Need Yard Design Help

I would suggest you do two things:

1) Lose the double slip switch and a drill track ideally should not cross the A/D tracks.

2) Your "yard" doesn't really look like a yard.   If you really want a yard I suggest designing a proper one.  If you want a space to hold a lot of cars just make staging tracks.   Sooner or later you'll wish you had a proper yard.

Bottom line - it's your layout.   If this is what you want then go for it.

Regards,

Greg

Greg,

Thanks for the advice on the double slip switch. 

With respect, telling me the "'yard' doesn't really look like a yard" or that I will want a "proper yard" is sort of meaningless without explaining.  As I said, I just read Andy Sperandeo's book and, other than a caboose track and some intermittent optional cross-overs, the concepts seem to be captured.  Can you elaborate?

Thanks

Peter 

Peter,

Your yard is basically three long storage tracks. As Greg suggested I would lose the slip switch and just have the drill track come off the A/D track before you start the ladder switches (see pic). So the switcher has to cross the A/D track while sorting cars, no big deal. I would assume you'd have trains running on the main lines while you do your switching, but if you want to run a train through the yard just have the switcher duck into the drill track. I am a bit concerned with the grades you have on the main line going up and over the yard tracks, then coming back down down on the left side to 0 elevation for the yard entrance. You say this is the lower level, but isn't the main line partially elevated here? 

what is a drill track?  i have never heard that expression.

OK, this is what I had in the plan before trying a double slip.  Thanks.

Actually, I didn't say it was a lower level.  It's all part of the sea level route.  My second level is competely separate - it's an El line.  This sea level route connects to a higher mountain pass (you can see the curved turnout at the top right rear where it will connect to a long incline track).

Is a 4.8 % incline too much?  I'm guessing it is, or at least not ideal.  But does anyone have real expereince with when an incline, even if very meticulously laid out, is still just too steep?

Peter

Drill track is another name for a yard lead.

Maybe it's me, but those "three long storage tracks" entail an Arrival/Departure track, 2 additional (all 3 tracks are double-ended, allowing sorting/run-around with ease), and a drill track for creating a consist.  Agree that it could include a caboose track, an RIP track and a service area.  But even without those items, this is a basic yard, is it not?  What am I missing??  Thanks!! 

Peter a few observations

#1 crossover on righr side of layout is the wrong way you can't leave the yard and get to the outer loop without a back up move it would be much better if you used two right turnouts.

#2 your grade is going to be more than 4.8%, going from 0 to 4.8% at that turnout on the right is going to give you nothing but problems. you should have a vertical easement curve at both ends of the grade and the same amount on both sides of the top.

#3 the siding at the top has the same problem if you connect it at the top of your grade.

#4 where is the layout viewed /operated from?

#5 is it three rail or two?

#6 do you want to mainly store trains or do you want an operating yard where you make and break up trains

#7 how long are the normal trains  you are planning on running?

Galon 

It just occurred to me - is everyone assuming the double main crosses over and then under the yard tracks, as shown in Jerry Noaln's post (the red line)?  NO, that's not the case!  The double main crosses over the yard at both intersection points, at a constant height, like one big overpass.  The mains decline on the left side as they go down and around the bottom left "S" curves.

Galon, the yard was designed to attach to the inner main, for a natural reversing loop.  Agree that a train entering the main from the right side will not be able to access the outer loop without a cross-over (just haven't yet decided where).  This is a 3-rail layout.  The yard will be mostly for creating consists/playing train solitaire.  I plan to have a lower "level" - 3 unseen very long parallel tracks under the table for storage. 

So, is a 4.8% incline just too much?  I was hoping for 2-3% - hence the reason I'm asking for inputs/advice. 

Peter

Peter,

IMO your yard looks fine, I only question the double-slip switch.  The reason is they're very expensive.

Have you thought of installing a turntable?

Here's a drawing of the old Seaboard Air Line yard that was here in town:

Peter,

I'm still having a tough time seeing where your grades are only 5% or so as I implied on your other thread.

On the right hand side, I only see about 9 feet of run for the main to duck down under the yard. Plus, don't forget, you need 18" or so for transitions into and out of the grade. That's over a 6% grade.

On the left hand side, you have that run around the curve, but you also have that short connector track just beyond the cut-off to the yard. That one seems to connect an upper level track to a lower level track in only about 6 feet or so. That grade is astronomical.

Maybe I'm missing something. Putting elevation numbers next to the tracks might eliminate some confusion on our part.

Jim

OK, I'll post it shortly with elevation numbers, but keep in mind that the double main doesn't go under the yard, it goes over the yard.  Will post shortly.

Thanks Bob for the Seaboard Air Line Yard - very helpful!!  I have considered a turntable and roundhouse and had done a ton of planning to ensure there was enough room to accommodate them at the right side of layout.  But with the upper level, not sure I will still have sufficient room on the sea level. 

I will also post the version with both upper and sea level too.  My only fear is that these plans don't translate to this forum page and people stop providing helpful advice/comments!

Peter

I think it looks fine myself.  My layout is a variation of your sea level line in 20' X 10'

If you can, I'd really like to see all 3 levels and how it comes together.  I also would stay away from the double slipper.  They can be slippery.  Keep in mind a decent sized turntable & roundhouse will take up a lot of real estate- around 5' X 6' give or take.

Yes, I realized that --- meant to say the main went over the yard in my previous post. But, that still doesn't change the fact that the grades appear to be very steep on both ends of the overpass.

It's a good looking plan otherwise - just don't want to see you disappointed by operation on the grades.

Jim

This forum is so helpful - I've been rationalizing the steep inclines, but the feedback here was like a blast of cold water to the face.  Made me sit and really tinker with the plan.  I found that I could extend the tracks that incline/decline so that grades are 3.4% or less everywhere - except for that upper left reverse track.  Yeah, I wanted that reversing loop, but frankly, it isn't necessary.  Just wanted an alternative to having to take the yard route for reversing.  I guess I can tinker some more or live without it.  Take a look and let me know what you all think please.  The worst grade is 3.4% and all others are lower than 3% - this is acceptable for smooth operation - right? 

The attached plan now includes the grade information and the upper level (still not totally finished, but close). 

Thanks ever so much to everyone contributing to this thread. 

Peter  

Here's a hopefully better view of the plan:

Going back to some earlier comments about a turntable - you can see that I had planned space for it and a roundhouse on the right side of the plan.  The A/D track would have had a short track that trailed off on the top right of the yard to a sand/coal/water/ash area and turntable and roundhouse.  But then we decided to go with an attached upper level (upper level will be a mountain pass).  Unless I dig into the mountain footing for the roundhouse, I honestly don't think I can fit a decent sized turntable and roundhouse in that area any longer...??

Peter

3 1/2 % is pushing it.  Don't go any steeper than that.  You may be able to lengthen the leads and lower the incline if you tie into the main further down the track, no?  Maybe use curved switches and tie in further down on the inside loops.  I've never had a problem with Ross curved switches in operation. 

Peter,

Looks much better now. Those 3% grades should be no problem with all but the longest trains.

Even if that reverse loop link turns out to have very steep grades, it might still come in handy for operations. Maybe it could be used just to turn engines and a few cars at a time. Might make for some interesting moves.

Good luck with the build.

Jim

Many of the members on this forum have RRTrack, which is what you appear to be using, and thus posting the .rrt file will allow others to doodle with your plan and possilbly give you better suggestions.  Just a thought...

3-3 1/2 % works.  But another point is, you don't want the tracks starting the incline & decline right at the switch, so take into account a little flat before going up or down.  It would be nice if you could spread it out a little.  I think you can actually-put the switch on the righthand lead on the first straight in back-go inside your inner main track and connect it there-put the switch for the lefthand lead on the first curve that curves back to the inside-again following your inner main track.  These are regular switches so you can use the Atlas.  But, looking at it, you will have to have a smaller diameter track for those 2 runs because there are no straights in the loops.  That may not be an issue because your upper loops are definitely a smaller diameter than on the sealevel.  

I'm not sure if I like 'I'll find out how bad these are shortly, I'm hoping for the best' ...  But that being said, I sure hope you build this because it is a great layout. 

Great idea - how would I post the file?  Thanks.

Thanks Jim.

William 1 - thanks for the kind words.  Of course, if I'm being honest, it could have more sidings and I wish I had the space for one of those awesome Millhouse turntables and that incredibly realistic resin roundhouse someone just brought to market (the youtube link is in this forum).

Anyone know how I can post the rr-track file?  Would totally appreciate anyone tinkering too.  This is my first ever layout attempt, so I'm very open to suggestions. 

Peter

Peter,

Just attach the .rrt file to a post the same as you would a photo. Click the "Add Attachments" link at the bottom and select your file to upload. 

Jim

A turntable is overrated.  I like your double sided yard with the one track for working on.  It's practical for an O Gauge railroad.  It will be easy to work with and just enough storage for your layout.  Being overly complicated is a bad idea.   Build something you can get up & running fairly quickly and something you can maintain in the long run.  This is a good plan.  I would try to lengthen the yard leads as I said, and of course have some switches off the mainlines for industry and purpose.  If you live in the Chicago area, I will help you build it. Have you running in 7 days. Cheers

OK, I think I did this right - here's the file.  Thanks!

Hey William - I wish I was in Chicago - I would totally take you up on your offer - thanks! 

Actually, I'm in the Hartford, Connecticut area.  Gotta say, undertaking this project as a first-timer is a little daunting.  I don't know anyone in the area who is actively doing this.  So, since I got back into trains about 7-8 months ago (first time since I was like 10) I've just been reading, reading, reading, and talking sporadically to LHS guy (but he's the type where you ask him for what minimum cross-over clearance height and he tries to sell you a plastic trestle set - lol).

Peter 

To be honest Peter, that's all it takes.  I've undertaken projects lately that I've been reading about for 10 years.  Scenery, etc.  I have found that it works just like they say it does.  If you have some talent, it will work for you.  I hope you build it.  You are on the right track.   Best of luck.

This thing looks like a nightmare to me. Why does the double main line cross over the yard in the first place? It looks like you have plenty of room, why not move it south and avoid all of the clutter over top of the yard?

Big Jim - Space constraints - there is a closet forcing me to go narrow (need to be at less than 4' for the entire middle section).  Plus, as I said earlier, it creates a natural reversing loop.  And, I think a grade crossing has a certain amount of charm. 

Jim P. - followed link to your layout videos - amazing!!

By the way, the left side will be a NYC urban/city-scape (no skyscrapers), with an Elevated subway line (not shown in track plan I provided), the middle/narrow section is to be the mid-west section (the yard will represent that gynormous yard out west in - Missouri is it?), with the right side to have mountains and giant sequoias, and maybe that concrete viaduct style bridge at Big Sur. Talk about dynamic compression! Well, that's the idea. Let's see how it looks once I start laying things out.   

All- I know double slips are not favored.  What about Ys?  Are they reliable or should I try avoiding them too?  After tinkering, I found a spot that could use one, but wanted thoughts from those with experience.

Thanks again.

Peter

Peter,

Charm I can understand, but, you have effectively put the yard down into a canyon of sort.

Peter,

I have an Ross 054 Wye on my layout:

I use all Caboose Industries ground throws and had to use an extension wire so I could move the throw away from the Wye.  I had a couple of engines that were hitting it, but then again I'm also using fixed pilots on all my engines.

Other than having to move the throw away from the Wye, the Wye itself has performed just fine, my largest engine that will go on it is a GP9, 054 curves are too tight for my Williams E7 with fixed pilot.  If you can, go 072 or larger.

Yeah, that's true.  Hadn't thought about it like that before, so I thought about what you said a lot today. 

FYI - Have been working on a plan for many months before settling on this.  Before it, I was entertaining something like the preliminary track plan attached below.  But it too isn't ideal. And it doesn't allow the opportunity to grow the yard on the right end into a RIP track or turntable area like my current plan does.  I guess my current plan isn't ideal, but I think it's the best I can come up with to maximize use of my space...

thanks for the input everyone.

Peter

Peter,

Why not put the yard on the inside? It would be very helpful to see what actual space is available to work with.

Big Jim - want minimum 072 curves.  Last yard track in "prelim" scheme is 054. 

The space is 33' long, but shaped like a square-cornered letter "C" that's laid on its side, or the top half of a cut-in-half square "O." The left side has 13' of usable width (layout and aisle) and can go 14' deep; the middle (area where layout goes down to like 3' in schematic) is limited in depth to 5' (layout and aisle) by the stairs/closet; the right side has a "soft" depth limit of 8' because its running into the finished side of the basement.   

I've been through this thread several times but may have missed it.  Here is an HO site that covers yard design, all is applicable.  I believe this site came from our webmaster.

http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

It explains many of the yard concepts well.  I wish I had the room to do one right.  Am trying to stuff a switch back in to keep my logging grades down to 5% for geared locomotives and short trains.

Dan

quote:

Big Jim - want minimum 072 curves.

Peter,

Assumimg that the main line tracks are no sharper than 072, if you do some more fiddling, you will find that you can have 072 mainlines and a yard in the middle where you can do something useful with it. Namely, provide an engine terminal that doesn't have to go out on the mainline in order to get to the awaiting trains.