help milwaukee road S-3 update

So does it run when smoke is off?  If the smoke element is grounding out to the chamber it can cause the TMCC/Legacy boards not to operate properly.  I would inspect the smoke unit.  G

GGG....

 

if if I put engine only on track powered by a  lionel 180 brick with or without smoke switch on in either command or conventional it trips the breaker immediately.

 

if I put engine only on test bench I have it draws 5amps at 10 volts and will run until smoke switch is turned on for the smoke stack then the breaker pops.

 

i will see f I can unplug smoke unit from main board and try it on layout again.

GGG....

 

I unplugged both large molex connectors in front of smoke unit replaced engine shell and set on layout tracks.

 

I unplugged one wire from legacy base but no startup in conventional, But in command control engine does stay dormant and now responds to all commands.

I assume each of those molex connectors is for each smoke feature on this locomotive?

 

so I will also assume seeing main board is still powered and engine works we are in fact looking at the smoke unit as the main issue again?

 

is this particular smoke unit a problem child of sorts verses the other smoke units built in this same year?

 

and is the repair an easy one? or requires services like you provide to verify circuit board components are okay as well as what is the cause of the short?

I don't know if it is a class problem, but I worked on a different model that used your dual chamber smoke and one of the resistors was touching the side of the smoke chamber and shorting out the engine.

 

I think it is easy to remove the smoke PCB and inspect resistor and make sure they are centered in smoke unit.  I believe one is for smoke and the other for whistle smoke, so you may plug one back and see if it still is ok.  That would help isolate which element is the issue.   G

GGG.....

I have so far isolated short issue to the aux smoke unit kinda sorta if I connect the connector at pcb the breaker trips.

 

so I disconnected the aux connector and all is okay! so was curious and slide the aux switch from off to on and the breaker tripped. so am thinking a wire under smoke unit bare or?

 

as an fyi they actually have white lettering at each molex connector as to which smoke feature that each molex connector powers.

 

so is this now a bare wire or something in the switch that is bad or??

 

also is there a very small squeeze clamp for the tubing so it will stay connected to that pipe at both ends for the cylinder smoke feature?

ok so I removed smoke unit both elements look centered and not grounding out.

 

so with the molex connector not connected to the aux pcb all works fine until I switch the aux switch to the on position and then 3 blinks of cab light so how is that possible??

 

I did the R reset and with switch in on position it keeps up with that error code or are the fans powered separately somehow?

 

if I turn aux smoke switch to off and do the R reset all is fine and main smoke stack is working fine while all of this is going on.

 

 

Guys, FYI those are not Molex connectors.  They are Leoco connectors.  In Lionel engines black are Molex and white are Leoco.  

 

With the cab off the engine, touch one probe from your continuity tester to the center roller and the other probe to ground.  Do this with the smoke unit unplugged.  If you get continuity, let us know.  If you get  no continuity, plug your smoke unit back in and let us know what you have.  

 

Were you able to do a continuity test on the smoke switch?  Check for continuity on each leg of the switch and ground.  Those switches are nothing great to write home about.  I have run into shorted switches.  Do the above tests and confirm or eliminate the switch.  

You can also get the same connectors from JST, and they're much easier to find.  Leoco only sells in large quantities, Digikey stocks them all.  The JST EH line connectors are the 2.5mm ones, the JST PH line are the 2mm ones, and the JST ZH line are the 1.5mm ones used in newer stuff.  The 1.25mm connectors you occasionally find are actually Molex connectors.

 

Thanks for that info commercial John

 

I think I would start with the switch and work towards the smoke unit.  I looked at the parts diagram on Lionel's website, but I did not see a separate Smoke PCB listed like the new Legacy use.  There is no wire diagram for this engine, so you need to trace wires.  As Marty said, may be a shorted switch, or one of the wires from the switch towards the smoke board or smoke unit is shorted. 

 

I believe one input to the smoke switch is AC center rail and the other goes to the Smoke unit of smoke PCB.  If you can trace that wire and see where it goes it might help isolate this.  With switch off see if one of the wires goes to center rail and if any have continuity with ground.   G

Marty Fitzhenry and GGG......

 

ok set meter to an upside down horse shoe symbol I have a klein mm 200 meter. testing with both connectors unplugged from smoke unit pcb.

 

I get a 0.475 reading on leg not used and on center leg. the 3rd leg reads 0.584 when switch set to on for aux switch.

 

I touched probe to hot pickup roller and to each leg of aux switch.

 

I found by accident where the shrink tubing for the 4 black wires all going to center leg of each switch for program odyssey main and aux smoke switches had slipped off from covering solder joint I temporarily put tape on it but no help.

 

so far if I leave aux connector disconnected from smoke pcb all is happy unless I turn slide switch for aux smoke unit then 3 cab light blinks.

 

out of idle curiosity when I set meter to an upside down horse shoe and touch probes to hot and ground on smoke pcb board where I think the fans get powered it beeps is that a good thing??

 

a master of electronics and meters I am not I only ever used meter to verify I had track power other uses of meter not so much so please bare with me.

 

 

3 cab lights is a defective smoke fan motor.  A common problem.  Throw in a new fan motor and reprogram the locomotive.

I wouldn't think a bad smoke fan motor would cause a breaker to trip.  Without anything connected to the smoke unit, what do the smoke resistors measure on the ohms scale?

Can you post a picture?  One leg of the AUX switch should be Center pick up and you would get a low (near 0) resistance reading with your meter to center rail pickup.  The other (when the switch is off) should read high or infinite resistance to center pickup roller.  Did you do those measurements?  If that all checks out, repeat to chassis ground.  If one of those leads is 0 ohms to chassis ground, that is the problem, and you need to trace the wire that is soldered onto that lead.  It would be making contact with the chassis, and when you put the switch on it shorts the Center rail power to chassis.   G

John I agree with you on the breaker.  He still has something going on.  I would start at the smoke switch as that would hit the breaker.  The 3 blinks are the fan motor.

Will check things further Saturday I hope have family doings.

I am somewhat confused if connector for both smoke units not plugged in how can it sense fan motor (s) are bad when I slide switch to on for the aux smoke unit??
very baffling to me as if no wire connected from that aux switch being connected at pcb plug in isn't that an incomplete circuit?

I'm not sure how the fan sensor works, I know it senses over current, but it may also sense an open circuit.

I am running from memory, but I think the smoke units have an aux power board that may still have power.  A picture of your unit may help, because don't have a lionel wiring diagram to look at.  If I remember correctly the fans are powered from that board, not the smoke unit.  But again it could be different from your engine.

 

I think what you have unplugged is the heat element plugs.  G

Here are all photos of smoke unit. The 2 connectors in front is only wiring to entire smoke unit.
Once they are removed no way to power either fan motor that I can see.

hope the pictures help

I can only conclude that the Legacy electronics is sensing the motor is open and flashing the error code.  Clearly, it's not connected when you remove those plugs.

John is correct on his last statement.

The first statement is speculation, but it seems to be what's happening if he's still getting the motor code.   Perhaps I should test it the next time I have a Legacy locomotive on the bench...

 

 

That is the same unit I worked on.  4 wires in and 2 to element and 2 for fan.  All powered from the aux smoke board.  If you touch one probe on the pin for the heater element of the AUX unit and the other on chassis ground do you get a reading?  like 0 to 6 ohms?  If so the element is grounding to the chamber.  The other issue is that wire from the switch.  Find the end that plugs into the aux smoke board and remove it.  If the switch is no longer grounded I think the problem is the AUX board triac probably shorted.  If the switch still grounds out the wire is damaged or the switch is bad.  G

My vote is probably for the smoke board, I've had a couple of those with issues.

and i'm back!

 

okay an experiment used the connector for the aux smoke unit to power the stack smoke unit.

result was switch is okay smoke stack worked as if it were the steam cylinders and no 3 cab blinks.

 

I proceeded to do smoke element check touching each screw on pcb board where the elements are attached I get no continuity reading on aux side meter reads 000.0

 

the main stack element I get the beep from meter and a reading of 009.0

 

so would I assume correctly the element is at fault or?

Yes you got continuity  0 is full continuity or a short.  Sounds like the element is shorted.  The good one measured 9 ohms, so that is probably the 8 ohm element.

 

I would replace the element and try it again.   G