8' x 10' Layout - Design Stages

I think you did build a platform. Build L-girders and leg/support sub-assemblies. Then cut the girders & assemble. The pictures of the support structure here: The Parkville Pike. Then the sub-roadbed supports (perpendicular pieces) create the shape of the deck and vertical risers with sub-roadbed for elevation changes. Masonite or MDF for the fascia.

2 x 4's and 1 x 2's for the L-girders should stay in your cost of lumber approach.

This is a lot of work for optional elevation changes and scenery options. It does allow you to make changes and disassemble sections easily if the need arises.

Also, you only need to homosote, cork, or rubber for the roadbed. No need to cover the entire surface. There are threads here on the why and how-to for that.

Cruise through this web image search for many examples of L-girder construction. I have attached a few.

This thread has great examples of lift-out construction.

Also, do the backdrop, lighting and any room work before construction.

Just some food for thought. A little refinement and it's time to build.

Am I on the right track now?

That looks like it. I'd make smaller sections, 5. 2 more leg sub-assemblies. Then you can work on smaller sections. Pre-wire beforehand . Lay a section on it's side and wire that way. Then stand and make the connection between. Crawling underneath will be a pain with the vertical supports. That would provide the ability to disassemble and assemble with no help. The homosote is heavy.

For backdrop, I meant something as simple as painting the wall blue from frame height up. I liked the low horizon clear day blue. Sherwin-Williams Tibetan Sky #7134 in eggshell is nice. Barely blue, like just above the tree line. Think about your lighting also.

I think you'll want a lift-out. That can be a project for later after ducking under annoys you.

Sleep on it and go. Time to make some sawdust.

Ok, thank you.  Your pictures helped a lot.  Do you think I'll need the risers though since I'm not even sure if there will be any elevation changes?  I may have a small river/creek, but thats about it.

I know it'd be hard to crawl underneath.  I actually thought about wall mounting like Tim did here, but I think it'd be easier/faster the way I have it modeled.

Yep, I knew exactly what you mean by the backdrop.  Thanks for the paint recommendation too.  

The lift-out is actually on the opposite side of the entrance of the room.  I should've posted a picture of the modeled room.  There is a 48" doorway at the mouth of my proposed benchwork where I plan to have a lift-out bridge.

I'm seeing people using plywood and ripping that down instead of 1x or 2x4s so I may also look into that.

Thanks!

Mike

Mike,

Looks like you are on your way with a good plan.  I have tried both L-girder and open grid methods in the past.  I think both have good and bad points, and you can't go wrong either way.  My room is small too.  That is it will be mine when our 20 something daughter moves out.  I am going to try to avoid a liftout, but may not be able to of I can't get the turnback curves wide enough to suite me.  I am looking forward to seeing your progress.

Mike, you won't need risers to start. That's the beauty of L-girder. if you want to drop or elevate an area, get out the saw a cut the base.

I read that other thread also. Helpful.

The plywood will be straight when you cut out the pieces on a table saw. Lately, I've been spending a lot of time picking through piles at the homestore for crooked lumber. That's the good pieces. It will increase your costs, but reduce your time to assemble and give you a better result. You'll have to glue and finish nail the L-Girders if you plywood. Don't screw into the lamination.

Keep in mind the actual (nominal) size of dimensional lumber when planning cuts on plywood for assembly or for assembling with 2 x 4's. A 2 x 4 was 1 5/8 x 3 5/8 in the last batch I purchased. Take a tape measure a visit the local supplier.

OK. I am a little thick sometimes. I now understand the small piece is in the back.

Thanks Mark!

Moonman,

Thanks for the riser information.  

"The plywood will be straight when you cut out the pieces on a table saw. Lately, I've been spending a lot of time picking through piles at the homestore for crooked lumber. That's the good pieces. It will increase your costs, but reduce your time to assemble and give you a better result."

What will, using plywood?
And thanks for the heads up on the dimensions.  I did know that though.  The 2x4s and 1x4s in  my model are to the correct size.  Well, roughly (1 1/2" x 3 1/2" for the 2x4s and 3/4" x 3 1/2" for the 1x4s).  I do have a table saw and finish nailer so its seems as if this could be an option for me.

I included a picture of my most recent project.  I built the bench (out of platforms my dad and I used to use) in 2012, but added the cabinets underneath and scratch built the doors for the tall cabinet in December.

Sorry, that wasn't very clear. I meant the cut plywood will be straight and to your dimensions versus the 2 x 4's being warped and twisted.

Well, sounds like your ready to build. I'm sure Dad is pleased with your carpentry skills.

Ah, yes okay, that makes sense now.  I have a feeling (depending on the plywood) it'd be a little cheaper too... possibly.  

I'm thinking he may be, he has a coffee table and 2' x 4' light up sign behind the bar in his game room the I built.

I would do my best to get rid of thee O 31 curves on the outside loop, can you get at least O-54?

If the reason being the displeasure to the eye (believe me, I see it too), both 031 curves will be in a tunnel.  At least the top one will be for sure.  The lower right I planned on sort of hiding if not put in a tunnel.

It's not only from a view perspective, but even more so is the fact the O-31 curves will unnecessarily limit your choice of locomotives and rolling stock.  O-54 minimums would open your world immensely to more options.  Lose the O-31's on the outer loop at all costs.  You'll thank us later.  

David

I wholeheartedly agree with the discussion of minimum curves.  Always go with the biggest curves/turnouts possible because it's much easier to scale down than up.  Trains look far more realistic on bigger curves.

Well I was using it as a method to prevent myself from being able to buy anything more expensive than what I can afford!  But now that you say it, I may be able to change out the O-31s.  Not sure if I can swing all O-54 and up, but O-42 will probably work.  I'll work on it and see what I can come up with

Thanks!

Would it help him, if he wanted/needed to keep the O31 curves, to widen them out by installing a piece of straight between the two curves?

Any benefit there? Since it is only those two corners effected, it would seem worthwhile to put something else there though.

Greg

I replaced the O-31 turns with O-54 (pictures to come shortly).  The only problem with the new design is that its going to cost me $200+ more (and money is a factor) than I had planned with the original design.  Instead of only needing one more O-42 RH switch/turnout to complete my design, I would now need two more O-42 RH and two more O-54 RH.

I don't really plan on buying anything large (Scale) any time soon.  At least not with a 8'4" x 9'10" layout.  I'm considering a nice steamer in the future, but I'm not in the financial position to thrown down $500 for an loco.  In other words, minus the fact that it wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing, O-31 in a tunnel wouldn't affect me that much. 

Mike,

I built two L-girder layouts in my time.  On the first my L-girders were pretty long.  I glued and screwed a 1 x 4 upright to a 1 x 3 horizontal I think it was.  I did whatever Kalmbach had recommended.  My wood must have not been seasoned as well as it should because the 1 x 4 developed a twist that actually twisted the 1 x 3.  Fortunately, we moved, which I hadn't expected when I started.  I then started over with another plan in a different shaped room and discarded the L-girders.  Looks like you know more about lumber than I do, so you may have this issue under control.

I'm glad to be reading this thread and MoonMan's and others advice.

I am also with you on keeping costs down.

Dave, John, wb47,

Here is my layout updated with O-54 curves.  Note that the turnout leading to the yard and the turnouts and curves within the yard are still O-42.  Not sure yet if I can manage changing them.

Mark,

I sure hope I dont end up with those issues!  Cost is my main concern.  I'm sure it is for a lot of people, but I'm sure my wife may start getting mad at me soon!

I do have a pretty good knowledge of lumber, at least I'd like to think so.

I'm very thankful for the others' advice, its been helpful, not only in this thread, but others I've posted.

I've made some headway with purchasing the power/electrical components I am going to need.  At least with that it feels like I'm making SOME progress.

Hey Mike,

I sped read through your thread... did you mention what kind of track you are intending to use?

Thanks for pointing that out Patrick, I don't believe I did.  It looks like I'll probably be going with RealTrax since it seems fairly inexpensive (although maybe not the "prettiest").  I have some older Lionel track that DOC gave me, but not sure if I can incorporate that in or not.

Looks much much much nicer with the bigger curves!  You will be happier in the long run because one day you'll want longer equipment and you will have more space. 

Not trying to be a pain, but Realtrax isn't realistic at all in appearance.   It's very toy-like.  I love MTH.  I love their engines, cars, etc., but not the track.  I would seriously consider Gargraves track and either Gargraves turnout which are awesome, my layout is full of them with zero problems, or Ross which I admit is considered the very best turnout by a vast majority of people.  I decided to save myself twenty plus bucks per turnout and fortunately my Gargraves turnouts gamble paid off for me in a big way.

I would sell all that toy-like track now, in the beginning, because the BUG has got you!!! and you'll be doing this until they wheel you over to the nursing home!  I'll see you there.

Please don't make the same mistake I did like buying more toy real-trax similar to what I did when I bought K-Line snap track--talk about completely unrealistic--only to have to sell all of it, about $1500 worth, to replace with Gargraves later.  I was lucky that I did recover all of my K-line track and turnouts money.  Sorry for bragging but my Gargraves with actual real wooden ties with blackened center rail looks awesome, because I use a lot of black ballast and the center rail is very difficult to see unless you are looking for it.

Hey it's almost Valentines Day!  Tell her you want Gargraves!  My wife allowed me to purchase two Great Northern Railway big sky blue engines!  It's the best Valentine's day gift I ever got!  No kidding.  Go for it man!  :-)

John,

Thank you.
I have a good amount of RealTrax already...  I'll have to admit, I didn't do that much research on track.  I just assumed (we all know what they say about assuming) that RealTrax was cheaper than the nicer looking Gargraves, Atlas, and Scaletrax.  I'm looking for it now to compare.  It seems as if RealTrax is cheaper (and I got all of mine at approximately half price) and I'm trying to keep costs at a minimum.  

I've tried to get her to recognize this forum, but I don't think its working!  I've showed her multiple engines, buildings, and rolling stock to no avail.  Also, she knows exactly where the LHS is!

Thanks!

Mike

Mike, I like those O-42 curves a lot more than the O-31.  All I have used is Gar-Graves.  I like it, but don't have any experience with the others.

 Dear Mike:

Realtrax is more expensive than Gargraves.  Why?  Because it has the built in roadbed.  The Gargraves track  does NOT.  Atlas and Ross are EXPENSIVE--a lot more than Gargraves.  The "knock" on Gargraves was their switches (turnouts.)  Today, Gargraves has updated the turnouts (I have over twenty) and I have mine in a huge around-the-walls basement--single line with passing sidings, and I have had absolutely ZERO problems with these turnouts.

I understand all about needing to keep expense down.  However, your track plan isn't that large.  If you do some shopping around you could find the least expensive Gargraves track.  Believe me I shopped for my track for an entire basement and I got prices that ranged from $2000 to $4000 for the exact same track--Gargraves--WOODEN TIES---Phantom (blackened) center rail.  The Internet is a great thing.

Not trying to cause a rift between you and the girl but I would seriously price the Gargraves track vs. all others, make a decision, then see what you can sell your Realtrax for because in the end, trust me been there have the T-shirt, you will eventually switch from the Realtrax to something that does look much more  realistic and it's far cheaper to do it now than later.  I am the voice of experience speaking well actually writing. 

John,

I definitely thank you for your information.  I've heard the "knock" and that people usually use Ross turnouts in place of the Gargraves (correct me if I'm wrong).  

If do make the change, I may have to redesign my proposed layout.  By looking at the GG though, it looks like it can be cut to desired lengths, is that correct?  

The thing that I do have going in my favor is that I dont even have the "train room" cleaned out yet.  So it will be a couple months before I even start to lay track.  If I were to switch, I have time to do so.  Any good sources?

My wife doesn't really care that much about what I'm spending on the trains (she does her fair share, if not more, of clothes shopping).  

Thanks!

Mike

My wife owns more shoes than a Walmart!  I am lucky that she does really enjoy the trains but that can be dangerous too.  If I take her with me to the hobby shop she may come home with a couple of hundred dollars of stuff that we could really use something else for more.  Oh well....

Yes, you have plenty of time with two months.  Yes, it is incredibly easy to bend, fit, cut Gargraves to any radius, length, etc.  HOWEVER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Buy a Dremel tool with a 2"  cut-off rotary blade.  FORGET anything you hear praising manual cut off tools, scissors, snips, whatever--these "crush" the ends of Gargraves (Lionel and Ross) rails making it impossible to get a pin in.   

As far as resources all you can do is search the Internet and Ebay for Gargraves track looking for the best deal.  What I did when I found the best deal I went to my local exclusive, I'm lucky!, O scale hobby shop and said: Okay, I'd rather buy it here from you guys, I can get this track for $1200 on-line.  Can you match it? They did!

I love to support my local bricks and motar Hobby Shop if/when I can afford to.  I like the guys there but can't afford to shell out a bunch more money just because I like them.

So in my very long winded way I'm saying spend time on the Internet and search for best price for Gargraves.  You absolutely can buy the GG cheaper than your current Realtrax.

DO NOT...I REPEAT, DO NOT BUY USED GARGRAVES TURNOUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You may be buying the older versions that even Gargraves would admit doesn't work as well.  Buy BRAND NEW IN-THE-PACKAGE GARGRAVES TURNOUTS.

PS:  I just re-read your reply from above.  Yes, seemingly more people use Ross switches.  I took a gamble and save twenty per turnout.  I still am going to buy probably ten to twenty more turnouts--all GARGRAVES less I'm seriously considering buying two 4-Way turnouts  by Ross because these are huge space-savers in my configuration.

Thanks Mark!

It seems that you are not doing any elevation changes, hence risers. and L girder are really kind of over kill, however if you elevate the outer track you could even incorporate a single reverse loop elevated over the  yard.

If you are building some elevations go for the risers and L-girder the flange is best at 2" the vertical should be 4"  best to make your L-girders out of ripped 3/4 furniture grade ply

 as far as track why not run with got yah got? you can weather the ballast of the real track and paint the sides of the rails with "rail rust"

JMHO

heres an idea with gargraves O54- O42   ross switches...only way to go ..can be inverted several different ways , but will give you a reverse if you wanted.....

 can take middle switches out if you want to walk further into room...

 drive through" yard"--- can be built in 4 phases as you acquire switches- passing on left to switch out engines at front or rear of train.... pull cars out of stubs and turn them around on "Y" or bring all the cars out of ALL the stubs down around to the passing where another engine waits..- this give you alot of extra room but adds the need to back up through the Y to turn around when going "east"   some interesting things can be moved around to accommodate your scenery-industry-passenger station etc..

Mountain Man,

If I had any risers, and I've considered it, it would be small and on the outer loop.  I've also considered an elevated reverse loop, but I'd only be able to do it using O31 since the area I have is so small.  As far as painting the rails, I never thought of that until earlier today seeing a post where someone painted their fast track (looked prett good actually).

Patrick,

I really like both of those designs.  It changes my mindset completely.  I was basing every design I tried on RealTrax, but now I see how I can do things differently by using GG and Ross switches.  The cutout/viewing area you have shown is much better than my narrow 21" walkway.  

Thanks!

Mike

*Edit - Just checked the Ross switch prices... not all that attractive, at least not new

If I would've had this in mind a week or two ago, I probably would've spent money on some of the locos that were for sale on the forum instead of using it for the actual layout.  You are right though Patrick, not much room for parked trains.  Its not all that important to me, its just more for looks of a yard and some convenience.   I probably wouldn't have much space for buildings and scenery with this design, or at least I don't think so?  I'm liking the other designs you've come up with though.  They have me pricing out Gargraves and Ross.... and all I can say is oh man.  Maybe I should start selling off the track I already have.

*Edit - I really like the second design you posted above.  

Sell that track Mike! 

PS:  Sorry for the interference with your thoughts.

This forum and particularly this advice about track and other issues reminds me of a Model Railroader article that I read years ago.  The writer of the article went over to another guy's layout and gave him some advice--especially about a duck-under and how his design would NOT allow an operator to follow his or her train around the layout.

A week later the writer returned to this same layout only to find it totally disassembled lining the basement floor.   The guy told the writer:  "I took your advice."  The writer says sheepishly: "I see that you did!" 

No worries at all John.  I welcome all comments and criticism.  I enjoy hearing what everybody things or ideas that they have.

So the guy tore the layout down?  Crazy!

Patrick provided some really good ideas that I couldn't have come up with, at least not on the RealTrax cloud.

@mike-

Looking at the picture of the closet you built, I am sure she wouldn't mind if you got better track..and you get the best of both worlds, you can have your trains and see her wearing those shoes. My wife, on seeing them, would tell me "you like heels? You wear them!" which needless to say, would not be a pleasant sight

Seriously, I agree with others, Gargraves is a good way to go. It isn't as cheap as tinplate track, but you can do a lot with it, and you can often get the track at decent prices either used or new, and can be cut easily to size to fit almost anything, likewise you aren't limited to standard curve sizes (so if 054 is too big, you might be able to do o50, 048, you name it and when you buy it used or through discounts, it prob will be close to the price of new tinplate, def less than real trax would be. 

I really like patrick's track plans!  Use two inch form core to lay the track on (like in dennis brennen's book) and you have lots of options for scenery.  Regarding switches,  I had a book a long time ago "HO Railroads the Grow" which bascially built a layout in steps, so you could do the outside loops first, and then add the switches and passing sidings as time and money allows. 

 
So with Ross switches, I've noticed there are three types.  Manual - self explanatory, DZ1000 and DZ2500.  Whats the difference between the last two?

all 3 switches are the same its just whats attatched to the switch...... DZ1000 is a remote switch motor attatched to the switch ... DZ2500 is a TMCC capable switch motor attatched to the switch little less wiring than the 1000.

If you can afford the switch motors it is a little cheaper to get them with the motor from Steve,

If not just get the switches thn decide later what motors to get. If i had to do it again i would of just used tortoises on the "manual" switches..

Dont worry about that yet... take one step at a time.. over the summer you will be able to find some deals, then you can decide what way to go.

Okay Patrick, thank you!  

I meant to post this in my previous post, but I won't need the AIU, will I?  When planning out the initial RealTrax, I was going to use the KW I have to power the switches.

No Mike...you do not need an AIU.  You would only need one eventually if you purchased command control and you wanted to throw your turnouts via hand-held wireless throttle.  In your situation, keeping it simple would be much better.  To wire the DZ (which stands for Dennis Zander--a great guy!) you merely power the turnout DZ machines through a transformer.  Follow the wiring diagram--simple.

The most difficult part, and it isn't difficult, is to wire the non-derailing feature into the turnout.  Forgive me because you probably know the non-derailing feature automatically adjusts the points so it will not wreck the train--they call it "splitting the switch" in real life.  Wire your turnouts to be non-derailing--much easier than explaining it to a non-model railroader who wants to run your trains.