multiple powermastes

Right

One Powerhouse for each Powermaster for each Loop!

Track 1, Track 3, Track 4, etc.

Daisy Chain the U to each Powermaster is Fine

What type of powermasters?  Original, or more recent?

Reason I ask is the very first powermaster did not require a command base to talk to the CAB-1 (the CAB-1 and PM were released before the command base was available).

So if you have the original 135 watt powermasters, you may not need a command base at all if you only intend to run conventional engines.

-Dave

I plan to use the newer powermasters.  I am about to build a large layout with sections of track

hidden under scenery.  I have read enough about possible problems with command control  signal

issues that i want to be able to switch those loops to conventional control if any issues do occur

JJ posted:

I plan to use the newer powermasters.  I am about to build a large layout with sections of track

hidden under scenery.  I have read enough about possible problems with command control  signal

issues that i want to be able to switch those loops to conventional control if any issues do occur

You need to define your scenario for exactly what you mean by "switch to conventional control" to figure out how this will work.

With the outer rails connected together for the case where you actually were wanting the command signal to go to all tracks, that means all loops will see the TMCC signal whether you are conventionally controlling the voltage or not.  If you have a command engine on a loop that sees a TMCC signal, you will not be able to move it conventionally (then again, in this scenario, it's working fine, so maybe that is not your concern ).  What you choose for power supply can also impact this. 

If you use the ZW, the command signal on the common will travel through the ZW to hit all 4 outputs, whether you want it to or not.  I learned this many years ago... I had 3 loops.  Two were inter-connected via crossovers, and voltage controllable by a powermaster (fed by a PW ZW), so I could run 2 TMCC engines on these loops as long as I didn't exceed the capability of the PowerMaster.  The third outer loop was "independent" (at least in my mind ).  While I did not intentionally hook the command base to that loop, the transformer acted as the path for the TMCC signal.  I could run true conventional  trains on that loop with the ZW handle, but anything TMCC would not move just with ZW handle control because it saw the signal (I was fine in TMCC mode once I realized this though).

In close proximity, there is a chance the TMCC or Legacy signal may bee seen by the tracks even if you didn't hook all the outer rails together.  You don't want to intentionally skip connecting the outer rails if you are going for TMCC control on all loops, but you may not be able to isolate TMCC away from a given loop either.

-Dave

I also dedicate one powerhouse to each powermaster.

If you are simply running track under scenery you should be ok with the signal. The problem arises when one runs track underneath other track. The signal from the elevated track mixes with that of the lower track increases the signal frequency and confuses the locomotive. You will know you have an issue if the locomotive stops and the front light starts blinking.

Running a ground plane under the elevated track connected to earth ground stops the signal from propagating below the track. Some use aluminum or copper sheets. Others simply lay wire (coated or un-coated) along side of the track.

I have heard of issues running through metal bridges but again connecting the bridge to earth ground solved this.

There is article written by the NJ HiRailers in Patterson about this issue and how they solved it however I can not remember which OGR issue it was in. It was at least 5 years ago.

Joe

Also, the situation Joe describes can come to be an issue if the scenery may involve screening (like if you use screening as your base for the surface of a mountain before you plaster/paint/etc.).

-Dave

Thanks for the replys

I am confused by one statement from Dave "If you have a command engine on a loop that sees a TMCC signal, you will not be able to move it conventionally"  

If the switch on the engine is set to CONV I would assume it ignores TMCC signals altogether and runs on variable voltage- 

Sorry if I am not quite understanding this,

Dave45681 posted:

Also, the situation Joe describes can come to be an issue if the scenery may involve screening (like if you use screening as your base for the surface of a mountain before you plaster/paint/etc.).

-Dave

Thanks Dave - I forgot about that one
Joe

JJ posted:

Thanks for the replys

I am confused by one statement from Dave "If you have a command engine on a loop that sees a TMCC signal, you will not be able to move it conventionally"  

If the switch on the engine is set to CONV I would assume it ignores TMCC signals altogether and runs on variable voltage- 

Sorry if I am not quite understanding this,

Most engines have a switch that is called program/run.  In command it's what it says, one direction to re-program the ID number, one direction to run once programmed with the ID # you chose.  In conventional operation (no command base present), it works like an old e-unit lockout.  Run lets the engine cycle through directions(i.e., hitting direction or dropping voltage momentarily causes Fwd-Neutral-Rev-Neutral-Fwd cycling), setting it the other way will lock it in one direction (see a manual for more explanation of details).

There is no "Conventional/Command" switch on a command controlled engine I don't think.

Powermasters (old ones at least, I don't have a new Legacy one) have a Command/Conventional switch, but that is for how the Powermaster behaves, it has nothing to do with the engine behavior(same is true for the ZW-L transformer).  i.e., if you set it to Command, the voltage provided will automatically go to full, thereby eliminating the voltage control feature (though halt will still work to kill the power).  If you set it to Conventional, you control the voltage the Powermaster (or ZW-L) provides by spinning the knob.

TMCC or Legacy engines will "see" the command signal either way, and will not move until addressed via the remote by engine ID # and told to start up, move throttle, change direction etc.

-Dave

Well what I found out is a warning in the instruction manual of a TMCC engine. It says to run in conventional mode a Command Base must not be anywhere in the area even if it's not connected to the track. If a command base is detected it will default the engine to command mode.  So I guess the lesson here is to have a loop of track dedicated for conventional mode and a loop of track for command modes I can only run non-TMCC engines on the conventional loop

Thank you all for the insight

I run three main lines and I use a power master for each one only because I occasionally want to run an old postwar locomotive.  Otherwise it's all command all the time.  But it is nice to have the option of running any engine on any line.  RICH

JJ, 

You will not need a Powerhouse for each Powermaster, cables that will split power from a Powerhouse to two separate Powermasters can be made or purchased, they are listed on the auction site. If you run locomotives with can motors there will be no problem with having enough power to run them.

Ray

JJ posted:

Well what I found out is a warning in the instruction manual of a TMCC engine. It says to run in conventional mode a Command Base must not be anywhere in the area even if it's not connected to the track. If a command base is detected it will default the engine to command mode.  So I guess the lesson here is to have a loop of track dedicated for conventional mode and a loop of track for command modes I can only run non-TMCC engines on the conventional loop

Thank you all for the insight

JJ - are you positive about this?

The powermasters (I have Legacy powermasters - maybe the old TMCC powermasters are different????) have a slide switch on them that allows either command control or conventional control. One can run TMCC/Legacy both ways on each power district. Which powermaster design are you using - TMCC or Legacy?

I have a couple of conventional locos mostly bought for tour runs to schools and such but I do run them on my layout. When I set up a power district (powermaster controlled track) for conventional I just need to make sure the engines I don't want to run are not on the track because in conventional mode any engine in that power district will turn on and move.

When I was using TPC400's it was a pain to switch them form command control to conventional control so I wired a high amp toggle switch in line from transformer power to the TPC (which I left in command control) and straight to track. When I wanted to run conventional I set the toggle switch to straight to track which took the TPC out of the loop. You could do this with the powermasters but again it would overkill since the powermasters have a simple slide switch.

Joe

Joe Fauty posted:

JJ posted:

Well what I found out is a warning in the instruction manual of a TMCC engine. It says to run in conventional mode a Command Base must not be anywhere in the area even if it's not connected to the track. If a command base is detected it will default the engine to command mode.  So I guess the lesson here is to have a loop of track dedicated for conventional mode and a loop of track for command modes I can only run non-TMCC engines on the conventional loop

Thank you all for the insight

JJ - are you positive about this?

The powermasters (I have Legacy powermasters - maybe the old TMCC powermasters are different????) have a slide switch on them that allows either command control or conventional control. One can run TMCC/Legacy both ways on each power district. Which powermaster design are you using - TMCC or Legacy?

I have a couple of conventional locos mostly bought for tour runs to schools and such but I do run them on my layout. When I set up a power district (powermaster controlled track) for conventional I just need to make sure the engines I don't want to run are not on the track because in conventional mode any engine in that power district will turn on and move.

When I was using TPC400's it was a pain to switch them form command control to conventional control so I wired a high amp toggle switch in line from transformer power to the TPC (which I left in command control) and straight to track. When I wanted to run conventional I set the toggle switch to straight to track which took the TPC out of the loop. You could do this with the powermasters but again it would overkill since the powermasters have a simple slide switch.

Joe

I think he is referring to a TMCC/Legacy engine detecting the signal possibly from the base without it being wired to the track.

I believe you are referring to the Powermaster switch for either the varying track output voltage or it being set to fixed voltage in/out. In either setting the TMCC/Legacy signal is still flowing thru the PM.

Joe I believe you had no problem because you were running  a non TMCC engine

The following is from the manual for a Legacy NW2

For Conventional operation, a Command Base must not be powered up anywhere in the area, even if it is not connected to the track. If a base is detected, your locomotive will default to Command mode

So the issue pertains to the engine not the powermasters

Wow - new one on me

Rayin"S" posted:

JJ, 

You will not need a Powerhouse for each Powermaster, cables that will split power from a Powerhouse to two separate Powermasters can be made or purchased, they are listed on the auction site. If you run locomotives with can motors there will be no problem with having enough power to run them.

Ray

Hello Rayin"S".....can you please be more specific, ie... What auction site are you referring to?... or if possible, do you have a part number for the splitter. I have spent the better part of a couple of hours looking at electronic component sites, Lionel and others, and searching eBay for such a splitter, and nothing I have found "looks right" for what I need.

I have a conventional loop and a command loop (legacy 990 w/180 PH and PM on one, and a conventional loop powered by the same Powerhouse (or CW80), but I have to move the Lionel CTC clip from one loop to the other, and flip the CMD/CONV switch on the PM to go from command on one loop to conventional on the other. I'd like to have 1 PH connected to 2 PM's, all controlled by the Legacy remote. Is that possible???

Lion

Make your own.  Mating pins are on the bottom of each product page.

Molex 0003092032 CONN PLUG 3POS .093

Molex 03-09-1032 CONN RECEPTACLE 3POS .093

Joe Fauty posted:

Wow - new one on me

You'd be surprised how far the signal travels from a TMCC/Legacy layout to a conventional one nearby!

I've had a layout Legacy signal migrate to a test bench at least 10 feet away and keep a locomotive in TMCC mode when trying to test in conventional mode.  Turn off the layout base and all was well.

GRJ,

You're the best! I'm a big "Zero" when it comes to electronics. Go Figure...I work with it every day...I'm an Air Traffic Controller, but I just key the mike and blabber    Thanks for the details and the encouragement, I'll give it a try!

I'll take electrical engineering over Air Traffic Controller any day of the week!  You guys have a heavy load on your shoulders, I have all the respect in the world for the job you do.  When I screw up, I get smoke and a few cooked IC's, when you screw up...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'll take electrical engineering over Air Traffic Controller any day of the week!  You guys have a heavy load on your shoulders, I have all the respect in the world for the job you do.  When I screw up, I get smoke and a few cooked IC's, when you screw up...

Yea...smoke is not good in my business :0...thanks again, product ordered.

Update: Got my package from DigiKey this afternoon ... and thanks to Rayin'S' and GRJ for encouragement, for under $10, I have my 2 loop layout running on a single PH180 and dual PM's (one conventional/one Command). Took me about an hour and a half to put the splitter together...1 hour scratching my chin, and 30 minutes to piece it together...shrink tubing is a gift from GOD.  Thank you all,

Lion

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Make your own.  Mating pins are on the bottom of each product page.

Molex 0003092032 CONN PLUG 3POS .093

Molex 03-09-1032 CONN RECEPTACLE 3POS .093

  Do you happen to have a pinout diagram for these John, or Lion L?   I’d like to make up my own auto fused style cord from an old KW to a powermaster.  The going rate of $20 for a Lionel 12893 transformer to powermaster cord seems steep.  

  Sorry to squawk 7500 on your post Lion L 226E, but this seemed like the most pertinent thread going on. 

P.S. Can I have direct to the marker next time I’m in Minnie?

FlyPlanes-PlayTrains posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Make your own.  Mating pins are on the bottom of each product page.

Molex 0003092032 CONN PLUG 3POS .093

Molex 03-09-1032 CONN RECEPTACLE 3POS .093

  Do you happen to have a pinout diagram for these John, or Lion L?   I’d like to make up my own auto fused style cord from an old KW to a powermaster.  The going rate of $20 for a Lionel 12893 transformer to powermaster cord seems steep.  

  Sorry to squawk 7500 on your post Lion L 226E, but this seemed like the most pertinent thread going on. 

P.S. Can I have direct to the marker next time I’m in Minnie?

Fly,

I'm sure GRJ will have the correct answer. For me, I noticed the hole nearest the "pointy end" (please excuse technical jargon) of the Molex connector was empty. So I  hooked up to my "power source" per Powermaster instructions pg. 9, lines 1&2. I assumed the term "power source" would apply to "brick" or traditional transformer. My splitter seems to work perfectly.

Lion

That’s I think what had me the most confused...the open hole at the pointy end.

  Looking at page 9, it appears the middle hole is common, and the bottom (farthest from pointy end) is hot.  Is this how your have yours configured? 

Thanks!

Tom

FlyPlanes-PlayTrains posted:

That’s I think what had me the most confused...the open hole at the pointy end.

  Looking at page 9, it appears the middle hole is common, and the bottom (farthest from pointy end) is hot.  Is this how your have yours configured? 

Thanks!

Tom

Yes,  the fused line of the power adapter cord (Powerhouse) goes to terminal(s) A,B,C or "D".   The line with no fuse in the goes to my center rail from the "U" terminal.  The hole on the "pointy end" is empty (see fig 5 Pg.8)  That's the way I read it, and everything works great.  Since the Powerhouse has a built in circuit breaker, any issues/shorts shuts off all power to both tracks.

The main difference with my set up, is that I built a molex splitter (with Digikey products recommended by GRJ), to divide the Powerhouse out put to supply 2 Powermasters. In this configuration, I have one Powermaster set up for conventional operations, and the other Powermaster supplies power for my Command Control loop. My Legacy Command Control system remote runs both loops, allowing me to address the track power on the "conventional" loop, and address the TMCC locomotive on the "Command" loop. Switching back and forth between the to is a breeze.

As to cost, The Digi-Key Molex parts are pennies. I grabbed a dozen of the pins/recievers each, and 6 of the male plastic plugs, and a dozen female receivers, paid shipping, and received all the parts for my project in 3 days at my front door! Total cost, under $15.

Regards,

Lionel 226E

Disclaimer:  Pretty much everything I just said, I've learned on this site, from some pretty generous participants. They are the experts...what preceded has been the result of my good fortune