My decision to go 3 rail over 2 rail

If the 3rd rail doesn't bother you enough to go to 2-rail, it will be a lot easier to work with 3-rail.  2-rail also seems to really want much wider curves, so room is also a factor.

Regarding curves, no really

I am running 042 (diameter) fix couples without a issue.

I saw your details level, so IMO 2 rails will be rewarding.

Andre.

I sure understand were your coming from. I to have been in the process of deciding for my new layout if it will be 2R or 3R. I like the options with 2R but issue is the curves. New layout will have a helix and not sure if a 3 degree incline will work with 2R. The max curve I can run is 081 maybe a little bigger if I use flex track, but not sure what is the 2R equivalent is.  It would be nice could find someone in my area that runs 2R that I could meet face to face so I could pick their brains.

Once you make up your mind, there is absolutely no need for you to justify or rationalize your decision.  There is even less need for us to validate it.  If you do not really mind that center rail, those wheels, and maybe those giant couplers, you are making the right decision.

I am reminded of some of the spectacular 3-rail layouts that grace this forum from time to time - the only thing that spoils the illusion, for me, is the track.  You are lucky it does not spoil your view.  Press onward.

3 rail is 50% more fun.

At least with 3-rail you can get anything you want, 2-rail is usually limited

I modeled HO from '69 until 3 years ago.  Switched to O gauge and I don't even notice the third rail.  Of course my eyes aren't what they used to be either.  ;-)

I don't think that's true. I have been finding a lot in 2R. It just depends on what your modeling.

Not true.  By a long shot.  It's out there.

I'm with bob2 on this-no need to explain or justify to us.  Do what you enjoy.

Best of both worlds would be 3R loop and a 2R loop.  Then you can run whatever....

Or you could wire the track to do both as I believe a couple of forum members have done or go Bobs route with Battery and RC control. 

Bob2

For me its just a couple of issues that I need to work out especially with the helix. If its a bridge to far then so be it and I stay 3RS. So if there are any 2Rs in the Tampa bay area my E-Mail is in my profile. Feel free to email me.

I've seen a lot of beautiful 2 rail engines. But, for my money, I have yet to meet an engine that gives me more overall satisfaction and enjoyment than Lionel Vision Line engines with the 990 Command and Control system.

And, I'm not a big fan of how Lionel runs its company, although they have a great R&D division.

JohnJr

Everybody has to find their "Happy Place" in model railroading. Whether it's Mickey Mouse boxcars being pulled by Thomas the Tank Engine, or counting rivets on their scratch-built GP17-2c they've been building for 10 years, or somewhere in between.

Hopefully, you have found your "Happy Place"!

Best of luck!

I am converting 3R models I want to 2R, so in effect I have access to even more product because I can choose from 2R AND 3R models. If you are willing to learn some skills and put the time in conversions aren't that bad.

I struggled with 3R or 2R for a long time, but for me I just couldn't take the 3rd rail anymore. I had done the 3R think for decades from semi-scale toy trains to 3RS scale models. Not trying to be a downer, but you will find that there are issues with any decision you make. Example: You like ScaleTraxx. It is a nice looking track for sure, but it can be in very difficult to find. Especially #4 and #6 turnouts. There are issues with the turnouts shorting too. If you want to run DCS and Legacy, you have to run both systems and you can't consist engines of different systems. Etc...

I'm not trying to be negative, but just to point out that there are bumps in the road either way you go. My advice would be to sit back and envision what you want to have in the end. What do you really like, and really dislike? That should point you in the right direction. No matter which way you go, have fun!

He already decided.

Some folks like the looks of three rail track.  It is a hobby, and not meant to be taken terribly seriously.

 "Let me know if I'm not making sense with my thought process. Let me also say that I prefer the look of 2 rail track and scale wheels and mainly run modern small to large diesels and a few steam."

    It 's a decision you'll have to make but some of your 2 rail perceptions are not correct. Modeling in 2 rail O has more in common with HO modeling than it does with 3 rail modeling. Think DCC instead of DCS or Lionel and think scale flextrack instead of MTH track. Most 2 rail O layouts have zero MTH or Lionel equipment, a few might have converted scale cars but that's a fairly new trend as scale cars were hard to find in 3 rail for decades. For signaling read up on how the HO guys do it ,same for reverse loops. There's no reason you couldn't build a 2 rail layout if you want but it will take some more study and wider curves than a typical 3 rail scale layout( say 46 inch minimum radius which would be O-92 diameter  if that exists). Funding a scale layout can be done by selling 3 rail equipment and buying 2 rail on ebay, decent 2 rail freight cars sell for $20 to $30 dollars fairly regularly. If I had to make the decision I'd first make a plan of my layout space and see if I could fit a track plan I like in there using the broader curves that suit 2 rail equipment. If not then make a plan using 36 inch radius and 3 rail scale equipment and see if it's substantially more attractive? If either will fit then you have to decide if the 3rd rail bothers you or if it makes you more comfortable.....DaveB

Hello Mark and welcome to the dark side, why the dark side?  it is because there are very few rules a very unruly crowd to say the least. Controlled chaotic indulgence with the one and only thing that is necessary and that is to have fun. A lot of fun.

 "New layout will have a helix and not sure if a 3 degree incline will work with 2R. The max curve I can run is 081 maybe a little bigger if I use flex track, but not sure what is the 2R equivalent is"  

    Two rail uses radius to describe the curves instead of diameter so O-81 would be about 40 inch radius which is a decent radius for smaller 2 rail locos and 40 or 50 foot cars. 46 inch radius or about O-92 would allow a bit larger equipment. I had a 2 rail layout with 46 inch radius curves and diesels and freight cars ran fine on it, I doubt that long wheel base steam locos could have though. A helix with 3% grade is pretty steep so you'd have to stick to short trains or put a helper loco on the rear. 2% is more commonly used by scale modelers and maybe 2.5% if necessary. The sharper the helix curves the more the grade will affect train length. Sometimes it's possible to design a grade connecting two levels with a longer ramp or round the room grade and eliminate the tight helix curves so that's something else to consider if you really want to try 2 rail. As the rolling stock and scenery get more scale like and detailed the amount of track needed can be less so you might not even need a full twin deck layout to fit in everything you'd want? A room plan drawn to scale  and some experimentation with what could fit in there would be the place to start, and maybe it would make the decision clearer .DaveB

been in three rail so long, it looks more realistic to me than 2 rail!

I think all the OP's reasons are erroneous, but that's ok since they make him feel good.

Example 1:  how can having two control systems be an advantage?  2-rail is superior with its standardized DCC.  

Example 2:  handlaid 2-rail track is much better than scaletrax.

If curves are the limitation to a two rail layout, the alternative would be a switching diorama with limited curves.  Even an engine facility with TT could be done with limited curves. IMO.  My layout is three rail, little incentive to change.

Edit Add: July 14, 2015.  I have always been puzzled, about the number of people in the hobby who don't have a layout.  There seems to be a lot of good intent, but lack of space/lumber/and hardware toward the layout. Perspective is from the Fort Pitt High Railer group, which I'm a member.   Any layout, two or three rail, any scale, is a huge step, have fun.   Best wishes, Mike CT 

 One of the reasons I considering 2R. DCC, one system for all.  At least I can run PS3 with DCC. In some ways I am tired of having to own two completely different systems to run trains. At least I can run TMCC/Legacy from my DCS remote.

Andre,

I do believe that you are 100% correct in your assumption. Just because Marc stated,"Your thoughts, and comments are appreciated". I'm sure it was not intended to be a open invitation for negativism. Once again, tis my opinion.  

You might want to consider Gargraves or Atlas track.  If you want a lot of signaling and operating accessories it easy very easy to do with those track systems as the two outside rails are not connected.  Power and ground to the center and one outside rail and use the other rail as the ground for your signals.

 Personally I having been doing this for over 70 years so when I look at real railroad track I notice they forgot the third rail and it doesn't look right to me!

Al

Call me old school, but if it were me I should would research this very well in terms of equipment selection and cost.

I live in both worlds and am very happy that way.  I run three rail equipment at my railroad club and am working on a two rail layout at home.  For me, the scale(ish) couplers, the lower track profile and the smaller flanges make all the difference in the world. 

OK, Lets see...

Scaletrax... I LOVE It. Small properly shaped rails work for me. the outer rails are not connected to each other so signaling using isolated sections is easy.

Downsides: Switch availability is tight but I heard it is coming along now.

Switches shorting, the fix is is on this forum and the new ones should have it in them from the factory, that's why they stopped production.

2R VS 3RS

smaller wheels/flanges available on both, smaller couplers available on both. Scale cars / engines available on both, No issue there.

2R only; Turn around loops = wiring hassles. Command Control DCC - not very familiar but what I have seen pales in comparison to DCS or Legacy for sounds and control. Also seems you have to plug into the system, no wireless remotes.

Newer systems may have overcome this and the limited number of commands issue.

DCS giving feedback from the engine is far superior to me.

3R only: most equipment is not scale, most track is not rail shaped and is HUGE.

Massive availability of all types of equipment if not always scale or super detailed.

You pay your money and pay your game.

Bottom line is still: HAVE FUN

I like the look in three rail and the curved tracks are smaller. I use about 30% 027 track and about 50% Gargraves and the rest O gauge 031 & 042 curves.

Don't have the space for most two rail stuff.

I grew up with three rail O gauge track, 031 curves and post war 022 switches.

Although my two rail American Flyer does look better as far as track goes, but I am not that into A. F. or S scale.

I have some H.O. train stuff but might sell it off because of not having much space anymore. I will keep my H.O. race cars as some are from the mid 1960's.

Lee Fritz

Russell wrote:

2R only; Turn around loops = wiring hassles. Command Control DCC - not very familiar but what I have seen pales in comparison to DCS or Legacy for sounds and control. Also seems you have to plug into the system, no wireless remotes.

Just so that readers of this thread know the truth, every one of the above statements about 2-rail O-scale are false.  We 3-railers can only dream of having the sound choices that are available for 2-rail DCC trains.  Return loops are handled by a "black box" that you don't even realize is there.  Wireless remotes are common and are much smaller and easier to handle than the huge TMCC, DCS and Legacy remotes we have.

From what I have learned going 2 rail will limit you somewhat in terms of equipment choices unless you have the room to provide the larger 2 rail locomotives with the curves required.  That to me is the limiting factor.  

3 rail folks mention 072 often when in reality this is a fairly tight curve  in the 2 rail world. As far as track choice, after seeing the video of the Black Diamond RR using scaletrax, you can make the track look almost lifelike.  If I ever build another layout that will be the way to go.  

About 10 years ago I had the opportunity to visit a number of 2 rail layouts in central Jersey.  They were all terrific and included return loops, signals, walk around hand held controls.  It seems to me you can accomplish pretty much anything you would like in either world if you have the three key ingredients, time, space and money.

I was into scale 3 rail stuff for 20 years or so. I started looking at the track beyond the center rail and was not impressed. The MTH scaletrax has ties very widely spaced and the tieplates are unrecognizeable from any prototype I'm aware of. Gargraves ties were very wide, no tieplates and with tall inset into the tie rails. At the time I thought Atlas would come through but the rails on Atlas 3 rail track are huge.

I went to 2 rail and haven't had any problem with it. I have 2 reverse loops on the layout. Automatic reversers require 4 extra wires to be hooked up to the box Bob Bartizek mentions. It is pretty easy and rock solid. Everyone with DCC that I know is running with wireless remotes. I have some MTH engines running on the layout and I know others who have converted Lionel engines to run as 2 rail as well.

 Best of both worlds Outer 3 rail loop,inner is 2 rail all Atlas track and switches, one TIU using 2 channels,half mth premiere half mth railking ..19 engines total

@   beginning  east bound CSX BNSF 4 engine multi unit
    @  .55  west bound Guilford Pan Am  5 engine multi unit
    @ 1.54  east bound Guilford 2 unit switching track

To quote Jim Carey in "Liar Liar":

"And the truth shall set you free". 

I look forward to the day when TMCC and DCS are totally in my rear view mirror.

Regards,

Jerry

The big advantage of 3 rail IMO is that one outside rail can be isolated,the whole loop in sections if need be. . With use of relays an inexpensive and reliable positioning detection system can be made. My layout is conventional, forward only mostly, a display type and is automated so that the trains run themselves without colliding. This would be much harder,somewhat more complicated in 2 rail,not that it could not be done. The cheapest 2 rail system for detection IMO is reed switches and magnets,not IR detectors I see commonly used.

Second I think 3 rail has much more available but I could be wrong. I like picking up deals on used items,half MSRP or less.

Dale H

Marc -

Have fun.  Find some like-minded people in your area to share your intrest and your enjoyment will increase exponetially.

I know (as I've read)  I don't have to look for approval or justification regarding my track choice, the reason I wrote the post was for dialog. I've enjoyed the opinions expressed here as for most threads on topics like this. Instead of saying which is better 2 rail or 3 rail which we know what happens then, I figured I'd just state what I've decided on for a track choice. Early on in my beginnings with O scale one thing I promised I would not let happen was to become a rivet counter. I knew some sacrifices would have to be made. I love scale, but I needed to set a boundary or I knew I could potentially ruin it for myself. A couple things that led me to my decision that weigh heavier than others are the lack of track side signal availability. I love the little things that allow a layout to come to life and signals, to me, are one of them. From what I've heard from a couple retailers, (not verified) is Atlas has no plans on coming back out with their signal system 2 or 3 rail. I guess we'll see on that. I like the Atlas signals and I like items I can order right away and not have to custom order. A lot of my purchases are in a way impulse buys. So if I can click and buy or give a part number to my LHS, I'm better off.  And the other is running Lionel. Unless you can run Lionel on 2 rail out of the box like that of MTH, I figured 3 rail was still the best choice.