New FRA Regs (?) affects 1225

I wonder what it is also.  Maybe something to do with weight?

I bet they leave the 1225 in Alma while the rest of the train continues to Clare.   My plan was to chase it from Clare back to Owosso.   

Disappointing for sure.  

The FRA requires all railroad bridges be "inspected" at specified intervals. In this particular case, someone doesn't believe the ORIGINAL Cooper Rating calculations from Lima Locomotive Works, for when 1225 was constructed. Thus, "someone" wants the Cooper Rating for 1225 re-calculated by a Register Professional Engineer!

Nothing like waiting until the fast minuet!

Thanks for the info Hot Water!

I looked up cooper rating on Wikipedia and here is the explanation.

Coopers Loading System

Cooper is also responsible for developing in 1894, a system of calculations and standards for the safe loading of railway (railroad) bridges. Cooper's loading system was based on a standard of E10, meaning a pair of 2-8-0 type steam locomotives, pulling an infinite number of rail cars. Each locomotive was given an axle loading of 10,000 pounds (4,536 kg) for the driving axles, 5,000 pounds (2,268 kg) for the leading truck, and 6,500 pounds (2,948 kg) for the tender trucks. Each trailing rail car was given an axle loading of 1,000 pounds per foot (1,488 kg/m) of track. During the 1880s, railway bridges were built using an equivalent rating of E20. By 1894, when Cooper presented his standard, he recommended a standard of E40, or four times the E10 standard. By 1914, the standard had increased to E60. By the mid 1990s, the American Railway Engineering Association was recommending E72 (7.2 times the E10 standard) for concrete structures, and E80 for steel structures.

I wonder what bridge the 1225 can not use.  

Looks like the 1225 will only pull the train from Carland to Owosso.  About a 30 min train ride behind steam.   

Calculating the dynamic argument of a steam locomotive would require knowing the weights of many of the moving parts of the engine.  In some cases, it is required to know the weight of each of end of a part.  It would also require knowledge of the balance weights on the drivers.  It is unlikely that all of this data is currently available and it would be a real challenge to development it.  The issue could be over come by just applying a speed restriction on the bridges in question.  

I know this isn't the 1225 group's fault but I would be none to happy if I were going on this excursion.

How many times has the 1225 crossed this bridge?  The 765 and 1225 both went over it together in 2010!   

Could be the group's fault if they didn't dot all the "I"s and cross all the "T"s in the planning stage.  But I agree that I wouldn't be a particularly happy camper if I had signed on to make the trip.

As I remember, dynamic augment has nothing to do with the Cooper Rating for RR bridge design & construction. 

Depending how for this suspect bridge is from Owosso, SP 4449 went over a number of times back in 2009.

  Wait no more!  Here's a very nice, fast minuet courtesy of Luigi Boccherini!  Now, let the train roll! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN-uGY8mpfU

Kent in SD

The SRI has made many trips over this line without it being any issue.   Almost every long excursion that the 1225 makes takes this line up to Alma then other parts north.  

The 4449, 765, 1225 all have been over this line.   What changed now?  Some rule that was made up this year?   

I hope the new calculations show that the original Lima Locomotive Works calculations were accurate. 

I was pretty bummed that I didn't get my act together in time to go on this significant trip.  However, for the price paid, I would have been pretty upset with the last minute change in plans.  I am very curious just went wrong.  If someone finds out more, please share.

Imagine how unhappy the man behind Railyard Productions is...  Been there, done that - sponsoring a charter is full of unexpected obstacles.  I'd go if not just for support, but then I suppose the tickets are already paid for. 

I wonder if an alternate date was ever discussed or considered?  Maybe even an alternate route, though it seems things were already in motion at the destination point.

**** shame - regs and more regs.  The engine has gone over that bridge time and time again - God forbid they couldn't get a waiver, unless the point was in fact simply to stop the steam engine from running.  Why can't they get the engine weighed and then operate over the bridge in question at a mile an hour or so?

/Mitch

Eric

It had all to do with the Cooper Rating of the locomotive going over a bridge just outside of Carland.   

Cooper's Ratings deal with axle loadings and bridge spans. No dynamic augment enters the calculations. The 1225 has the same Cooper's rating today that she did when she left Lima - about an E-64. What changes is the length of the bridge span that is carrying the 64,000# axle load and the distance to the next axle carrying 64,000 pounds. So on the 1225, she has 4 drivers at 73" centers carrying 64,000# +/- each. Then the trailing truck - and then the tender which usually offers a more concentrated load on a bridge than the locomotive does.

 What also changes is the present condition of the bridge.

Editor Rich has reviewed with me the hundreds of possible combinations of the 765's Cooper's calculations when you have to consider the span of the bridge and it's current condition. Many bridges have had their ratings reduced with age and deferred maintenance.

Neil,

New, in terms of regulations, is the Federal Railroad Safety Act of 2008, with the final ruling on Bridge Safety Standards occurring on July 15, 2010 and effective on September 13, 2010, specifically 49 CFR Parts 213 and 247.

Bottom line is that track owners or assignees have five years from 9/13/2010 to implement a bridge management program and produce documentation and records, which includes a railroad engineer or railroad bridge inspectors report recognized by the FRA in compliance with the "new" regulations.

The regulation in the hyperlink above will provide you with some interesting reading.

One of the grand kids woke me up and then went back to sleep. I couldn't and needed something to do in the wee hours.

The PM 1225 with tender is close to 800,000 lbs with fuel and water compared to less than 300,000 lbs for a GP38-2.

It's probably a good idea to know a bridge can handle it.

Total weight is not necessarily a factor, so comparing the total weight of a steam locomotive versus a diesel locomotive WITHOUT taking into account the number of axles carrying all that weight, is not valid. For example, if #1225 has a maximum axle load of 64,000 pounds, per axle, while a diesel (GP40-2 or SD40-2) has an axil load ov 68,000 pounds, then the diesel is actually "harder" on a bridge than the #1225. Even a lighter weight SD40-2, at only 389,000 pounds, has an axle load of 64,833 pounds, which is still higher than #1225.

There were cases that some reailroads kept some smaller steamers around for some time for very light branchline rail and bridges bridges.  These small steamers were easier of these bridges than even the lightest GP-7 or 9. 

Agree with all the above and bummer this came up at last minute.  But given deferred maintenace and maybe cursory look-see of the bridge span and steel, all it might take is just the right moment the driver pounds a critical joint/rivet/hairline crack and bingo accident.  The fact that all the various steamers have crossed that bridge without problems is analogous to prediciting the next coin flip result based on all previous flip outcomes.

Granted this detail should have been attended to awhile ago, but maybe best if this issue is looked at again using modern engineering practices and structual analysis.

Is the 1225 group responsible for maintaining the bridge?

Rusty

In a sue-happy world we live in, you can't be too cautious. SRI's fault, probably not. Host railroad... someone may have dropped the ball on an inspection, but being as the great lakes area has had a record winter, you can't be too harsh on anyone. At least the excursion happened, unlike the one out of Fort Wayne to Peru IN. with the 765 group in the '80's that was cancelled the day of the trip.

Did anyone who was there speak to anyone from the group about this and garner anymore information?

No they are not. However, part of SRI's operational responsibility is to make sure that everything is OK with the railroad several weeks in advance of the first trip each year.

When we took the 765 to North Judson, Indiana the first time, we faced this issue. The 765 was too heavy for a small bridge on the line that had been de-rated down to a Cooper rating below what the 765 required. But we discovered that problem MONTHS before we were to go there. The railroad ultimately measured the bridge deflection with a 286,000 pound freight car on it and from that developed a plan of action to repair the bridge.

In this situation, either someone dropped a ball or the railroad was trying to send them a message. I doubt the latter because the Great Lakes Central has been host to a LOT of steam events. I have always enjoyed working with those guys and look forward to seeing them again in June.

My Dad and I just returned from going on the Pere Marquette fan trip.I was disappointed that the engine was only being used for a short distance of the trip.I still enjoyed seeing what little I could of the engine run.What personally irritated me was that they did not do a run by.They also could not be bothered to turn the engine all the way around on the turntable so steam engine fans could take a nice picture of the front of the engine on the turntable.After paying $125.00,waiting many months,and driving 300 miles,I would have liked to have seen the engine more.I wonder why they couldn't be bothered to do a run by,especially since the engine was hardly used on the trip.

Dan

How strange,the tickets I bought to ride the 1225 on 3-15-2014 were for an opportunity to ride behind the first run of the engine in four years(I thought).I just found this video on You Tube of the 1225 running a what appears to be a paying customer run three months ago.Why did I pay $125.00 to ride behind the 1225 for 12 minutes in March 2014 when I could have just bought a ticket from the museum for a fraction of the cost in December 2013 and ridden it for what appears to be a much longer ride with no ugly diesels?The money I spent on the tickets went to getting the engine going again,which I was happy to contribute to.But the way the 3-15-2014 fan trip was marketed and handled was poor. 

Dan

Did you ask anyone from SRI about any of these things to hear what they had to say about it?...Just curious.

An excellent suggestion. You might also contact Rail Yard Productions, the actual sponsors of that trip, and voice your concerns/complaints directly to them.

To be honest,I just wanted to enjoy the day and seeing the engine as best I could.The SRI staff were very friendly and did everything possible to make the trip enjoyable.There were some issues I had with the way the trip was executed,but I assume the problems will be resolved for future fan trips. 

Dan

I gotcha, I am sure SRI is doing everything they can to resolve the problem they faced on this trip.

After all the griping on this thread, I think we should keep one thought in mind.  Being able to actually SEE a steam locomotive in operation in the 21st Century is a privilege.  Consider the steamboat Delta Queen, which although sound operationally, was absolutely BANNED from operation by the Feds due simply to its age. (When will they ban Model T's from ALL public highways?) I am amazed that mobile pressure vessels are actually allowed to operate in this day and age. 

Point 2:  You have to accept the fact that bureaucrats are only concerned with enforcing the RULES, regardless of whether they apply to reality. Individual judgment will not be tolerated.

Define "banned"?  Does that mean you cannot place passengers on the DELTA while she is running, can't steam up at all, can't allow anybody on her at any time.......And some of that could be some PC because of the time period we equate the DELTA with.

Dan986 you're incorrect on buying a ticket to the museum and being able to ride behind the 1225 for that price. The rides in December were the North Pole Express and the tickets were not the museum admission price.

Ron

From what I have seen online that the issue pertaining to the bridge will be cleared up by the time Tranexpo starts in June.  

I erred.  The real reason for Delta Queen being prohibited from carrying passengers is its wood superstructure, although it is fully equipped with a sprinkler system. It is currently being used as a floating hotel in Chattanooga. There is a bill in Congress to allow her to carry passengers again.

Hi Folks,

 Let's be fair to bureaucrats.  When I was in the Navy we had a saying that the "rules" are written with blood.  Experience had shown over and over that violating the "rules" leads to injury or death.  

Unfortunately, we had sailors who sometimes violated the "rules" by not wearing a safety harness when climbing above the deck or not checking a void for poison gas before entering it or not following the procedure to light off a boiler, etc.

We have a rule in CA that prohibits texting while driving.  A driver violated the rule last week and two innocent people are dead.  The texting driver was uninjured.  

There are many situations where individual judgement cannot and should not be tolerated.    

Joe