O Gauge Logging Railroads

O27 is tighter than ANY standard gauge prototype would ever dream of.  Even a small heisler or climax would have a rigid frame that was far too long.

 

If I were dead set on an O27 logging operation, I'd get a K-line Porter.

I'm not talking exact scale models here... maybe I should have said O27 "size" instead of "scale".

If we can get a hudson to run around O27 track, I think a small two truck Shay or a Climax is not an unreasonable request.

I can't imagine there being much of a market for that.  

It's not an unreasonable request, but there aren't any out there.  If there were, I sure would have them.  The Shays, Heislers, and Climax locomotives I have from Lionel, MTH, and K-Line are pretty much O36 minimum and really need O42 minimum to operate reliably.  And, of course, they are considerably larger than than a narrow gauge locomotive would be (as compared, for example, with their On30 cousins, which are available in O scale).

 

I'm not complaining though because I really like geared locomotives and have both the O gauge versions as well as the On30 models.  Even the much smaller On30 versions, which operate on HO track, need 18-inch minimum radius curves (that's 36-inch diameter).

Oh, really?

Geared Locomotives

 

Rusty

I would think a switching layout, Back and forth with a well built Saw mill would be an alternative to running around in  O27 circles.  There is a pretty impressive Lumber Mill available  BTS.

Sorry, but I sure can't agree with that.  Buy enough books devoted to the logging industry as it was around the turn of the century and you'll be buried in geared locomotives.  Probably safe to say that geared locomotives were the backbone of railroading as it related to the logging industry.

These pics show what we used in South Mississippi during the heavy logging years. They

are some from the David Price and Melvin Byrd collections. BTW, Mr. Byrd has also published a pictorial book on life in the town of Saucier, MS.

An "027" geared locomotive sounds like a good idea but it won't work.

 

1. Rod engines require moderate grades, wide curves and good track. Most logging railroads lacked all three. Track was hastily laid to the next stand of trees and removed as soon as they were cut. Rod locomotives could not operate there.

 

2. Just as rod locomotives require curves wide enough for their rigid rows of driving wheels, geared locomotives require curves wide enough for their single driveshaft - on the right side of a Shay and down the middle underneath a Heisler or a Climax. Those curves are much tighter for geared locomotives, but "027" is WAY too tight - even tighter than trolley car curves.

 

3. One option is to put a small boiler or carbody atop a pair of small switcher trucks.

Some logging railroads converted Climaxes to gas or diesel power and fashioned a hood atop the frame.

FWIW:
I really didn't want to start a rod vs. geared debate. Loggers in the pacific northwest and British Columbia, which I am the most familliar with, used both. Geared to get the wood off the hills, rod to get it to the mill or kick point where it was set adrift.

I have a box full of O27 track. I was just asking for the future when I do decide to build big, I'd like to incorperate a logging section. For what it represents, the geared locomotive is basically the pinnacle of ingenuity and function for the men that were involved in this industry at the time. It wouldn't be any more than a few sections of track running off to the back of the layout so I guess I can use O31, but I was just asking to be sure.

As Wowak posted, a K-Line Porter is a good choice. How about a Williams 4-6-0?

 

As Silver Lake posted, consider a Lionel 0-6-0T "Docksider", a beat-up GENERAL, or a MTH 2-6-0.

 

A Marx steamer would do, too. Use a Lionel tender OR a truck with a knuckle coupler on the rear of a Marx tender. Logging railroads cobbled all sorts of stuff together.

I disagree with that.......and so does MTH.....or at least they did at one time.

Back a few years ago I got to talk to Mike/MTH at a trade show. I brought up a MTH Rail King Shay, Climax or Hiesler.  Mike agreed that a RK geared loco would sell and be a great idea. And he said they looked at it.....but it just could not be done well enough to make it work. The Shay with it's side drive line could not be made so it could navigate O-31 curves in both directions.......think about how much free movement the drive train would need......

Climax and Hieslers with the center mounted drive line are a little easier but still not for O-31 and that means no RK issue. The only way a geared loco can run O-31 is with a faked drive line and Mike said he would not do that.....too toy like. I am sure Lionel thinks the same way. 

I want a low priced Shay more than any one.....I live in a county that has more operating Shays than anyplace on earth......but I do not see it happening. (I do have a number of them in HO for my 'fix') 

For a logging train on a 027 layout I would use either the Lionel 060 Dockside switcher or the K-line Plymouth switcher.  These would look more in scale.

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

In the old days of On30 guys would take an HO diesel and build an O-scale Class A Climax-ish body for it. There are kits available to do it today. If I remember right, Model Die Casting did similar to convert their HO Boxcab Diesel into an HO Class A "Climax". I would think such a thing could be kitbashed from an O-27 diesel and a "wood" boxcar body shell and a steam loco shell.

 

Might have to try that myself someday....

I think it is asking too much to:

a)Buy a detailed, scale (or near it) loco with a geared drivetrain for under about $700 list price, if not a bit more. It is a complex loco and I'd rather have it done right and pay a bit more.

b)Have it run on O-27 curves.  Looking at the mechanisms of the Shay, Climax, and

Heislers I have seen, they have to have spine shafts to account for differences in shaft lelgnth around curves: O-36 and certainly O-31 challenge the two I have as it is.

Maybe not, buy they didn't solely rely on outdated, well used rod locomotives, either.

 

Logging Mallets

 

To listen to your fine opinion, you make is sound like the logging companies never spent a dime on new locomotives, geared or rod and the rest of us are full of horse-hockey. 

 

Rusty

How about a Lionel 1615 0-4-0 switcher. They are easy to find and cheap. You could weather it maybe add a little detail. They run on 027 just fine. Don

C'mon guys, don't fight about this stuff... opinions are like a**holes. everyone has one and everyone thinks theirs smells better.

Mallets are awesome, thanks rusty for that list... very cool. When I was in WA last year, I had a chance to stand on the footplate of the Washigton Plywood 2-6-6-2. Wish I could have been around when she was running, just about had tears.

So the solution is to basically build my own, which I'm sure can be done but may need more skilled hands than these. Thinking about it, a 0-4-4-0 Mallet would be pretty awesome too.

What was used where depends greatly on region, era and land. And as Pocahontas County WV at one time provided more spruce than any other state there was lots of logging here. (we still have more active geared locos than anyone else too...and all wood for the Spruce Goose came from here)

And while conventional rod driven locos were used in logging I have never seen one in any of the thousands of photos my Dad and I have poured over in his book research. So I'd say WV had 99.999% geared logging locos. With it's steep terrain, narrow hollows and more temporary track than permanent.....gears ruled.

 

But I am sure in other regions and eras any type loco was used. So it boils down to POV. 

Didn't K-Line make a two-truck Shay for 031?

Steamwolf: ETS has a logging mallet you might want to check out.

As to tight radius curves and drive train: putting the truck pivot point at the corners of the trucks nearest the pistons instead of the familiar center would certainly allow a tighter curve. Thus, looking from above the engine: 88xlllx88. The eights are the 4 wheeled trucks, the x the pivot points, the lll the pistons. The stamped metal truck frames (NOT the side castings) would be screwed to the outer edge of the stamped metal body frame on either side of the piston assembly. Yeah, I know, clear as mud. Sorry, I'm just not skilled or set-up to draw on a computer. Can anybody else visualise what I'm trying to say?

I had the K-line shay. No way it would work with 027 track. It's big. Don

I agree with Allan, I have an On30 shay, climax and 2-6-0 from Bachman.  They run great and look good on On30 track next to my O gauge 3-rail trains.

Gentlemen,

   Allan is correct no such engine was ever made, you will have to settle for a Camel Back or an old 259E Tin Plate if you want to run on 027 track with a few logging cars.

PCRR/Dave

If you are looking for historic realism then why don't you go with a separate On3 logging operation.  This way you get everything you want.  All the Shays and Climax engines offered in O gauge are O scale size which means large.  This makes things even more out of proportion even on 031 track which is minimum radius.

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

 

Like Don, I also used a Lionel Postwar 0-4-0 #1615 Switcher Engine and small slopeback tender to pull my homemade skeleton log cars up the steep grades and tight 027 curves of my small layout. 

Take a look at that Byers and Bell in the posting...if that Byers in O scale can't make

0-27, what can?  I have a Marx based steam dummy, kit bashed, and I

have read about all those NY and Chicago dummies vanishing into logging service.

I have a Short Dunkirk kit I have started to convert to three rail.  Why? There IS

a market and nothing available.  As for no rod locos in W/ Va., not sure of that, but

the Little River Logging Co. ran with a small Pacific!! (no less) that still runs on a tourist road up in SW Mich., and a 2-4-4-2 articulated that still survives in the Northwest. These two locos were specifically ordered for the logging road that

logged off the property now  Smoky Mtn. Nat. Park, which is not that far from W.Va.  I am not sure about the geared locos Little River may or may not have used...can't find my pamphlet on it quickly. That ETS loco does not have an outline acceptable to me.  I

have read on here they can sell all they want to the European market, and could not care less.

 

That ETS loco that was brought up a few posts ago is barely acceptable, really cool, but things kinda just don't really look right. As another gentleman said, On30 might have to be the way to go.  My Marx, although awesome and old with character, I don't think could pull an ice train across the north pole in the middle of winter. That's to say it doesn't pull worth half a f***. For what the loco's gonna be doing, it's gotta be able to pull and push up some significant grades.

Thanks for all the help guys, I never knew On30 existed. There's my shot at a good ol' geared machine.

In the Pacific North West, it was common for the Larger timber companies to have very well engineered and maintained mainlines, where the rod engines ruled. The geared locomotives traveled the temporary rough trackage, hauling to marshaling yards, where longer trains were built for the rod locomotives to haul on the mainlines to the mills. many mailines were simply too long for the slow speeds of the geared locomotives. Many of the western logging operations were truly VAST enterprises.

 

 There were also plenty of "Gypo" operators of smaller outfits that did utilize outdated rod locomotives bought on the cheap. A 4-4-0 type can handle very poor quality trackwork, that is one of the main reasons they became known as the "American" type, the trackwork of MANY of our early railroads was very poor in comparison to the European standards of the time.

 

 When speaking of logging railroads, the geared locomotives instantly come to mind, with the Shays King, but they WERE many more rod locomotives used than a lot of people realize,particularly in the woods of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana and B.C.

 

 The Large HO(Yeah, I KNOW an Oxymoron) club that I am a not so active any more member of, the logging divison, operates just as I mentioned above, geared patrols, Rods on the mains. Those guys have researched North West Logging very extensively, and take it very seriously. If a geared locomotive comes down the main out of the Mtns, somebody better have a D**N good reason for it.

 

Doug

If you would like some inspiration, here are some shots of the Columbia Gorge Modell RR Club's logging division, which is integrated into a 60x 70 HO Layout.

 

 

 

Doug

challenger... all i have to say to that is wow. absolutely astonishing!

 

 

SteamWolf,

Thanks, I wish that I could claim to have more to do with how that looks, most of it was pretty well done by the time that I joined. My small contributions just get lost in the shadows of  what others had done.

 

 The Logging division and Roundhouse, were my two Favorite areas to work during ops. The roundhouse would win for my Favorite during open house, because it is near the entrance, and close to the aisle, and I really enjoy inter-acting with the public. During normal ops sessions when the public wasn't visiting, Logging was where I enjoyed operating the most. The scenery and  equipment were so interesting, and a  Great bunch of  guys, in a more  relaxed enviroment, other than a LARGE winning lottery ticket, what more could you ask for?

 

Doug

Another thing to consider, particularly with a model Shay, is the drive shafts have to long enough so they don't spararate when on the outside of a curve, but be short enough so they don't bind when on the inside of a curve.

 

IRM's 60 ton three truck Shay (J. Neils Lumber #5) will make it around the "street radius" curves on the southeast corner of the trolley loop without the drivelines separating or binding.  However, the locomotive's brake rigging hyper-extends enough to make an "automatic brake application" momentarily while transiting the curves.

 

Rusty

Hey fellers.

Here's my plan:

On30 geared "narrow gauge" loco and skeleton cars for the back woods and this old custom rod loco + 4 skeleton cars for the main line to the mill I just purchased from a member on here.

Should be more than sufficient!

Edit: Heck, wish I could edit my post or add pictures from the mobile version...

SteamWolf,

That's my plan.  It works for me.

I think you will like it.

Rusty Traque: In my previous post I wrote of changing the pivot point of the trucks from center to corner. If the drive shaft universal joints were under that pivot point, there would be no need for telescoping driveshafts, and would allow tighter curves.

David,

    The 1615 Switcher is a great little engine, I forgot all about that Engine & Tender, looks real cool coming down the mountain like that, with a load of logs on behind her!

David where did you get the stuff to make those great logging cars, they are the best I have ever seen.

PCRR/Dave

And log cars that will run on O-27 are easy too......

 

WOW! Thanks for all the encouragement and awesome ideas! I know it may take a while to get everything flanged up and cross-threaded together but this is a very good start.

Awesome!

 

Edit: Added the locomotive pic and changed the title... not enough logging railroad threads! Should definitely appeal to the guys who like to run slow.

 

Steamwolf

 

I would love to see something like a RailKing scale 2-6-2T or two truck geared locomotive.  The Bachmann T boilered Shay and Heisler are proof that a lower priced small sized O scale Shay can be built an operate on at least O-31 curves.  A standard gauge locomotive would likely be a strong seller.  Perhaps the new MTH S scale Proto 3 hardware could make a command equipped locomotive like that practical.

 

I would love to see a Baldwin logging mallet like US Plywood 11 or Weyerhaeuser 110 made in O scale.  I sure wouldn't mind it at a RailKing Imperial price and I would be happy to pay a Premier price for a Premier model. 

 

 

We desperately need some good skeleton log car models.  All we have to date are either too short or too short on detail.