New ZW-L. Any tips?

Marty,

 

I had two Z4K's, and they were not enough for my layout, so I added a ZW-L when these came out. I was so pleased with the ZW-L that I bought another one to replace the two Z4K's, and it was a good decision. I am totally pleased with the two ZW'L's.

 

I have all the ZW-L handles set to maximum and the four outputs of each transformer thus provide 18.6V (rather constant level) to each input channel of my two TIU's.  I like their overcurrent sense feature for momentary shorts, etc. I run DCS and Legacy, but no conventional.

 

Alex

The key is the switch on the transformer which is set to either Command or Conventional.

 

When set to Command, it does as you suggest, all outputs respond to knob turning, halt works, I think stall and max can be set, etc.

 

When set to Conventional, the remote does not affect the outputs (and halt does not work), the transformer basically ignores the base, though TMCC/Legacy engines on the track will respond.

 

But we are drifting away from Marty's problem, which is a curious one.

 

-Dave

I've been working on becoming less smug and have been thinking getting a ZW L in conjunction with a Legacy Command set, I could pretend at least four loops on my conventional display are command control and that could help remove some smugness.

I think the above post has confused me just enough to take care of the problem and I'm gonna save some money.

 

I do not have the problem that you are having and I run my ZWL in engine mode to use my iPad to control the conventional engines. The only thing I can think of is there is a boot delay on Legacy which might cause this or try changing the momentum settings so the voltage reacts sooner rather than later to the remote.

Wow. Pretty impressive that Matthew waited so patiently for the opportunity to zing Marty on the smug comments.

 

 

Jeff

 

what are your settings under info?  

No zings, only sharing our mutual admiration for South Park with Marty, while exploring how I might add remote control to my small displays. But that topic is for another thread.

Marty has a great sense of humor that is contagious. He's Inspiring.

 

I enjoy some good nature ribbing.  If I can't take some zings, I shouldn't dish them out. 

Marty, considering your new experience with the ZW L what would you recommend for this situation...

To operate 4 loops with conventional trains using a Legacy command set you’d either need one ZW L or  4 PowerHouse power supplies to equal the power and 4 Legacy PowerMasters.

Using the MSRP the ZW L is $100 more at $899 vs the PH, PM combination at $800.  Looking at competitive pricing from forum sponsor’s websites you could find the ZW L or the PH, PM combination for about equal price.

It appears using the ZW L would be easier to install on an existing conventional setup.

So if one wanted to convert conventional 4 loop layout to remote operation of conventional trains would either of these setups be better than another or would you go with something else entirely?

Matt

 

Well when you put it that way...  The L would probably be easier to setup and get going for sure and would give you SMUG conventional operators a handle to hold onto.    But I believe your analysis is more correct than mine.  The ZW-L would probably be the wiser choice.  The only thing you'd loose is 720W vs 680.  IMO not enough to sway me away from the L with the facts you've stated.

 

Well played.  My only concern now is getting the ENG part working. 

Just chiming in, that sounds exactly like what that transformer was made for.  Running four conventional loops with a CAB2.  All in one cool, neat looking package.  I think I should get one for the standard gauge empire I'm going to put together some day.  Until then, I've got my bricks, TPCs, ARC, powermasters, and accessory transformer. Which all work great, but I can see the functionality of having them all inclusive.  Enjoy your transformer! 

 

 

Marty,

 

The Pgh. Ind. Hi-Railers have been using the ZW-L for a while now and here's my $0.02.

 

I seem to remember similar strange behavior when high-number engine ID's were assigned to the ZW-L, but we now use engine ID #'s 1-4 and have not experienced any strange behavior lately.

 

One thing that I would add to the discussion is that when you select the ZW-L engine ID, make sure the train brake is all the way up/off.  Sometimes, if the slider is down, the power will not go to the maximum handle position when you dial up the power.  I always adjust the slider up all the way when dialing up the power and don't touch the slider again until after I switch to an engine.

 

We used to use 4 Z-4000's at our setups (so that shorts/derailments could be quickly found and corrected without disrupting the other 3 mainlines), and we now only need one ZW-L.  The ability to remotely reset this transformer has been a real bonus at our Kennywood setup, since we prefer not to be inside the layout at this type of setup, and once turned on, we don't have to touch the ZW-L again until it is time to turn it off.

 

Andy

Marty,

So if you name the throttles as "ENGines" rather than "TRack/TRains" it appears the TMCC/Legacy signal is completely lost and the units are in conventional momentarily?

 

That would require the ground to be somehow disconnected internally would it not?

Could it actually be the base? Can you try another base to duplicate the issue?

Sorry for the late response Marty. My info is eng 12, xfmr, leg, no for sounds, and momentum is at 4.

 

Interesting Marty, some type of software issue is causing the transformer to somehow shunt/eliminate the Legacy signal then when you use ENG rather than TR?

Well here is what I noticed.  In TR as I stated the voltage seems to come up much quicker.  I have the momentum set to L.  If I slowly dial up the voltage the engines all search for the Legacy signal and pop back to conventional.

 

So my conclusion is the voltage isn't coming up fast enough in ENG mode even with momentum set to L.  I have a few more thoughts and will keep you all informed.

I've been following the mystery with growing interest. I was hoping you'd have it figured out yesterday. Here are some of the stupid thoughts someone with no electrical intelligence would consider....

While the transformer is plugged into it's own dedicated power source, break it in by leaving it on for couple hours at a time with it set up as engine. Take all the engines off the track than run it through the start up and shut down sequence continuously for an extended period.

Because I don't have much knowledge or experience with electronics I look at the instruments differently; like an infant that needs to be taught to behave correctly.

And finally if all else failed I'd probably drop it into a gunny sack, go out on my driveway, start jumping up and down while swinging the sack above my head and squawking like a chicken.

Seriously though, I hope someone who's had similar issues chimes in with better ideas and you get it set up and operating the way it should.

In the instructions it says to select XFMR when using ENG rather the TR so you'd think that would tell the software to see the assignment of ENG70 in this case as just another name for TR2. Maybe the issue is TR means Track to the transformer & Train to a consist of engines and the controller input and response is not actually 100% interchangeable? Might anyone else have one of these for you to try?

 

So this means that there is a minimum voltage where the command engines will come up in command. If whatever times out happens before that voltage is reached, the engines come up in conventional. And I guess, if they come up in conventional, they stay in conventional regardless of the presence of  a Legacy signal.

I wonder how long the voltage must be removed until the engines can reboot command?

 

Since you are using a Legacy hand held and the ZW-L will the halt button kill all track power to stop it?

Have guests use the halt button all the time, unless there is a pending crash. Then like me they stare in amazement as things unfold in slow motion... Don't like runaways!

The HALT button does work.  Even though the engines are coming up conventional, the transformer is not.

Is it possible to have this ZW come up at a specific voltage, say 15 or 18 volts, rather than having to spool it up from zero volts? A really interesting quirk you have discovered, and guessing required if you have multiple sets of consisted engines.

Maybe a Track button and a Train button on the new Legacy remote?

Am interested in which method you see and use as the better solution Marty.

 

Always felt the weakest ling in the DCS remote is using the thumbwheel to scroll and select. A friend says having a separate select button in the blank spot right underneath the thumb wheel would have been sweet. Think he is right.

The reason I didn't buy the L is that my C will come up to handle set voltage on B and C and the L doesn't.

 

My thoughts on the ZWL:

1. I used it to replace three ph180 and Legacy PM combos
2. It runs conventional engines very nicely, but it does not play well with QSI reverse boards
3. It makes it easier to wire the layout without the ph/pm combo
4. It is still fun to switch over to conventional and run trains with the handles every now and then.
5. I looks awesome
6. I run it as an ENG in XFRM mode most of the time with no problems with DCS or Legacy.  I do not have problems with TMCC engines starting in conventional.
7. I wire my Legacy directly to layout and not through ZWL.  I was having DCS issues with connecting the Legacy to the ZWL at the legacy post for some reason.
8. The breakers and power fold back are top notch
9. My analog volt and amp meters on my old control panel don't work well at low voltage
10. Halt button works with DCS remote and Legacy remote

On that part of the equation I am with Marty. 

 

I think Marty and I might have been talking with one of the Lionel reps at the same time about this at a York or two before the L was actually released.  I think at that time, the rep suggested he thought it would work the same as the ZW-C, but I was very happy when it turned out the way it did for the L.  (for using it for 4 conventional items, it's better than having to dial something down from max (IMO))

 

Just proves we all have our preferred methods of operating.  (It would have been a really neat trick if it had been programmable to set it for either behavior at the operator's preference, though)

 

-Dave

Well the C is along the lines of B and C being used for accessory voltage. No direction, bell, etc. BUT, it's also useful for TMCC which also likes the voltage to just go on with ON and not having to roll the throttle every time. I tried TR1 and Boost, but unlike the TPCs, the voltage went up and then falls back to zero Using boost.

The TPCs would be my only choice if it were not for the C. 

Why is it desireable to run the voltage up very time when starting command?

 

I know the intent of the B&C on the ZW-C, I'm just stating for my use habits, it's not optimum.

 

As to why I find it desirable to have to dial up the voltage in command, I'll say it's more of a fair compromise than a requirement.  I power several loops on a carpet central in one application.  I may not want to power up all the loops at a given time to play with something.  If I plan on leaving the loop with some sidings dormant, I can instead of having all the engines sit with power available in case I accidentally were to address one when I didn't mean to.

 

While I haven't practiced doing it this way myself, I think you can set the L to behave as one track instead of 4 separate controls, that way you would only have to dial one up (I think) in order to apply power to all. 

 

-Dave

Seems like a firmware change allowing setup to select zero or handle voltage for each channel on turn on would sell many ZW-Ls...

Wonder how hard that would be to do.

I want one, but for my use it would be a step backwards. I never run conventional, but when I have, I have to think before switching on .

Marty, since you are setup as an engine can you set a stall voltage?  That should apply a minimum power at the first speed step. That may get around your problem.  I have a zwl but i have it configured as tr and not engines. What advantage are you getting using it as an engine?