Old but New in Box MTH Locomotives

@RWL posted:

Question: Are the risks to buying older PS-2 locos that have never been run, and are still New In the Box condition?

Sure, there is no warranty, and if they're 5V PS/2 boards, they could be DOA before they're ever powered on.   Obviously, if they're priced right, it is likely to be a good deal anyway.  However, I don't pay new prices for "old" new stuff.

The two that I have found are $275 and $280.

I have found several K-Line conventionals for $150 ish.

@RWL posted:

The two that I have found are $275 and $280.

Prices mean nothing unless accompanied by exact make & model specs.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Prices mean nothing unless accompanied by exact make & model specs.

MTH 20-80002E-e PENNSYLVANIA 2340 ~ GG-1 ELECTRIC ENGINE W/PROTO SOUND 2

MTH 20-80002E-e Pennsylvania Railroad 2340 GG-1 Electric Locomotive PS-2

Is this the info that you are referring to, or is there more detail to look for.

That locomotive is from 2002.  It has 5 volt PS 2.  As GRJ said earlier it might work or it could be DOA.  Even if it works, it will fail and cannot be repaired.  Add at least $250 to replace PS2, to whatever your pay for it.

Bingo, that was the reason for the exact model question.  I want to pay substantially less for a 5V PS/2 model then a 3V model as I figure it's at least even odds that I'll be spending money on the replacement board sooner rather than later.

I would think the risk is leaking batteries.

@Danr posted:

That locomotive is from 2002.  It has 5 volt PS 2.  As GRJ said earlier it might work or it could be DOA.  Even if it works, it will fail and cannot be repaired.  Add at least $250 to replace PS2, to whatever your pay for it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Bingo, that was the reason for the exact model question.  I want to pay substantially less for a 5V PS/2 model then a 3V model as I figure it's at least even odds that I'll be spending money on the replacement board sooner rather than later.

What is the cutoff for determining 5v vs. 3v PS2?  Is there a simple rule of thumb that one can use when looking at an engine at a meet?

@Mallard4468 posted:

What is the cutoff for determining 5v vs. 3v PS2?  Is there a simple rule of thumb that one can use when looking at an engine at a meet?

When at a swap meet, the rule of thumb would be to look at the charge port. PS2 5 volt uses a female Jack plug, while PS2 3V uses a two pin connector. ……MTH did not have an exact cutoff date where everything is clear as a bell, you need to know what you’re looking at…..another crystal clear adaptation is the advent of the wireless drawbar, if it’s PS2, and has wireless draw bar, it a definite PS2 3V…….nothing on the box or the locomotive itself denotes 5V or 3V,…..you have to look for the clues…..I can post up pics after coffee if that’ll help you guys….

Pat

I got this from MTH several years back on when the change took place from 5V to 3V boards.

Thank you for contacting MTH Electric Trains. We appreciate your interest in our products. I am afraid I cannot give you an exact date or catalog where we switched from the 5-volt ProtoSound 2.0 to the 3-volt system. For the Premier engines (steam and diesel) in was primarily in the 2004 volume 1 catalog; the majority of the engines offered in that catalog or after have the 3-volt system. For the RailKing engines the switch over was about one catalog later - the 2004 volume 2 catalog. If you have engines that were released around this time we can check on a specific models.

Ditto above.  The 3V was designed for the #1 scale, but became the main stay.  There are odd ball items though that maybe were delayed or such so that 2004 rule is not perfect.  But certainly close.  Same with PS-1 to PS-2 which is a 2000 transition.  But odd ball item cross the line.  Even in once case a box I though said Protosound, but it was PS-2 5V.

Also for the op, if RK they have less features and less value, but the replacement board is the same cost.  So that has to factor in too.  G

@bob2 posted:

I would think the risk is leaking batteries.

Actually, while I've seen a couple of the NiCad batteries leak in the old stuff, I never had one that did more damage than staining the battery holder and killing the contacts on the battery clip.  NiCad or NiMh batteries don't leak nearly as often or as much as alkaline cells.

It seems from all this reading that Proto-2 and PS2 were different.
Are these the names for the 5v and 3v units, or were there other differences?

Funny thing for me is that my three surviving ps2 5 volt engines are going strong and seem indestructible.  The others (three of my six total) died after about 10 years and we’re upgraded to either ps2, 3 volt boards or ps2-3 boards. It really does seem to be a 50/50 proposition.

Yep, I have some 5V models that have run for years, and they're at least close to 20 years old.  I also have put some on the tracks and they were DOA for no reason.  It's like shooting dice.

Protosound is PS-1.  Proto Sound 2 or PS2 can be either PS2 5V or PS-2 3V.  So best to call it by latter.  Battery, speaker, connector type and actual sound file format are different, besides the obvious form of the boards.  But otherwise electrically and how they operate with DCS is the same.  PS-3 is a different beast, but operate with DCS the same.  G

@Überstationmeister posted:

The charging port is the quickest method, cutoff circa 2004. Round port= 5v; Square port= 3v.
See here and here. Additional here, here and here. More discussion here.

Thanks for the links to all of these threads.
This is great information.

Q 1) Regarding the PS2/3 boards: Are they still available anywhere, and especially with the 5v style connectors?

Also: I read that to go from the 5V board to the 2/3 board, the 16ohm speaker needs to be replaced with a 4ohm speaker.
Q-2) Is this correct, and can the 4ohm speaker be found anywhere?

Q 3) Are there any other changes that need to be made when upgrading the 5V to 2/3 board?

Q 4) What exactly is the PS2 & 3 Slave board?

Thanks to everyone who has responded re 5v vs. 3v.  Here's something to add to the fun...

I randomly pulled one of my older MTH locos off the shelf - 20-2657-1 (premier GP40 from a 2006 catalog).  It has a rectangular 2-prong charging port and was well after 2004, so I guess that one should assume 3v.  However, the exploded diagram in the online manual (https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...loded/20dl17066e.pdf) shows a "9v style" battery; however, 20-2657-1 does not appear in the list of engines on the first page of that document (hooray documentation!).  Removing the shell reveals a battery that looks like two AA batteries wrapped together.

Questions:

1) Do all 3v batteries in MTH locos look like two AA batteries wrapped together?

2) Under DCS, the loco functions normally and the battery shows as OK.  Is there any need to replace it with a BCR?

If it has a 2-prong rectangular charging port, it's a 3V board.  Many times during the transition, the manuals didn't catch up with the production.  Yes, all of the 3V locomotives have some sort of two cell NiCad (blue) or NiMh (green) battery pack.  There are at least three sizes of the NiMh packs, AA, AAA, and an even smaller 2/3 AA pack.

If it's the blue battery, I'd probably replace it, if it's not bad now, it will be sometime in the next couple of years.

Another issue, some may say is not that big a deal, but even if you are able to get repairs done on the 5v boards the sound files may no longer be available for your particular model. After a repair I had to substitute a B&O sound file for a L&N file that was not available.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Thanks to everyone who has responded re 5v vs. 3v.  Here's something to add to the fun...

I randomly pulled one of my older MTH locos off the shelf - 20-2657-1 (premier GP40 from a 2006 catalog).  It has a rectangular 2-prong charging port and was well after 2004, so I guess that one should assume 3v.  However, the exploded diagram in the online manual (https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...loded/20dl17066e.pdf) shows a "9v style" battery; however, 20-2657-1 does not appear in the list of engines on the first page of that document (hooray documentation!).  Removing the shell reveals a battery that looks like two AA batteries wrapped together.

Questions:

1) Do all 3v batteries in MTH locos look like two AA batteries wrapped together?

2) Under DCS, the loco functions normally and the battery shows as OK.  Is there any need to replace it with a BCR?

No absolute need to replace the battery with a BCR if you have a new battery ......but......for peace of mind in the future on battery issues .......go with the BCR .

I hope this is not against the rules here but this seems to have gotten lost in the thread.

My questions from a few posts above?

Q 1) Regarding the PS2/3 boards: Are they still available anywhere, and especially with the 5v style connectors?

Also: I read that to go from the 5V board to the 2/3 board, the 16ohm speaker needs to be replaced with a 4ohm speaker.
Q-2) Is this correct, and can the 4ohm speaker be found anywhere?

Q 3) Are there any other changes that need to be made when upgrading the 5V to 2/3 board?

Q 4) What exactly is the PS2 & 3 Slave board?

BTW, I did find a place called "Ray's Electric Train Works" who will do the upgrade from the PS5V to the PS32 board for $295, should the need arise.
Same price to ship me the parts to do it myself, so just have to add the cost of shipping the loco to have him do it.
Anyone here know anything about this place?

Here is the URL to his website:
http://www.rayman4449.com/MTH/...stem-Parts-Power.htm

GunRunnerJohn, I have read that you used to do these upgrades. Do you still do them?

RWL,  I and the club have used Ray's for components, but nothing repaired. He is fast to ship, gives a price and keeps to it. 

Thanks Ron,

That is good to know.

@RWL posted:

Q 1) Regarding the PS2/3 boards: Are they still available anywhere, and especially with the 5v style connectors?

Techs or repair centers can get them or may have them in stock.

Also: I read that to go from the 5V board to the 2/3 board, the 16ohm speaker needs to be replaced with a 4ohm speaker.
Q-2) Is this correct, and can the 4ohm speaker be found anywhere?

Any 4ohm speaker of the correct size to fit the application will work fine.

Q 3) Are there any other changes that need to be made when upgrading the 5V to 2/3 board?

A new heat sink will have to be used or fabricated depending on mounting. Also the wire harness may have to be moved/lengthened to reach the new board. In some cases (Rail King PS2 5V steam with boiler mounted boards) the whole harness will have to be replaced as the PS32 board will not fit in the same space as the PS2 5V board.

Q 4) What exactly is the PS2 & 3 Slave board?

The slave board is most commonly used to control the rear powered unit in a ABA set of powered units with two powered A units.

Thanks Lou,

I appreciate all of the answers.

I have been looking at K-Line GG1's and see that they are upgradeable to TMCC.
Can anyone speak to the cost and difficulty of making this upgrade?

It's a full TMCC upgrade.  K-Line's idea of "upgradeable" isn't the same as Lionel's.  There's no part of the TMCC equipment when you get it, so you have to do it all.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's a full TMCC upgrade.  K-Line's idea of "upgradeable" isn't the same as Lionel's.  There's no part of the TMCC equipment when you get it, so you have to do it all.

Regarding the highlighted portion, I am not sure I understand your meaning.
Can you clarify just a bit?

Lionel has "upgradeable" locomotives that included the motherboard, antenna, and all the wiring for TMCC.  All you had to do is drop in the boards and I believe at least on some of them, move a jumper.

The K-Line GG1, OTOH, has a standard conventional reverse board, and none of the extra stuff you need for TMCC.  It's just a conventional locomotive that you can, if you have the urge, convert to TMCC.  The conversion would be just like any other TMCC conversion, you'd have to do all the work.  The stones exhibited in calling this an "upgradeable" was quite something.

Thanks John.

ya know, I work with computers for a living (who doesn't these days I guess). So I shouldn't be surprised about this failure conversation.  But I have to get my thinking right on these trains. They are wonderfully detailed and the operation is more fun than the simple old Lionels of my youth.  But for our family, the trains have always been family heirlooms.  I have my dad's old tinplate...one of them celebrated 90 years of Christmas tree lapping last year.  some occassional resoldering, rewiring, maybe (maybe) a replaced part due to miles of wear.  But my Dad passed his on to me and I passed trains on to my kids and my grandkids love coming over for the holidays and we play together on the floor around the tree. That's 4 incredible generations of service.  With the fancy new computer rigs... I'm seeing that I should expect dead rigs in a decade and maybe no one around to repair? or costs that are pretty prohibitive.   Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I've got the 3 different rigs that I do..but a bettin man would find me trying to reto fit old school motor without any computer stuff to salvage running engines 20 years from now. The rolling stock (I am almost all passenger cars guy)  will live long and prosper...but I don't know that I'll have the appetite to spend $250-$300 to "repair" a MTH engine that I've bought used for similar money. I'm not being negative.. I just was a giddy kid (at age 62-65) when I saw these beautifully detailed, scale premier engines and loved that they make cool sounds... I grabbed a few.. PS1 and PS2 without a thought about computer failure...so, my bad, but I'll enjoy em while they last.

Followup question - my trains live in storage 11 months of the year...only time they see power is Christmas. for the old Lionels...no problem... but for the MTH, should I pull batteries before storage?  the oldest MTH I have is a doodlebug PS2 that is 5 years old. Fired up this past Christmas no problem...as did last year's purchase of a used PS2 set of FA diesels. My third unit is an old PS1 but with the upgrade done by previous owner to the "capacitor?" system  These are not attic queens like the old lionels...they are stored in the house...so no extreme heat/cold on them.  Advise appreciated

Your PS/2 engine is at least ten years old, because it would have PS/3 if it were only five years old.

If you're worried about the batteries, just upgrade them to supercap replacements, no more issues with dead batteries.

thanks John...then yeah I guess the doodlebug was NOS and I didn't know any better.

@ET posted:

ya know, I work with computers for a living (who doesn't these days I guess). So I shouldn't be surprised about this failure conversation.  But I have to get my thinking right on these trains. They are wonderfully detailed and the operation is more fun than the simple old Lionels of my youth.  But for our family, the trains have always been family heirlooms.  I have my dad's old tinplate...one of them celebrated 90 years of Christmas tree lapping last year.  some occassional resoldering, rewiring, maybe (maybe) a replaced part due to miles of wear.  But my Dad passed his on to me and I passed trains on to my kids and my grandkids love coming over for the holidays and we play together on the floor around the tree. That's 4 incredible generations of service.  With the fancy new computer rigs... I'm seeing that I should expect dead rigs in a decade and maybe no one around to repair? or costs that are pretty prohibitive.   Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I've got the 3 different rigs that I do..but a bettin man would find me trying to reto fit old school motor without any computer stuff to salvage running engines 20 years from now. The rolling stock (I am almost all passenger cars guy)  will live long and prosper...but I don't know that I'll have the appetite to spend $250-$300 to "repair" a MTH engine that I've bought used for similar money. I'm not being negative.. I just was a giddy kid (at age 62-65) when I saw these beautifully detailed, scale premier engines and loved that they make cool sounds... I grabbed a few.. PS1 and PS2 without a thought about computer failure...so, my bad, but I'll enjoy em while they last.

First of all, there is no way to know how long the 'computerized' engines will last, people have them run for 20 years or more.   Parts can be a problem, the old postwar engines have a ton of replacement parts out there, that is true. With MTH there are ps 2 and ps 3 boards available it sounds like, there is a ps 3 upgrade kit. On the Lionel side of the house there can be problems, but ERR is still there, even though it is only TMCC level (it is too bad that Lionel didn't think to solve the problem with their legacy units dying and parts not being available, by licensing Legacy level to ERR).

The other thing is the computer controlled engine will never become totally a brick. You can always put an electronic reversing board it in and have the ability to basically run a post war engine (won't have the sound, smoke, etc) if somehow err disappears or MTH no longer offers an upgrade kit.

The postwar engines simply were beasts, relatively simple and relatively simple to fix, and the parts were common across a wide range of engines, which is great. The modern engines have amazing features but have limitations with the complexity they have. The way I look at it, I would enjoy the engine for the time I have with it, if it dies and I can't fix it, I had the fun of using it all those years. It is frustrating, but a lot of expensive things are like this, modern appliances die after the warranty runs out and parts are often not available. I have a Kohler tub (never again) that they discontinued the model about 5 years after I installed it, and you can't get basic parts for it like the faucet base (it is a whirlpool tub), and their answer was "We discontinued it, what did you expect?"..well, you don't generally replace bath tubs every 5 years, I would think for something like tubs they would maintain parts inventory for a while, but they don't.

agreed... I think the youngest Lionel I have would be late 50s...magna traction, etc..the "working era" stuff....as a kid growing up, without youtube etc (grin).. it was me just digging into them to replace light bulbs, repair wiring, replace an E-unit, etc...you were a kid..you just figured it out best you could...same with my old Aurora T-jet slot cars.

granted I upgrade computers, digital mix consoles, etc  here in my studio every few years etc...more about tech obsolescence than failure. Most of my personal guitar rigs hail from 1964 - 1973.  i'm just old and simple like that.  But you're also right.. I'll enjoy the play time with the MTH product...I'm 65..so they will likely outlive me....so not to worry.