New Basement, New Layout

Oh sweet.  How nice it is to have a basement.  

Congratulations!  Ahh the thrill of planning a new model railroad!  Enjoy.

Art

Wonderful space indeed. You might get better results posting your question in the Track Planning and Layout Design forum.

Good luck.

Bob

I wish I had that much space!  Going to be great!

Must be nice to have a basement. Out West here we rarely see basements. Is it climate controlled.

Nice. Sadly, basements in California and other parts of the Southwest were hunted to near extinction after WWII.

Curious How come no basements out west?

Clem

All that space looks great.  I hope to be in your shoes someday!  Best of luck with the new project.

- Mike

Yes it I, and thanks for that tip, I might just do that.

@phill- yes it will be climate controlled and I do plan on installing a drop ceiling, and the furnace was just replaced a month ago so I don't have to think about that.

I, too, wonder why no basements out west.  With CBS news addressing sinkholes in

Fla. and elsewhere, I can guess high watertables and porous sedimentary rock are

the reasons Fla. has down elevators, but why no basements in the southwest?

Going back to your original post, I would do some type of around the wall layout to maximize the space. Access to furnace, electrical box etc. must be figured into the equation.

That's what I had in mind. THe Good news about the furnace is that is brand new, so i dont have to replace it anytime soon. 

WOW!  Every O'Gauger's dream - a big empty basement.  That's like an artist with a new canvas.

Many homes built before WWII actually had basements as people building the homes were used to building with them.

Out here, though, we don't get a frost line issue, so you don't have to build below it so as the old homes were torn down, they weren't built with basements. It's also quicker and cheaper to build without them. A lot of homes were built on foundations with a crawl space underneath after the war (essentially a brick, stone or cinder block perimeter wall with internal footings for the support beams), but more modern construction is on concrete slabs with the house framing bolted down because of earthquakes (a lot of homes slid off their foundations or had the foundation "walls" damaged). I lived in a house that had central heating and the furnace was in a deep crawl space. My current house has the furnace in a "closet" so I don't know what the deal was with the prior house.

Most model railroads I've seen out here are in the "California Basement" (garage), a spare bedroom, or in a separate building in the back yard. Joe Lesser had his in the living room.

In a model railroad context, I've heard of people going under the house and deepening the crawl space to accommodate a new layout. It's an involved process as you have to build up additional supporting structure against the foundation to keep it from collapsing.

Nice space. Even though your furnace is new, you'll need to leave at least 3' of access around it for service, etc. It's good the water heater is directly adjacent as it will help minimize that access space. Even a new furnace will need a tuneup after a couple years service for greatest efficiency (think spiders!).

If you're finishing the walls, especially if you live in a colder area, consider 2x4 on the flat, with 1" (R7) or 1½" (R10) foil-faced rigid extruded foam board between them, covering the exterior masonry walls. Then cover with drywall. Use a pressure treated bottom plate and hold the drywall ½" off the foor. Do not use a plastic vapor barrier behind the foam, it will cause mold to form. This method saves floor space from a nominal 4" deep wall.

I strongly encourage you to consider an around the walls design. You will have longer runs and still leave space in the center for living, etc.

Good luck.

Thanks for that tip, I will keep that in mind. I do plan on adding a drop ceiling. Not sure if i want to go multi-deck or not, but definitely will be doing a around the walls plan. 

The difficult part is where to put the yard. I'm planning doing a stub ended yard, don't really have the room for a double ended yard. 

Coupla thoughts....

You may wish to consider spray in ISO foam.  Aprox 7R value per inch plus it seals off draft & bug intrusion plus is a great sound attenuator.  Keep wire runs clean.   

Depending on your market the cost installed is considerably less then other less efficient systems.  Typically the thicker the foam and larger the job the lower cost per square foot.

As far as thickness, consider your climate.  I use a fully filled 3 1/2" void for basements in the Delaware Valley tri-state area.  It must be full covered by dry wall to meet code.  110/220 wiring should be in conduit.

What ever you are going to do about the ceiling and backdrops do it early on.

Tom,

There are D-I-Y spray foam packages available. A lot less cost than hiring an installer. Having an open wall to spray in is a dream!

In my home I had to use 2 part slow rise foam into a 3/4" space between the existing masonry wall and drywall, fed using 5/8" ID tubing, in each bay between furring! Not an easy process.

Hmm, if it's in my budget I might think about that. I do live in Michigan, so insulation couldn't hurt. 

I did actually go to school for architecture so I am knowledgeable about the building trades. 

My timeline is that I hope to move in by next month, and start construction on the layout probably around the fall. I plan doing my bench work in a sectional form since I don't think this will be my only home. (i'm only 26) 

but thank you guys for the helpful tips. 

I've never heard of anyone doing this, but if it is feasible and not outrageously expensive, it sure would alleviate my space problem!!  

Several years ago OGR featured a half basement / half crawl space home where the father and son dug walkways into the crawl space for stand up walk in access and built the benchwork directly above the raised portion of earth.  Looked kind of decent.

Getting back to the original question  of a track plan, outstanding needed information would include type(s) of industries, terrain anticipated,  to include narrow gauge, wharf/waterfront, loco roster, totally point to point or roundy round, etc etc???

Besides few basements out West we also  have few attics. Builders poured flat slabs and two days later started a house on them. It is lousy that builders couldn't pitch the roof and install boxed trusses for extra useable space but they are so bottom line and didn't give those  benefits to buyers. Walk in closets came late to the business. If one can find a house with a basement and in the hobby, Oh! happy days.   

May I suggest you dig out the 3 most recent issues of OGR? Jim Barrett is going step by step through what he is doing to prepare his basement for a layout. I've pretty much agreed with everything he has written, down to "Why didn't I do that?!!!" The one point where I do disagree with him is on the choice of color for the sky. Having done a layout with robin's egg blue, I will say "Never again!" For my most recent effort I used a much darker cobalt blue. This REALLY works! You can blend in white to make a haze close to the horizon, and any clouds you do really jump out instead of being blah. Try it. If you don't like it, paint it over with something else!

Comment: As others have said, do plan for insulation, heating, cooling, other utilities and access to everything when it breaks. You will thank yourself later.

Chris

LVHR

I'm also in Michigan.  Due to price and negligible difference in performance, I opted to put XPS foam right against the foundation wall verses spray foam.  Voids filled with spray foam (from a can or froth pack) and all seams taped with Tyvek tape.  Stud wall will be placed against the foam giving my lumber a thermal and capillary break from the cold wall.  The stud spaces will be filled with batt insulation.

Also, something to think about at point of purchase, as far as model RRers go, the difference between a  2000 sq ft ranch home and a 2000 sq ft two story home is an additional 1000 sq ft basement in the ranch. 

 My concaept is more of a point to point, with a continuous connection through the stairs. 

Since I'm a soo line, my scenery will be mainly midwest, Wisconsin, Michigans UP, etc.

And as far loco roster, now I only have a single Atlas O GP9, but in the future i dont plan on running anything bigger that. Same goes for rolling stock, nothing bigger than 60' cars. 

I see, that's a good tip. Where at in Michigan? 

unless you are using metal studding, a thermal break with wood studs is not necessary. wood is an excellent insulator and 3½" of it is more than enough.

batt insulation is useless at preventing air infiltration. however, except around any window openings a basement wall usually does not have air leakage... except if it's cracked open!

In addition, below the frost line the ground stays at about 48°, well above freezing. Not that you'd want to build a wall with varying levels of insulation.

As Tom says, ponder what you'd like to accomplish with your layout design. Jot down you preferences. A very good reference to purchase is John Armstrongs: Track Planning for Realisitc Operation. While you may not adhere to all of his tenents, the book is a practical look at planning and a must have tool.

OK, I fell for it...! While waiting around for some paperwork, I scribbled a very basic idea into the drawings of your basement.  I assumed a 66 inch radius, which would be very generous!  By reducing the radius, you can stretch out some scenes and widen aisles.  I would operate this a point to point with continuous capability.  The dotted areas are where I would consider hidden track to break up scenes and/or facilitate people movement.  the yard and spurs are representational to get a feel for ideas.  I know you model the SOO, but I didn't put any ideas into scenes or industries, as I have no idea of what you want.  As drawn, the yard would accommodate 10 to 15 cars per track.  Also, a 10 car train would only cover 1/4 of the "A" wall.  This would make for the appearance of a long track run.  This is all one level with no grades.  I put no thought into track work, but I would handlay this to maximize the fit with lots of curved turnouts.   The red lines are backdrop/dividers and stud walls.  Oh yeah, no duck under!

Hmm, looks pretty good for a quick sketch. Didn't really think that i could get a 60" min radius in. Only problem I for see would be area by the stairs. Depending on what I do my bench work at (thinking 42") there might be a problem with clearances, the base of the stairs faces wall E. 

But other than that, it does have potential. Although you mention this could be operated as point-to-point, how would that be achieved?

Well, a 60 inch radius would be 10 feet across, so I just used the "D" wall as the base with it's 13 foot width and went with it.  If I were to refine the plan I would vary the radius' to enhance the fit and form of the layout.  For a GP9 and 40/50ft cars, I would be comfortable tightening the radius as low as 45in in yards and industries! 

The stairs!  If it were me...!  The good news is that they don't look to be part of the supporting structure of the house.  I would widen the middle landing, and rotate the bottom 5 steps to parallel with the top steps.  Build a half wall on the side of the new landing that over looks the great scene in the corner of "E" and "C".  If the track height is designed right the track would pass across the landing on a minimum width shelf (with protection). 

To operate point to point...  Use the end of the yard next to the furnace as the "end of track" and the siding on the other side of the layout as the turn back point (run around).  I would also look for a way to drop a second track down grade at the end of this run around that would pass hidden behind and eventually under the yard to serve as staging.  That way operations would be from between yard and staging or from staging to yard and back.  

I didn't mention this earlier about the "closet" for the utilities.  I would use sliding doors or folding doors on the "A" and "B" sides in order to provide that sufficient "access" needed for maintenance.  Basically moving walls!  This allow one to reduce the clearance need for the appliances to a minimum.  This would need some thought and planning to account for the orientation of the appliances to ensure everything works and fits!

Last but not least!  Layout height!  This is a dynamic situation as there are several hard facts (celling and stairs measurements), variables (staging clearances) and personal preferences (comfortable or familiar viewing positions).  My personal thinking is that the visual is always the first consideration, after all this is a mostly visual hobby.  (I have never meet a blind modeler!)  With that in mind, I would look for a track height somewhere with in a range between 12 inches below and dead even of my eye balls!  This gives the most natural vision vantage point similar to the real world.   I'm 5'9" and my eyes are about slightly above 5ft off the floor.  That would set my base at 48 inches.  Next I would factor in depth of the model scenes.  With an around the wall layout, most of the scenes will be fairly shallow, not more than 24 inch deep.  At 48in, I can reach to the back of a 24in deep scene, your mileage may vary.  Lastly I would consider the fixed things like that stair case landing that needs crossed.  would my 48in clear it?  Also, what about the ceiling?  Is there enough "headroom" above the finished scene (remember to consider the height of buildings and, trees and mountains!) to allow for lighting?  I've seen some unique solutions to all of these, such as raised floors and scene selections (looking up at a bridge from water level).

Just some ideas!  Take a look at my friends layout.  He has addressed some of this too.  Visit aorailroad.com  This is an O scale 2 rail layout designed for operations.  

Now that you mention it, it does seem that it would be possible, and not overly difficult. I measured to the top of the landing, which comes out to 42", right about where I want my track work.

To operate point to point...  Use the end of the yard next to the furnace as the "end of track" and the siding on the other side of the layout as the turn back point (run around).  I would also look for a way to drop a second track down grade at the end of this run around that would pass hidden behind and eventually under the yard to serve as staging.  That way operations would be from between yard and staging or from staging to yard and back.

I see, that makes sense now. I was thinking about doing that and running my grade along "C", "B", and "A" and have about a 2% grade. I was thinking about putting in a reverse loop so that trains could be turned in the staging yard, seeing as how I don't think that I'll have enough room to put it a second entry/exit into staging. For separation I was thinking about doing 7.5"- 8".

I like the idea about the closet for the utilites, and  I would be using bifold doors, Not really a fan of pocket doors.

 Last but not least!  Layout height!  This is a dynamic situation as there are several hard facts (celling and stairs measurements), variables (staging clearances) and personal preferences (comfortable or familiar viewing positions).  My personal thinking is that the visual is always the first consideration, after all this is a mostly visual hobby.  (I have never meet a blind modeler!)  With that in mind, I would look for a track height somewhere with in a range between 12 inches below and dead even of my eye balls!  This gives the most natural vision vantage point similar to the real world.   I'm 5'9" and my eyes are about slightly above 5ft off the floor.  That would set my base at 48 inches.  Next I would factor in depth of the model scenes.  With an around the wall layout, most of the scenes will be fairly shallow, not more than 24 inch deep.  At 48in, I can reach to the back of a 24in deep scene, your mileage may vary.  Lastly I would consider the fixed things like that stair case landing that needs crossed.  would my 48in clear it?  Also, what about the ceiling?  Is there enough "headroom" above the finished scene (remember to consider the height of buildings and, trees and mountains!) to allow for lighting?  I've seen some unique solutions to all of these, such as raised floors and scene selections (looking up at a bridge from water level).

I'm about the same height, So I was thinking about in that 42-48" range should be sufficient, and at that height, that would give me about 50" of clearance to the bottom of the joists.

I plan on doing some cardboard mock ups before I start construction.

Regardless of the Track Plan you decide on, the first thing you must do is install a  Pool Table right in the middle of the floor area, then build the layout around it!

This way, when your roundhouse buddies are waiting in line to play Engineer, they can tear off a game of Nine Ball!  Your basement will be the center of attraction in the neighborhood, or the whole town!

(Don't forget a small fridge for the Beer.....) 

Cheers,

Bad Order

Shelby Township.

You have a great space to work with.  Make sure you don't have any leaks down there before you start building things.