New MTH F3s

WOW, that Maine Central looks AWESOME!  Everything on all of these just looks so crisp and perfect.

Both look great!  Again, I love how the Maine Central has the low fans and the Erie has high fans!  The stripes on the pilots look great!

No hijacking required!

Thanks!

- Mario

I have the brand "X" models so I cannot comment without being biased.   MTH did do a nice job on these.  Having done a majority of the research on brand "X's" version, outside of the first F3s delivered with 3 porthole windows, the other 4 phases of F3 production can be covered with one tool and proper application of details such as the fans, grilles, etc.

Would love to see the Milw Rd version if anyone has them and can take a few pics.....

My CNJ A-B pair (with scale-wheels) arrived from Mr. Muffin’s on Saturday and I just had a chance to open them this evening.  These are my first 2-rail MTH cab unit purchases.  I really like the fixed pilots!

IMO, MTH did a fantastic job on these.  The paint job is superb...and there was no damage or broken parts.  I hope to run them one night this week, time permitting.  In the meantime, I grabbed a few quick shots with my iPhone.

MTH is already sold out on these, but fortunately I was able to find the other 2-rail powered “A” unit at the Public Delivery Track.  I received the shipping notice from Beth this evening.  I’m looking forward to running the A-B-A set.

CNJ 1601,

There's a set of twins in en route to my house.  "Stunning" is about all I can say.

@Rapid Transit Holmes posted:

There's a set of twins in en route to my house.  "Stunning" is about all I can say.

RTH...if I'm not mistaken, when these were first announced you posted somewhere that you were planning to pre-order them.  I think you'll be very happy with your decision!

Someone mentioned recently here on the Forum how impressed they were with MTH getting small details correct right down to the end of their existence (at least as we've known it).  I couldn't agree more with that statement.

I'm sure holes can be poked somewhere...such as MTH's tooling not being exactly correct for a particular "phase" of F3's that were owned by a certain railroad.  However, the paint and lettering application on these CNJ F's was obviously researched thoroughly by someone at MTH--and then properly executed at the production facility in China.

For example...comparing the MTH model to actual paint diagrams and photos of the original "toothpaste" scheme (adopted by the CNJ for its road diesels in the very late 1940's and throughout the 1950's, replacing the as-delivered tangerine & blue scheme on the F3's), the upper stripes converge just as they should at the top of the "Miss Liberty" herald on the nose...and that herald is appropriately larger than the nose door opening.  And the lower stripes converge in a point at the bottom of the front pilot, just as they did on the real CNJ F's.

We tend to not be very shy about pointing out how many things the manufacturers/importers get wrong...so I figured why not talk about some of the things they got right.  Thanks, MTH!

                              MTH ERIE F3 ( SMART DUMMY ) from Muffins!

What do you guys make of this?  I received my NYC Cigar Band F3's.  The B Unit doesn't match.  Check out the fans.  The A unit has the taller fans and the B unit has fans that are molded in.  These are the only F3's I own.  The catalog picture shows the same fans on the A's and B's (the taller units).  Is this something MTH has done in the past or is this a screw up?

Also, look at the difference in these gaps between the B unit and front/back A units.  I think they're shipping F7 B units with these:

@MikeH posted:

Also, look at the difference in these gaps between the B unit and front/back A units.  I think they're shipping F7 B units with these:

That's because of the electro-coupler on the B unit.

Rusty

How come the diaphragms don't touch? I can understand on a curve but these are on a straight.

How is the crew supposed to move from one unit to the next? I guess they'll have to step on the couplers which probably violates safety protocols. I suspect that a running jump between locomotives is out of the question too.

@catnap posted:

How come the diaphragms don't touch? I can understand on a curve but these are on a straight.

How is the crew supposed to move from one unit to the next? I guess they'll have to step on the couplers which probably violates safety protocols. I suspect that a running jump between locomotives is out of the question too.

Apparently someone in china lost the tooling for the shorter electrocoupler. The last several offerings of Lionel ABA units have the same issue. Far and uneven coupler spacing.

Its odd. I used to own a set of TMCC F7's Lionel offered back in 2005. The A unit had an electrocoupler front and rear and the B unit had a rear electrocoupler and the spacing was so close the diaphrams nearly touched and the gap between the A's and B was even and close.

@NickRiv posted:

Didn't want to hijack the NYC F3 thread, so here are some pics of two other newly delivered MTH F3s.  I went in to my LHS with the intent of buying a few more LED Christmas cars and walked out with a MEC F3AB set.

While some importers/manufacturers keep missing the boat on colors and separate details, MTH keeps raising the bar...even now.

Wow! That Maine Central F3 looks awesome. I may have to get a set of the Powered As.

Pat

These are the finest three rail F3s that I have ever seen. I ran my Maine Central version for the first time today. Very smooth, perfect speed control, excellent horn, bell and lights. The paint and other aspects of the assembly are flawless. MTH does a great job.

MELGAR

Real NYC 1633 & 1635 were F3 A units.

According to the MTH Premier F3 & F7 Operator’s Manual that came with my new CNJ powered A-unit, the non-powered B-units should have non-operational (short) couplers on both ends.  If MkeH’s B-unit has a Proto-Coupler, it might me a factory error...or possibly an intentional “running change” made by MTH without updating the manual.

As you can see in the photo I took of page 5, MTH addresses the large vs. small “gap” issue by including a non-operating (short) coupler with the powered A-units.  The following 3 pages of the manual show how to remove the long Proto-Coupler from the rear of the powered A-unit and replace it with the shorter, non-operating coupler to shrink the gap.  Guess it pays to look at the manual!

As for me, I purchased the scale-wheeled versions.  As mentioned in my post above, I’ve already received one powered A-unit and the non-powered B-unit...and the other powered A-unit is on its way.  I won’t have to worry about that big gap with scale couplers on all 3 units!

@catnap posted:

How is the crew supposed to move from one unit to the next? I guess they'll have to step on the couplers which probably violates safety protocols. I suspect that a running jump between locomotives is out of the question too.

Not all F-Units retained their diaphragms:

Rusty

@CNJ #1601 posted:

According to the MTH Premier F3 & F7 Operator’s Manual that came with my new CNJ powered A-unit, the non-powered B-units should have non-operational (short) couplers on both ends.  If MkeH’s B-unit has a Proto-Coupler, it might me a factory error...or possibly an intentional “running change” made by MTH without updating the manual.

As you can see in the photo I took of page 5, MTH addresses the large vs. small “gap” issue by including a non-operating (short) coupler with the powered A-units.  The following 3 pages of the manual show how to remove the long Proto-Coupler from the rear of the powered A-unit and replace it with the shorter, non-operating coupler to shrink the gap.  Guess it pays to look at the manual!

As for me, I purchased the scale-wheeled versions.  As mentioned in my post above, I’ve already received one powered A-unit and the non-powered B-unit...and the other powered A-unit is on its way.  I won’t have to worry about that big gap with scale couplers on all 3 units!

Finally had a chance to take a second look at this.  No.  My B-unit does not have a proto-coupler.  Both sides of the B-unit are indeed dummy couplers.

My Powered A has the longer proto-coupler hence the larger gap.  The Nonpowered A has a dummy coupler.  Where the Nonpowered A meets the Nonpowered B, the result is the smaller gap.  If I had two powered A's, the gap would be the same.

I understand that now so I shouldn't have brought that up.  Forget the couplers.

Here is what I believe is the real issue: I think MTH shipped F7 B units for the supposed NYC F3 B's.

I own F7's from the last catalog.  Here are some comparison pics.

F7 B Unit from 2019 Vol. 2:

New NYC F3 B Unit from 2020 Vol. 2:

And finally, the F3 A units from 2020 Vol. 2:

What do you think?

@MikeH posted:

What do you guys make of this?  I received my NYC Cigar Band F3's.  The B Unit doesn't match.  Check out the fans.  The A unit has the taller fans and the B unit has fans that are molded in.  These are the only F3's I own.  The catalog picture shows the same fans on the A's and B's (the taller units).  Is this something MTH has done in the past or is this a screw up?

The MTH item description for it reads F7 B-unit.

"F-7 B-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered) - New York Central (Cigar Band)Cab No.: 1635"

Can the fan section be removed and replaced with the high fan version?

1635 was an F3A

New York Central (thedieselshop.us)

NEW YORK CENTRAL DIESEL ROSTER (20m.com)

Looks like the NYC never had an F3B. ??? So MTH is correct in selecting an F7B but the 1635 road number stated above is in question.

FYI to all – The fine print of mail order…

Some dealers state, if we receive a defective item or you are not satisfied, we will have to pay a 15% restocking fee on top of return shipping to send it back. If you pre-ordered the item, and don’t want it, you won’t get back the original deposit either.

So basically, I would say, best to deal directly with MTH or fix it yourself.

@BobbyD posted:

The MTH item description for it reads F7 B-unit.

"F-7 B-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered) - New York Central (Cigar Band)Cab No.: 1635"

Can the fan section be removed and replaced with the high fan version?

If you look at the phase diagram (not 100% accurate for every unit built in the timeframe), the later 1600 F3 numbers would have been delivered with low fans.  So the number is correct to have the low fans.  but @SIRT is correct, as the number is incorrect.  The F3Bs, as well as all the NYC F unit boosters, were numbered in the 2400-series.  (The details for the "F7B" in the photo above are also incorrect, as the F7s didn't have the roof top mesh dynamic brake vents, so its a late production B unit.)

So, to make a long story short, and I didn't want to get into it... There are no as-built road numbers correct for these MTH models.

The NYC didn't have any F3s built for freight using the louvered side panels, they all had chicken wire.

Atlas made a similar error with their first generation F3B units, with the exception that the NYC didn't have F3Bs without the continuous mesh grille along the top of the unit.

Again, I'm sorry.

- Mario

(Edited for corrections - I was incorrect about the 3500-series F3A and 3600-series F3B unit details; they indeed had tall fans and mesh side panels.  It does look like at least one of them was converted to low roof top fans and a freight pilot before conversion into a freight unit, but still don't believe that it made it into the cigar band paint scheme.)

@BobbyD posted:

The MTH item description for it reads F7 B-unit.

"F-7 B-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered) - New York Central (Cigar Band)Cab No.: 1635"

Can the fan section be removed and replaced with the high fan version?

You can buy individual high fan cowls from P&D Hobby and install them after removing the low fan cowls; i.e., drill out the existing ones and install the high versions.  Did this and added a third porthole when creating CB&Q AB pair (the A unit being an F2) using LIONEL PW F unit shells a couple of decades ago:

@CentralFan1976 posted:

If you look at the phase diagram (not 100% accurate for every unit built in the timeframe), the later 1600 F3 numbers would have been delivered with low fans.  So the number is correct to have the low fans.  but @SIRT is correct, as the number is incorrect.  The F3Bs, as well as all the NYC F unit boosters, were numbered in the 2400-series.  (The details for the "F7B" in the photo above are also incorrect, as the F7s didn't have the roof top mesh dynamic brake vents, so its a late production B unit.)

So, to make a long story short, and I didn't want to get into it... There are no as-built road numbers correct for these MTH models.

The NYC didn't have any F3s built for freight using the louvered side panels, they all had chicken wire.

Atlas made a similar error with their first generation F3B units, with the exception that the NYC didn't have F3Bs without the continuous mesh grille along the top of the unit.

Again, I'm sorry.

- Mario

(Edited for corrections - I was incorrect about the 3500-series F3A and 3600-series F3B unit details; they indeed had tall fans and mesh side panels.  It does look like at least one of them was converted to low roof top fans and a freight pilot before conversion into a freight unit, but still don't believe that it made it into the cigar band paint scheme.)

My guess was he wants, and expected?, the high fans. I understand the MTH tool may or may not be accurate for all the F's and am willing to accept the manufacturers are constrained there to keep costs down.

As to what they can control, can't repeat here what my friend said when his long awaited Lionel Texas & Pacific F's arrived painted Electric Blue and Silver rather than the correct colors. Part of it was "It wouldn't have been more off if they'd have made it Red and Green!!" or when he viewed their "Red" N&W J's and said how relieved he was at not preordering one. Maybe they all could better explain what will be built.

Found this site interesting.

http://www.dtw.20m.com/nycdieselroster.htm

@BobbyD posted:

My guess was he wants, and expected?, the high fans. I understand the MTH tool may or may not be accurate for all the F's and am willing to accept the manufacturers are constrained there to keep costs down.

This exactly.  I ordered an F3 ABA.  Instead I received a F3 AA with a non-matching F7B.  I'm not concerned about fidelity to prototype.  I just wanted what MTH put in their catalog: matching F3 A & B units.

@BobbyD posted:

The MTH item description for it reads F7 B-unit.

"F-7 B-Unit Diesel (Non-Powered) - New York Central (Cigar Band)Cab No.: 1635"

The fact that MTH themselves changed the product description on their website after the fact, really ticks me off.

They got these from China, realized they were the wrong model, and changed the product description.  That's really poor behavior.  They didn't even change the title or the picture.  Good thing they can't go back and undo the catalogs or I'd be questioning my sanity.  Oh well.  I do like the AA's.  I'll see if I can return the B. 

I believe my new MTH Premier NY Central F3 A and B units have the same roof fans, and I got the correct F3 B unit, not an F7 B unit.

Here are the 1619 A unit and the 1633 B unit:

Here is the 1619 A unit:

And the 1633 B unit:

Arnold

I had a choice re the A units: either the 1617 or the 1619. I chose the 1619.

I tried the engine pre-order route. Never again. It takes too long for items to arrive. Some all arrive at the same time, costing a bunch as well. Going forward with potential new owners, I will have the dealer look over the engine prior to purchase.

The FINAL batch of MTH stuff is set for March. I will take the NY dock and a few PS-1 cars. We shall see what happens after that if all works out?

Waiting on my 2 missing RS-11 fuel filler pipes and diamond plate decking strips from Andy.

@Arnold D. Cribari posted:

I believe my new MTH Premier NY Central F3 A and B units have the same roof fans, and I got the correct F3 B unit, not an F7 B unit.

Here are the 1619 A unit and the 1633 B unit:

Arnold

Wow, Arnold.  Thanks!  Very weird.

NYC F3B units were numbered in the 2400 series.  The 1633 was an F3A.

I bought MEC 686 as part of MTH's a b a set then I found 681 powered stand alone. 681 misbehaved out of the box, grinding gears, jerky motion, temperamental headlight. The Maine power connector was half pulled out of the circuit board upon Inspection. Easy fix diy, since MTH doesn't even answer the phone now.

For those that are not happy with the fans, I'll offer a little input. Some F3's had tall fans, some had short fans. It depends when they were made. Another thing to note is that some roads bought F3's and F7's and the may not have bought B units in a particular model. They may have bought A units during the early production and the B units from the later production versions. Seeing different versions of F units is not unprototypical. If the non-uniformity bothers you, you may have to look around for earlier runs that may have had the B unit with the taller fan housings.