Old New York

The Queensboro Bridge opened in 1909 connecting Queens with Manhattan at 59th street. It originally had a 10 cent toll to use it. The last streetcar line in New York City ran over this bridge until 1957. In its early years, there were a number of lines and additional tracks crossing the Bridge , the last of which ran in 1937. Sometime after the Bridge opened , work began on trackways to connect the Second Ave Elevated with the joint IRT BRT station to be built at Queensboro Plaza under the Dual Contracts expansion. 

Here are a couple of photos of Queensboro plaza before the joint  IRT BRT station and facilities were built . The time period is probably about 1912.

Wide roadways and malls existed. No Els or subways in sight. The Building with the tower was at a later time used as manufacturing point for early aircraft. Long Island was an early center of aviation in the early years. 

This view is just a bit earlier than the first photo above. The tracks of the LIRR and PRR are in the foreground. The freight cars are in what was known as Yard A on the LIRR. It has since been eliminated along with Arch Street and the float yards further west. PRRs Sunnyside yards are just to the right in the photo. They were new when this image was made.  The Roadway and bridge we see is Queens Boulevard . It looks as if construction is still underway and there is no traffic yet. Today, the El structure of the number 7 Flushing train is above the bridge and road . I found these photos interesting to see what was there before the Queens Elevateds came.

From a recent fan trip I took with my friends in the last year. 

Tom 

Old PATH train cars..................

SIRT, I took many rides on those old H&M pre-PATH cars.  They could turn very sharp curves, under Hudson Terminal.

Just saw this one   Brooklyn Bridge 1945

Amazing photo Ben. Just a year after the El and trainshed were discontinued, there is no sign of it in the photo. The trolleys ran to 1950. Looks like a PCC in delivery colors in the foreground.

A few photos from around the area seen on Facebook.

The first one shows us a single car SIRT train on the North Shore Branch supposedly at Snug Harbor on the  way   to Arlington. I found the photo interesting as it is a color shot. Its about 1953 in time.

So now we go off to Long Island into Nassau County on the LIRR. WE have a couple of nice Steam engine shots to share. This one is at Floral Park in the early 1950s before the line was elevated here as part of a Grade Crossing Project The tracks we see are the main line from  Hicksville, Divide . The train is either a Port Jefferson or Ronkonkoma originating train on the way to Jamaica. The Garden City branch would be in the foreground but not in the photo Nice G5s shot with a string of ping pongs in Tichy colors.

This next shot is interesting for LIRR historians and is a scene that is rare and no longer possible. In the early years, The LIRR had a line that crossed the Main line just east of Mineola. It connected the Oyster bay Branch with the Hempstead Branch and continued beyond to the present day West Hempstead Branch and connected to the Far Rockaway line at Valley Stream. Access to the Rockaways was provided to Long Islanders without having to go to Jamaica.

This shot shows us an H10s crossing Hempstead Turnpike on trackage that is now gone. Looks like a 1950 Pontiac in the photo. . I did not think that there were train movements on that track segment as late as 1950. That's a 1949 Plymouth in the right hand corner.

Thanks for posting this LIRR material :-) Westhempstead Branch

LIRR Alco S1 #415 westbound (View N) at Hempstead Ave., probably headed from Country Life Press West Hempstead  late 1950's Archive: Jim Gillin

After Penn Station was demolished Jackie Kennedy led the fight for the Landmarks preservation act    Penn Station was a beautiful building  Very bad something like that was destroyed

Great pictures from Ben and all of you - lots of history here

Ben,

  Since you mentioned Jackie Kennedy, here is the plaque from Grand Central. Your topic is so long, not sure if we posted it before.

  Also, I included an old IRT (platform pillar) subway sign, circa 1910, probably from IRT W.34th Street - PENN.  STA. Detective work provided by the great Joe Frank, fellow Mt. St. Michael (Bronx high school) graduate. I picked up the subway sign from the White Plains Toy & Train Show this past Sunday. The best $45 I ever spent. 

Tom 

bluelinec4 posted:

After Penn Station was demolished Jackie Kennedy led the fight for the Landmarks preservation act    Penn Station was a beautiful building  Very bad something like that was destroyed

The reps in Buffalo NY are determining where to place the new Amtrak station in Buffalo right now. Some want another new station built by the lake. I wish there were more people like her involved in the decision. When the Central Terminal is gone, it will never be replaced.

A far cry from what Penn Station looks like today.....they could never build anything like this again due to costs and bureaucratic laws and legislation....I hope the post office between 7th and 8th ave gets to survive...  

A few from Queensboro

Queeensborough Plaza was the largest station in the Elevated system and as large as the West 4th street complex on the IND lines. Until 1949, service was provided jointly by the IRT and BMT divisions. Until 1942, the IRT second Avenue Elevated operated over the Queensboro Bridge and ran trains to both Astoria and Flushing . The IRT Steinway Line( What is now the number 7) provided service to both branches from Times Square. BMT El Trains served both branches with Trains originating at Queensboro Plaza as well as  a Round Robin Operation between Ditmars Blvd and Main street Flushing. BMT subway trains used the 60th street tunnel to arrive at Queensboro plaza with passengers transferring to the BMT EL service for either Branch. The track work was a a great complex arrangement that permitted all these operations. Here are a few aerial views. The North side of the station was removed in the 1960's since it had not bee used since 1949.

This one is probably 1949-50 right after joint operations ended.

from the Astoria Branch looking west into the old BMT station

BMT now using the former 2nd Ave El Connection to Astoria

A lot of Q cars on the Astoria Branch east of the plaza . Note the Bridge trolley on the street level.

 what a mix master of tracks we have here on the east side of the station as the Astoria and Flushing Branches diverge to the North and East.

probably 1949 . some BMT equipment still using the layup track on the south side of the Flushing El between the plaza and 33rd street . Some activity in LIRR Yard A at Sunnyside. 

From the Astoria side. The 2nd Avenue El connection is in the foreground.

4th ave local having arrived from Manhattan. It will turn and change ends on  the BMT layup track.

Same Train arriving

The Low V's at Ditmars Blvd on Astoria ready to depart for Times Square on the Steinway line.

and Last but not least, MUDC cars on the 2nd Ave Line coming from Flushing.Probably just before service ended in 1942.  

Remember as a small child riding from Broadway, Astoria over the Queensboro bridge and down 2nd ave.80 years ago. Also riding on the BMT gate cars from Broadway, Astoria to 61st street Woodside without changing trains. This was before these cars were rebuilt to the Q configuration just before the 1939-40 World's Fair! GREAT MEMORIES,I can assure you!

Thank you for the comments on your experience with these Els. When the 6th, 9th and 2nd ave  north of 59 th st Els were closed in 1940, there were many newer cars available to make the 2nd ave run to Queens Els . So gate cars would be rare after 1940 on these lines. The one seat ride you mentioned was the BMT round Robin Astoria -Flushing service. Curious as to what track and platform these trains used in the BMT part of Queensboro plaza station. 

Thanks for the memories guys, I was born in 1943 lived in Corona, rode the "Q" cars. I remember the block signals were inbedded in the station columns. I was under the impression that the "Q's" ended @Willets Point, but I guess I'm wrong. I guess I always rode lo-v's to Flushing.

The subway entrances at Main street had both BMT and IRT signs on them . Since Q's were the last BMT cars to run on this line, its a good bet they made it to Main Street. 

Its not the only place on the BMT where wood cars were below ground. The Culver service via the 5th Avenue elevated used wood cars and traveled through the lower level of the 9th Avenue station in Brooklyn which was below grade.

on the Flushing Line in BMT service

At 33rd st Rawson 

At 74th street

I was crazy about the Q cars! Have ridden them to Main Street as expresses and locals. Great photos LIRR! Thank you all for your informative posts and photos.

Hello George

You were lucky to ride those Flushing and Astoria EL lines with the IRT Subway Steinway-Car Trains,  2nd Ave wood EL Gate & MUDC car trains,  BMT EL wood Gate and later Q Type EL car Trains  !! 

I would expect you may have also ridden the IRT Manhattan El cars on the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave El until 1956,  and the Q types on that line from April 1950 thru 9-16-1956 when the Q's and MUDC's were replaced on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL with steel Steinway Subway cars that you also rode in Queens !  I rode the 3rd Ave EL in  Manhattan (and Bronx) frequently but when born I had just missed the closing of the 2nd Ave EL !!

Here is my NYC EL O-Scale EL Layout Flickr Photos Page with  Page # 2 of my BMT WOOD EL GATE CARS Album....from the middle to bottom of page two I have showcased my Queens Worlds Fair Q Types seen on my EL adjacent and along with my IRT Low-V original Steinways  and  1939 W.F. Steinway models,   IRT Manhattan EL wooden MUDC Cars, and some BMT Standards.  I was replicating the Flushing / Astoria line in the period you remember and spoke about.  Even tho these are models on a model EL, I figured in that you rode the prototype trains back then,  you may enjoy these, and some of the sample photos from that page,  added below:   (This IS a forum dedicated to Subway-Traction Modeling !)

O-Scale BMT Wooden EL Cars - Album Page 2

 Of course,  you can use the link to access the other pages of that Album,  and the entire Flickr Site of all my model photos, if you are interested.

Regards ! - Joe F

Beautiful stuff 

Joseph Frank posted:

Hello George

You were lucky to ride those Flushing and Astoria EL lines with the IRT Subway Steinway-Car Trains,  2nd Ave wood EL Gate & MUDC car trains,  BMT EL wood Gate and later Q Type EL car Trains  !! 

I would expect you may have also ridden the IRT Manhattan El cars on the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave El until 1956,  and the Q types on that line from April 1950 thru 9-16-1956 when the Q's and MUDC's were replaced on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL with steel Steinway Subway cars that you also rode in Queens !  I rode the 3rd Ave EL in  Manhattan (and Bronx) frequently but when born I had just missed the closing of the 2nd Ave EL !!

Here is my NYC EL O-Scale EL Layout Flickr Photos Page with  Page # 2 of my BMT WOOD EL GATE CARS Album....from the middle to bottom of page two I have showcased my Queens Worlds Fair Q Types seen on my EL adjacent and along with my IRT Low-V original Steinways  and  1939 W.F. Steinway models,   IRT Manhattan EL wooden MUDC Cars, and some BMT Standards.  I was replicating the Flushing / Astoria line in the period you remember and spoke about.  Even tho these are models on a model EL, I figured in that you rode the prototype trains back then,  you may enjoy these, and some of the sample photos from that page,  added below:   (This IS a forum dedicated to Subway-Traction Modeling !)

O-Scale BMT Wooden EL Cars - Album Page 2

 

 Of course,  you can use the link to access the other pages of that Album,  and the entire Flickr Site of all my model photos, if you are interested.

Regards ! - Joe F

Thanks for your photos of wonderful models! I indeed have ridden the 3rd avenue L on numerous occasions up and down Manhattan and also well into The Bronx fron 1945. WOW what a great ride especially in the South Bronx where the trains would run very closely to the apartment buildings.Thanks again Joe F. your contributions of information and many detailed photos of your trains and laout!

Hello George !

Thanks for the reply and nice comments.  I enjoyed reading your various posted long ago memories on the old EL"s !! 

I also loved the IRT and BMT various EL Gate Cars,  MUDC Cars and the BMT/  IRT  / BMT  Q-Type EL Cars.  You can imagine my surprise in May 1958 to find my old Q-Type friends previously removed from the Bronx 3rd Ave EL throughout 1957, still alive & well and overhauled and all of them newly running on the BMT Myrtle Ave. EL in Brooklyn.  They all still had their original HIGH clerestory roofs,  with the carbodies painted a burgundy wine maroon with silver roofs --- really sharp looking !  I am sure you must have ridden the Q's Type cars on Myrtle EL !!  You also likely saw a lot of streetcar action in Manhattan, Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn back in your time !  I only saw the remaining tail end of it in the 1950-1957 period.

Yes, the Manhattan to Bronx & return 3rd Ave EL ride was a very long (on local trains especially) and memorable  -- there was so much station and structure diversity -- Double Deck Hump express stations,  and odd stations like NB at E.34th Street local Station after the shuttle line was removed, with its passenger overpass bridge over the tracks -- and the newer SB Station house at E.42nd St Express Station and its underpass under the tracks (as it passed over 3rd Ave.below) connecting the 1921 built SB station with the 1878 built NB Station -- and the different local station at E.99th St Local Station with the station houses at the north end of the platforms and also an under track underpass between platform !

And the Harlem River 2 deck swing bridge,  the long "S" curved 4 tracks high over the New Haven RR Freight yards and its 2 track down ramp connecting to the NHRR-NYW&B Railway former terminal station in the yards.  And the Bronx narrow "alleyway" EL between the E. 133rd, E. 138th  and 143rd Street double deck (2 tracks each level)  Local-Express Stations.  And the narrow and busy Avenue the El ran thru over "Third" Avenue in the "E. 149th St. HUB" multi block shopping strip !  And the long ride up the Bronx to the double deck Gun Hill Road (lower level) Station terminal !

You are lucky to have lived in Astoria Queens back then (your postal code on your OGR profile shows that code) and I presume you still live there today??  Lucky because "your EL" - the IRT, later in Dec. 1949 given to the BMT,  Astoria EL,  (and Flushing EL) survived in operation from opening in 1917 before your infant and childhood years later, to this very day -- so you can more easily reminisce and see it anytime now. 

Sure,  the stores and shops you remember are likely long gone and have changed in look and style,  but the basic EL and its stations you grew up with remains the same as does the surrounding real estate (all private homes).  Unlike those of us who lived along the 3rd Ave El in Manhattan, like me,  who have only our memories and photos (and some videos acquired thru the years) of that EL in Manhattan AND BRONX !  And now with the MASSIVE real Estate changes (countless new towering buildings ) all along much of the length of Manhattan's 3rd Ave. today.

I tried to preserve those long ago early memories of the EL's and the old rolling stock I rode and remember,  both in my photos of the real line(s) and my EL Layout modeling.   Of course, I had to  fully scratch-build models of the famed IRT  MUDC EL cars I remember, including with full accurate scale interiors and underbody equipment & trucks - so here are some photos of my IRT EL MUDC (Multiple Unit Door Control converted in 1923 from Open Platform Gate cars) models seen no my EL. 

The FIRST FOUR photos are of my O-Scale scratch built IRT EL MUDC's on my O-Scale NY EL Layout  The LAST photo is a Prototype location photo taken at E. 45th Street along the east side of 3rd Ave and the EL, looking north to a northbound MUDC local after the Dec. 1947 Blizzard snow storm !

Here is my FLICKR Album of "Street Scenes along the O-Scale NYC

Here BELOW is the LINK to my Flickr ALBUM of photos of street scenes taken along my O-Scale Model NYC EL System

STREET SCENES along the O-Scale NYC EL

Regards - Joe F

During the snow storm of 12-26-1947 the subways were kept running their routes continuously as well as all the L's!! However the LIRR operations were in terrible shape. For instance passengers were marooned for 2 days without power and heat. Joe I've lived all my life in Astoria except for military time. I enjoy your knowledgeable comments and remarks. Keeps my memory going. Thanks again Joe F!

lionel1933 posted:

During the snow storm of 12-26-1947 the subways were kept running their routes continuously as well as all the L's!! However the LIRR operations were in terrible shape. For instance passengers were marooned for 2 days without power and heat. Joe I've lived all my life in Astoria except for military time. I enjoy your knowledgeable comments and remarks. Keeps my memory going. Thanks again Joe F!

My mom told a story about that snowstorm, she was working downtown and commuted from the northeast Bronx (the Esplanade station, that 40 years later I was commuting from going to the Financial district), and talking about coming out of the subway and stepping into snow drifts that were over her waist (and she was pretty tall for the times,around 5ft 6"). Amazing they could keep the transit going through that (it was officially close to 26"), seems like we get much lower snowstorms and it cripples transit , I remember years ago my uncle and his family got stuck on the 2 train at 180th coming back from a broadway show, and it wasn't particularly that big a storm. I don't know if they are more cautious today and shut the system down out of safety concerns/lawsuits, but also seems like the trains are affected more than they were back then, and that was a time when the subways were running at capacity, I think it matched what we have today on the subways in NYC. 

I can still picture that storm.  I lived at the northern tip of Hudson County, NJ.  All the busses had stopped running (many were stopped, stuck) on Bergenline Avenue, which after sundown was filled with people walking home, presumably from the NYC ferry slips in Weehawken.  I am told that the DL&W catenary went down, and steam locos were hauling the MU cars for days, with no heat.

RJR posted:

I can still picture that storm.  I lived at the northern tip of Hudson County, NJ.  All the busses had stopped running (many were stopped, stuck) on Bergenline Avenue, which after sundown was filled with people walking home, presumably from the NYC ferry slips in Weehawken.  I am told that the DL&W catenary went down, and steam locos were hauling the MU cars for days, with no heat.

Actually, surprised the people even noticed, those MU cars heating was pretty wonky to start with, your feet burned and the upper part froze *lol*. That catenary system could go down easily, pre the conversion the pantograph on some train would catch it the wrong way and instant cable on the track fouling up traffic...but I miss the green monsters, glad to have a  set of the ones Lionel produced

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...can_blizzard_of_1947

Googling will bring up much video and articles on the storm.

lionel1933 posted:

During the snow storm of 12-26-1947 the subways were kept running their routes continuously as well as all the L's!! However the LIRR operations were in terrible shape. For instance passengers were marooned for 2 days without power and heat. Joe I've lived all my life in Astoria except for military time. I enjoy your knowledgeable comments and remarks. Keeps my memory going. Thanks again Joe F!

Was this the snow storm where just as the LIRR was getting the plows out there was a grade crossing accident which tied things up long enough for the drifts to build?

Stuart

The snow fell  so rapily that the railroad found it impossible to keep up with the plowing.That afternoon at about4PM at the Woodside-61st street station on the eastbound platform of the Flushing L. Below me I saw a LIRR steam locomotive on the eastbound express track trying toget to Jamaica with no cars in tow behind it. The loco could not make any headwayIt would reverse and tried to forward many times to no avail.Watched a few minutes but had to continue my own trip. The reason the subways and L's is they ran every train possible possible with the intent to keep the rails clear of accumulated snow!  Their was a LIRR train with passengers on board on the Port Wabhington branch that was marooned for 2 days--no power and no heat!         

bluelinec4 posted:

Ben; absolutely fascinating that this existed in Manhattan. Do you know when the pic is from??? I don't see the West Side Highway or Henry Hudson anywhere.

lionel1933 posted:

The snow fell  so rapidly that the railroad found it impossible to keep up with the plowing.  That afternoon at about 4PM at the Woodside-61st street station on the eastbound platform of the Flushing EL.   Below me I saw a LIRR steam locomotive on the eastbound express track trying to get to Jamaica with no cars in tow behind it. The loco could not make any headway. It would reverse and tried to forward many times to no avail.Watched a few minutes but had to continue my own trip. The reason the subways and EL's is they ran every train possible possible with the intent to keep the rails clear of accumulated snow!  Their was a LIRR train with passengers on board on the Port Washington branch that was marooned for 2 days--no power and no heat!         (George)

Hello again George

I barely remember the Dec 26 1947 Blizzard but I do remember a number of significant snowstorms in NY City from 1950 and onward.  I rode the 3rd Ave El in a few -- my last large snow storm EL ride was one in the late winter of 1954 - - likely the last such Snow storm the EL had to deal with, heh, before it closed in Manhattan on Thurs 5-12-1955.

I assume you were age 10 to 13 back in 1947,  so this webpage with these photo you may like and quite well remember !!

On the webpage,  see the first photo sample, and some RED text under it stating  VIEW MORE -- and /or also at its lower right hand side see " 1-15 "  and two tiny arrows to its right.  Click either the red letters  VIEW MORE under the image,  or click the arrows and that photo will come up full size and you will see larger arrows to move from photo to photo, etc., in the 1 to 15 series.

Here is the LINK to the webpage   >>        BLIZZARD of 12-26-1947 - NY City photos

BELOW are some favorite PHOTOS on the IRT 3rd Ave EL in my collection from that 1947 Blizzard Period !

Regards !! - Joe F

==========================================================================

BELOW ----- View Northwest on the N/B E.166th Street local Station, Bronx 3rd Ave. EL, with a layup train of IRT Composite express train cars stored on center express track

BELOW ---- North at N. end of 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 76th Street Station platform to rear MUDC car of a N/B local headed to (my station) the E.84th Street  Station in distance, up the 7 block long steep hill !

BELOW -- View N/E at north end of the 3rd Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station center-island platform  to the rear MUDC Car of a northbound departing 3rd Ave EL local.

BELOW ---- North from north end of the Uptown E.76th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El towards a S/B local of IRT EL MUDC  cars having departed the E.84th St. Local Station in distance, heading south to the E.76th St Local Station

Sorry Been but your last two posts are void of pictures... If that was your intentions.

Hello PRR

I have NO problems continually viewing Ben's 2 photos !

Note --  the two photos on Ben's two messages (Hudson River harbor freight yards aerial views ) show up fine and continuously visible when I access this thread page day after day.  it must be your browser which has an issue if only you don't see them !

Regards - Joe F

Joseph Frank posted

I barely remember the Dec 26 1947 Blizzard but I do remember a number of significant snowstorms in NY City from 1950 and onward.  I rode the 3rd Ave El in a few -- my last large snow storm EL ride was one in the late winter of 1954 - - likely the last such Snow storm the EL had to deal with, heh, before it closed in Manhattan on Thurs 5-12-1955.

Regards !! - Joe F

==========================================================================

BELOW ----- View Northwest on the N/B E.166th Street local Station, Bronx 3rd Ave. EL, with a layup train of IRT Composite express train cars stored on center express track

BELOW ---- North at N. end of 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 76th Street Station platform to rear MUDC car of a N/B local headed to (my station) the E.84th Street  Station in distance, up the 7 block long steep hill !

 

BELOW -- View N/E at north end of the 3rd Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station center-island platform  to the rear MUDC Car of a northbound departing 3rd Ave EL local.

 

BELOW ---- North from north end of the Uptown E.76th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El towards a S/B local of IRT EL MUDC  cars having departed the E.84th St. Local Station in distance, heading south to the E.76th St Local Station

Joe,

  Hope you are well. Great pictures. Since your subway modeling is superb as far as use of shadows, did you ever attempt a snow scene?

Tom 

MNCW posted:

Joseph Frank posted

I barely remember the Dec 26 1947 Blizzard but I do remember a number of significant snowstorms in NY City from 1950 and onward.  I rode the 3rd Ave El in a few -- my last large snow storm EL ride was one in the late winter of 1954 - - likely the last such Snow storm the EL had to deal with, heh, before it closed in Manhattan on Thurs 5-12-1955.

Regards !! - Joe F

==========================================================================

BELOW ----- View Northwest on the N/B E.166th Street local Station, Bronx 3rd Ave. EL, with a layup train of IRT Composite express train cars stored on center express track

BELOW ---- North at N. end of 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 76th Street Station platform to rear MUDC car of a N/B local headed to (my station) the E.84th Street  Station in distance, up the 7 block long steep hill !

 

BELOW -- View N/E at north end of the 3rd Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station center-island platform  to the rear MUDC Car of a northbound departing 3rd Ave EL local.

 

BELOW ---- North from north end of the Uptown E.76th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El towards a S/B local of IRT EL MUDC  cars having departed the E.84th St. Local Station in distance, heading south to the E.76th St Local Station

Joe,

  Hope you are well. Great pictures. Since your subway modeling is superb as far as use of shadows, did you ever attempt a snow scene?

Tom 

Hello Tom !!

Good to hear from you.  I am doing OK -- fairly well considering at this (heh) stage of my life -- still modeling and working here and there on the layout.

SNOW SCENES !!??   I sort of wondered about doing so and did a lot of research modeling wise on it,  Thus, Heck No !!

REAL SNOW melts and disappears (evaporates)  doing no damage to prototype structures and materials (developed to withstand outdoor weather and "water-snow-moisture")  However,  whatever available type of snow-replicating material (except that white cotton fluff stuff)  would be used to cover my El tracks, building roofs, streets, sidewalks, autos, etc., ... for photography or otherwise -- it would be one heck of a nightmare to remove it all from the tracks, El structure crevices and nooks, basically ANY crevices, crannies  and nooks, heh. 

And REAL SNOW - ie; taken into the train room from a raging (heh) snow storm outside in the real world - would be too "thick" of consistence as well as melt more quickly and wreak havoc and damage to any cardstock or paper created modeled items ..as well as to my street materials !

I have thought of doing a few trolley modules (suburban type) with "permanent" snow as part of the trackside scenery landscape.  These two modules would be kept attached together if they went to trolley shows.  I may look into that in the near future.

But, for my El and trolley system and its, heh, " trackside city",  its always either night (lights off)  or daytime sunny dry mild weather (lights on)  -- with no worries about wind, rain,  snow,  sand storms,  hurricanes or tornadoes,  heh  (except God forbid, "outside" the house / trainroom.)

Good to hear from you again Tom --  have to get together in Yonkers for a day !

Regards - Joe F

Here is real snow and me operating.  Too bad I'm on the other end of that G and you cant see me