Mystery I.C.R.R. 'Mountain' 4-8-2 - New pics

I really think an underside shot might help!         cTr....( Choose the Right )

Stephen Bloy posted:

I really think an underside shot might help!         cTr....( Choose the Right )

Indeed.

Yes - essential if you want an ID.  My guess at this point is Overland USRA, seriously modified.  I have a tender body from one; I will check it.

Wonder if it might be a re-built USRA heavy 4-8-2, which was imported by Pacific Fast Mail in the 1970's? This IC 4-8-2 weighed 362,000 lbs; the USRA heavy 4-8-2 weighed 350,000 lbs. Same approximate boiler contour.  Would have required a lot of surgery to produce the IC 4-8-2.  Maybe/probably scratchbuilt, but employing many commercially available parts.

It's nice, whatever it is.

My Overland tender is a dead ringer, except for trucks and that ladder to the coal pile.  Photos soon.

bob2 posted:

Yes - essential if you want an ID.  My guess at this point is Overland USRA, seriously modified.  I have a tender body from one; I will check it.

Overland might be a good guess. It looks to be of recent vintage, because the workmanship is light years ahead of the old CRAP that gets posted here. I would try and contact Brian Marsh and send him an image to see if Overland did it. You should be able to get his E-mail from the Overland website, which is still around as far as I know!

Simon

Please.  Doorstops is the polite term, and some of us value seeing the older stuff.

Here is one quick shot of the Overland Mountain tender.  I cleaned it up a bit - previous owner had rattle-canned it green.  Locomotive got converted to C&O, so I got the leftovers.

While NOT versed in O scale brass, About what time period did Brass importers make holes for sound system speakers?

For 3 rail ROWI [which was made by Ajin of Korea] had theirs in the late 1980's

bob2 posted:

Please.  Doorstops is the polite term, and some of us value seeing the older stuff.

Some of us don't. One man's doorstop is another man's crap. If "politeness"  was truly a factor, we wouldn't be posting outside 3rd rail stuff on the 2 rail forum.

Simon

Well it is your choice.  Skip any posts about Icken, Scale Craft, Lobaugh, Lenoir, or scratchbuilt.  I for one would miss it if such posts were forbidden

bob2 posted:

Well it is your choice.  Skip any posts about Icken, Scale Craft, Lobaugh, Lenoir, or scratchbuilt.  I for one would miss it if such posts were forbidden

It's easy. If it is 2 rail post it here. If it is 3 rail (center rail or outside) post it on the 3 rail forum. I don't post two rail topics on the 3 rail forum! Tell me why I should have to skip 3 rail posts in the 2 rail forum? You're trying to twist things to YOUR agenda.

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

bob2 posted:

Well it is your choice.  Skip any posts about Icken, Scale Craft, Lobaugh, Lenoir, or scratchbuilt.  I for one would miss it if such posts were forbidden

It's easy. If it is 2 rail post it here. If it is 3 rail (center rail or outside) post it on the 3 rail forum. I don't post two rail topics on the 3 rail forum! Tell me why I should have to skip 3 rail posts in the 2 rail forum? You're trying to twist things to YOUR agenda.

Simon

Sorry, outside 3rd rail topics do not belong in the 3 rail forum.  Outside 3rd rail is the ancestor to current day two operations.

Opinion based heavily on fact.

ecd15 posted:

Simon Winter posted:

bob2 posted:

Well it is your choice.  Skip any posts about Icken, Scale Craft, Lobaugh, Lenoir, or scratchbuilt.  I for one would miss it if such posts were forbidden

It's easy. If it is 2 rail post it here. If it is 3 rail (center rail or outside) post it on the 3 rail forum. I don't post two rail topics on the 3 rail forum! Tell me why I should have to skip 3 rail posts in the 2 rail forum? You're trying to twist things to YOUR agenda.

Simon

Sorry, outside 3rd rail topics do not belong in the 3 rail forum.  Outside 3rd rail is the ancestor to current day two operations.

Opinion based heavily on fact.

The FACT is there are 3 rails, count 'em. Next you're going to say stud rail isn't 3 rail. Blacken the middle rail, make it from HO rail, do everything you can to disguise it, there are still 3 rails, that's the FACT. The stuff is NOT called "Outside 2 Rail".

Sorry.  I thought you were denigrating the models Corey and I are posting.  Sure - outside third is three rail.  Most O Scalers would allow that Icken E6 to be posted here, rather than on the 3-rail scale forum.  You are entitled to your opinion about what is junk, and certainly your claim that outside third is not two rail is valid.

But understand, when you call what others consider worthy of collecting "junk" you may be eliciting responses.

ECD15 is exactly right - outside 3rd rail is the scale predecessor to today's O Scale 2 rail. The predecessor of today's 3 rail is Lionel 3 rail. Look at the rollers and flanges !!

Don't think contacting Overland re this locomotive would produce much of value. Overland did USRA 2-8-2's, light & heavy, but no USRA 4-8-2's. The USRA heavy 4-8-2 was done by PFM. It was kind of an outlier, as it just popped up out of no-where in the 1970's. 

There seems to be some conjecture elsewhere on this forum that what I have is a Toby/Pacific Fast Mail 4-8-2. I didn’t post an enquiry on any other topic but ran across some opinion that this was made in Japan by Toby and was imported by PFM as an unpainted brass model. One fellow posted a photo of the underside of his 4-8-2 which appears identical to mine. Would it be reasonable to assume mine is a Toby/PFM that was customized, painted, and I.C.R.R. decals and markings applied by an expert? Cheers! —Bob

Generally, if it walks like a duck and quacks it probably is a duck. If all things look the same, it likely is PFM. Your model, your call. I generally don't think of PFM because they did mostly HO, but they certainly did the quality of workmanship your model exhibits.

Simon

bob2 posted:

Sorry.  I thought you were denigrating the models Corey and I are posting.  Sure - outside third is three rail.  Most O Scalers would allow that Icken E6 to be posted here, rather than on the 3-rail scale forum.  You are entitled to your opinion about what is junk, and certainly your claim that outside third is not two rail is valid.

But understand, when you call what others consider worthy of collecting "junk" you may be eliciting responses.

No apology necessary Bob. Just a lively discussion, and no they certainly are NOT all junk.......but some (in my opinion) are.

Simon

mark s posted:

ECD15 is exactly right - outside 3rd rail is the scale predecessor to today's O Scale 2 rail. The predecessor of today's 3 rail is Lionel 3 rail. Look at the rollers and flanges !!

Don't think contacting Overland re this locomotive would produce much of value. Overland did USRA 2-8-2's, light & heavy, but no USRA 4-8-2's. The USRA heavy 4-8-2 was done by PFM. It was kind of an outlier, as it just popped up out of no-where in the 1970's. 

I never used the word predecessor. I would appreciate it if you would NOT attribute another person's rhetoric to me.

I said outside 3 rail track is...............wait for it: 3 rail.

My contention is, that since it is 3 rail, it should not have posts on the TWO rail forum. Unfortunately some of you fine folks can't seem to read or count!

Simon

mark s posted:

Don't think contacting Overland re this locomotive would produce much of value. Overland did USRA 2-8-2's, light & heavy, but no USRA 4-8-2's. The USRA heavy 4-8-2 was done by PFM. It was kind of an outlier, as it just popped up out of no-where in the 1970's. 

I wouldn't begin to argue your point. Overland was the only importer that I could think of that might have done the loco in question.

I never gave PFM a thought because they were mostly importers of HO. I remember them primarily for their geared loggers (Heisler, Shay, & Climax).

Simon

PFM imported a very  nice O Scale Great Northern 4-6-0 in the early '80's, plus an O Scale D&RGW C48 std gauge 2-8-0 (1970) to accompany their exquisite (for the time) D&RGW narrow gauge K36 2-8-2 (1969).     So, PFM did dabble in O Scale.

The O Scale PFM USRA 4-8-2, again, just popped up in the late '70's or early '80's. I had no interest in the USRA heavy 4-8-2, as so few railroads rostered them (N&W, FEC, C&O).

Ok, I happen to have a photo of this engine on my hard drive because the engine was worked on by my father. Unfortunately he passed away on 2005 but maybe 10 years prior to that if I recall correctly there was a fellow who paid to have that engine detailed to match IC 2411 which was dear to him for some reason. It started life as a Sunset(not 3rd rail), I remember that much, and the guy who owned it has passed away also and again, unfortunately, I do not remember his name off hand. Now I am going to be thinking about this and trying to remember more about it...

Here is my photo of it from then...

http://i1074.photobucket.com/a...rass_zps9iqaabwd.jpg

mark s posted:

     So, PFM did dabble in O Scale.

Don't doubt it for a minute, but they are not the first name that pops into my head when I think "O" because they did so little of it!

Simon

oscaletrains posted:

Ok, I happen to have a photo of this engine on my hard drive because the engine was worked on by my father. Unfortunately he passed away on 2005 but maybe 10 years prior to that if I recall correctly there was a fellow who paid to have that engine detailed to match IC 2411 which was dear to him for some reason. It started life as a Sunset(not 3rd rail), I remember that much, and the guy who owned it has passed away also and again, unfortunately, I do not remember his name off hand. Now I am going to be thinking about this and trying to remember more about it...

That would have been my next GUESS after Overland, purely by process of elimination. Your Dad did a great job. It is a handsome engine!

Simon

Sunset imported the USRA 4-8-2 in 1996 and it listed for $1250

Simon Winter posted:

oscaletrains posted:

Ok, I happen to have a photo of this engine on my hard drive because the engine was worked on by my father. Unfortunately he passed away on 2005 but maybe 10 years prior to that if I recall correctly there was a fellow who paid to have that engine detailed to match IC 2411 which was dear to him for some reason. It started life as a Sunset(not 3rd rail), I remember that much, and the guy who owned it has passed away also and again, unfortunately, I do not remember his name off hand. Now I am going to be thinking about this and trying to remember more about it...

That would have been my next GUESS after Overland, purely by process of elimination. Your Dad did a great job. It is a handsome engine!

Simon

 

Well, my father did not detail it.  I am sure he knew who did but all I remember about it is that the guy who owned it wanted to see it run and it would not or could not so my father repaired it. The back side of one of the drivers might show a quartering repair, but it has been so long ago now that I am not certain what all was repaired. But it eventually ran nice because I remember running it and taking the photo of it. How he knew or came in contact with the fellow that owned it I have no idea.

This is incredible......your photo matches my model in every respect, including the gold-plated eagle on the headlamp! They must be one and the same model!

It's a one of a kind for certain. I went back and read your previous posts about it, so you obviously know the name of the original owner who had it rebuilt that way. It's interesting that the guys family does not seem very interested in things that meant so much to him. But that's the way it goes I suppose. Model trains are not most people's cup of tea. 

His name was Robert E. McMillan, died in 2015, and the family's lake home near us is full of locomotives of every description. He was an accomplished artist as well and one wall of their lake home is covered with framed pencil, charcoal, and colored sketches of I.C.R.R. locomotives. He was a fireman on the IC, and two of his relatives worked for that RR in different capacities. The family is only faintly interested in his collection and they were grateful enough for my photo album I produced for them that they presented me with this incredible model. As a life-long modeler myself I am hugely impressed by the detail and workmanship of this model. So, it's a Sunset model? Any more information regarding it that you can recall? Cheers! --Bob

BSteinIPMS posted:

His name was Robert E. McMillan, died in 2015, and the family's lake home near us is full of locomotives of every description. He was an accomplished artist as well and one wall of their lake home is covered with framed pencil, charcoal, and colored sketches of I.C.R.R. locomotives. He was a fireman on the IC, and two of his relatives worked for that RR in different capacities. The family is only faintly interested in his collection and they were grateful enough for my photo album I produced for them that they presented me with this incredible model. As a life-long modeler myself I am hugely impressed by the detail and workmanship of this model. So, it's a Sunset model? Any more information regarding it that you can recall? Cheers! --Bob

McMillian.  I was thinking it started with an H, no wonder I couldn't remember. I had the "Bob" for the first name right though.  Anyway, yes, it started life as a 96 Sunset import USRA Mountain, but was obviously highly modified. Sunset also did a C&O Mountain about the same time, but it had a tank type tender I think. You certainly do not see the USRA version coming up for sale much so it must have been a fairly small run of engines so a fairly rare bird perhaps. I wish I could recall more about it but since it was a repair job and not a build one for my father, it wasn't in his basement all that long. I am certain that it was the first engine ever detailed specifically for the IC that I ever saw, in O Scale especially. I don't know that there are or were very many IC modelers, in any scale really, so I am not so certain that money wise it would bring a whole lot unless you found just the right guy that wanted it. Detailed the way it is, no one is ever going to buy it to repaint to any other road, so it would have to be an IC modeler. The short tendered 4-8-2's the IC had were built for passenger service really, so now you need some heavy weight cars to go with it. I think the bid on these cars shows just how rare an IC O Scale modeler is...

https://marketplace.trainzauct...ffer/details/5471743

If you wanted to nit pick the engine, the steam and sand domes are not quite "roundy" enough on top and the tender sides don't have enough rivets, which these days could be easily fixed with Archer decal ones before painting. Some of the piping is different but piping changed through the years so unless you a photo of that exact engine it's hard to say if that is all exactly correct.  But all in all, it is a splendid model.

I have a nagging memory/suspicion that Robert MacMillan was the President of the Toledo, Peoria & Western RR, particularly when NKP 765 made two trips out of Peoria in May 1980. Do I have that correct, that he headed the "Tip Up" ?

mark s posted:

I have a nagging memory/suspicion that Robert MacMillan was the President of the Toledo, Peoria & Western RR, particularly when NKP 765 made two trips out of Peoria in May 1980. Do I have that correct, that he headed the "Tip Up" ?

The former president of the TP&W RR was Bob McMillan, i.e. spelled differently than the "MacMillan" being discussed above.

There is magnificent footage of sister 4-8-2 #2405, at 3:47, on a tape available on YOUTUBE titled "The Illinois Central ReMastered - HD 1080p".    Could not get the address to take, so one would have to do a search on 'tube.  Worth the teeny bit of effort required. Very nice locomotive.

Ahh, clears that up. 

On those $32 coaches - I seriously doubt that the "Illinois Central" stick-ons had anything to do with the popularity of these models - of course with such lousy pictures it is difficult to tell anything about Trainz offerings.

Oh - wouldn't it be nice to see his collection memorialized with more photos here?