by removing components.  Scotty handed the components to Dr. McCoy as one sergeon to another saying "The more they over-think the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain".

It was a cute way of wrapping up the fallacy of computers, electronics and a bit of Murphy's law all into one quote. 

A little more about Williams, their quality is good but their getting the model and prototype correct on diesel engines is very low. Examples; Reading Lines GP-9 & GP-38, as Reading Lines never had a GP-9 or a GP-38. Reading Lines had GP-7's and GP-30, GP-35, and GP-39-2. The other current bad example is the Norfolk Southern SD-70ACe's done in N.S. heritage paint job, WBB is using SD-90's for the N.S. heritage diesels.

I bought a Norflok Southern Heritage SD-70ACe diesel engine in Reading Lines from MTH because I like MTH command control.

I might have bought it from Lionel if I had the Legacy set-up but I already have the MTH DCS set-up.

Lee Fritz