Old New York

The Queensboro Bridge opened in 1909 connecting Queens with Manhattan at 59th street. It originally had a 10 cent toll to use it. The last streetcar line in New York City ran over this bridge until 1957. In its early years, there were a number of lines and additional tracks crossing the Bridge , the last of which ran in 1937. Sometime after the Bridge opened , work began on trackways to connect the Second Ave Elevated with the joint IRT BRT station to be built at Queensboro Plaza under the Dual Contracts expansion. 

Here are a couple of photos of Queensboro plaza before the joint  IRT BRT station and facilities were built . The time period is probably about 1912.

Wide roadways and malls existed. No Els or subways in sight. The Building with the tower was at a later time used as manufacturing point for early aircraft. Long Island was an early center of aviation in the early years. 

This view is just a bit earlier than the first photo above. The tracks of the LIRR and PRR are in the foreground. The freight cars are in what was known as Yard A on the LIRR. It has since been eliminated along with Arch Street and the float yards further west. PRRs Sunnyside yards are just to the right in the photo. They were new when this image was made.  The Roadway and bridge we see is Queens Boulevard . It looks as if construction is still underway and there is no traffic yet. Today, the El structure of the number 7 Flushing train is above the bridge and road . I found these photos interesting to see what was there before the Queens Elevateds came.

From a recent fan trip I took with my friends in the last year. 

Tom 

Old PATH train cars..................

SIRT, I took many rides on those old H&M pre-PATH cars.  They could turn very sharp curves, under Hudson Terminal.

Just saw this one   Brooklyn Bridge 1945

Amazing photo Ben. Just a year after the El and trainshed were discontinued, there is no sign of it in the photo. The trolleys ran to 1950. Looks like a PCC in delivery colors in the foreground.

 

A few photos from around the area seen on Facebook.

The first one shows us a single car SIRT train on the North Shore Branch supposedly at Snug Harbor on the  way   to Arlington. I found the photo interesting as it is a color shot. Its about 1953 in time.

So now we go off to Long Island into Nassau County on the LIRR. WE have a couple of nice Steam engine shots to share. This one is at Floral Park in the early 1950s before the line was elevated here as part of a Grade Crossing Project The tracks we see are the main line from  Hicksville, Divide . The train is either a Port Jefferson or Ronkonkoma originating train on the way to Jamaica. The Garden City branch would be in the foreground but not in the photo Nice G5s shot with a string of ping pongs in Tichy colors.

This next shot is interesting for LIRR historians and is a scene that is rare and no longer possible. In the early years, The LIRR had a line that crossed the Main line just east of Mineola. It connected the Oyster bay Branch with the Hempstead Branch and continued beyond to the present day West Hempstead Branch and connected to the Far Rockaway line at Valley Stream. Access to the Rockaways was provided to Long Islanders without having to go to Jamaica.

This shot shows us an H10s crossing Hempstead Turnpike on trackage that is now gone. Looks like a 1950 Pontiac in the photo. . I did not think that there were train movements on that track segment as late as 1950. That's a 1949 Plymouth in the right hand corner.

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this LIRR material :-) Westhempstead Branch

LIRR Alco S1 #415 westbound (View N) at Hempstead Ave., probably headed from Country Life Press West Hempstead  late 1950's Archive: Jim Gillin

After Penn Station was demolished Jackie Kennedy led the fight for the Landmarks preservation act    Penn Station was a beautiful building  Very bad something like that was destroyed

Great pictures from Ben and all of you - lots of history here

Ben,

  Since you mentioned Jackie Kennedy, here is the plaque from Grand Central. Your topic is so long, not sure if we posted it before.

  Also, I included an old IRT (platform pillar) subway sign, circa 1910, probably from IRT W.34th Street - PENN.  STA. Detective work provided by the great Joe Frank, fellow Mt. St. Michael (Bronx high school) graduate. I picked up the subway sign from the White Plains Toy & Train Show this past Sunday. The best $45 I ever spent. 

Tom 

 

bluelinec4 posted:

After Penn Station was demolished Jackie Kennedy led the fight for the Landmarks preservation act    Penn Station was a beautiful building  Very bad something like that was destroyed

The reps in Buffalo NY are determining where to place the new Amtrak station in Buffalo right now. Some want another new station built by the lake. I wish there were more people like her involved in the decision. When the Central Terminal is gone, it will never be replaced.

A far cry from what Penn Station looks like today.....they could never build anything like this again due to costs and bureaucratic laws and legislation....I hope the post office between 7th and 8th ave gets to survive...  

A few from Queensboro

Queeensborough Plaza was the largest station in the Elevated system and as large as the West 4th street complex on the IND lines. Until 1949, service was provided jointly by the IRT and BMT divisions. Until 1942, the IRT second Avenue Elevated operated over the Queensboro Bridge and ran trains to both Astoria and Flushing . The IRT Steinway Line( What is now the number 7) provided service to both branches from Times Square. BMT El Trains served both branches with Trains originating at Queensboro Plaza as well as  a Round Robin Operation between Ditmars Blvd and Main street Flushing. BMT subway trains used the 60th street tunnel to arrive at Queensboro plaza with passengers transferring to the BMT EL service for either Branch. The track work was a a great complex arrangement that permitted all these operations. Here are a few aerial views. The North side of the station was removed in the 1960's since it had not bee used since 1949.

This one is probably 1949-50 right after joint operations ended.

from the Astoria Branch looking west into the old BMT station

BMT now using the former 2nd Ave El Connection to Astoria

A lot of Q cars on the Astoria Branch east of the plaza . Note the Bridge trolley on the street level.

 what a mix master of tracks we have here on the east side of the station as the Astoria and Flushing Branches diverge to the North and East.

probably 1949 . some BMT equipment still using the layup track on the south side of the Flushing El between the plaza and 33rd street . Some activity in LIRR Yard A at Sunnyside. 

From the Astoria side. The 2nd Avenue El connection is in the foreground.

4th ave local having arrived from Manhattan. It will turn and change ends on  the BMT layup track.

Same Train arriving

The Low V's at Ditmars Blvd on Astoria ready to depart for Times Square on the Steinway line.

and Last but not least, MUDC cars on the 2nd Ave Line coming from Flushing.Probably just before service ended in 1942.  

Remember as a small child riding from Broadway, Astoria over the Queensboro bridge and down 2nd ave.80 years ago. Also riding on the BMT gate cars from Broadway, Astoria to 61st street Woodside without changing trains. This was before these cars were rebuilt to the Q configuration just before the 1939-40 World's Fair! GREAT MEMORIES,I can assure you!

Thank you for the comments on your experience with these Els. When the 6th, 9th and 2nd ave  north of 59 th st Els were closed in 1940, there were many newer cars available to make the 2nd ave run to Queens Els . So gate cars would be rare after 1940 on these lines. The one seat ride you mentioned was the BMT round Robin Astoria -Flushing service. Curious as to what track and platform these trains used in the BMT part of Queensboro plaza station. 

Thanks for the memories guys, I was born in 1943 lived in Corona, rode the "Q" cars. I remember the block signals were inbedded in the station columns. I was under the impression that the "Q's" ended @Willets Point, but I guess I'm wrong. I guess I always rode lo-v's to Flushing.

The subway entrances at Main street had both BMT and IRT signs on them . Since Q's were the last BMT cars to run on this line, its a good bet they made it to Main Street. 

Its not the only place on the BMT where wood cars were below ground. The Culver service via the 5th Avenue elevated used wood cars and traveled through the lower level of the 9th Avenue station in Brooklyn which was below grade.

 

on the Flushing Line in BMT service

At 33rd st Rawson 

At 74th street

I was crazy about the Q cars! Have ridden them to Main Street as expresses and locals. Great photos LIRR! Thank you all for your informative posts and photos.

Hello George

You were lucky to ride those Flushing and Astoria EL lines with the IRT Subway Steinway-Car Trains,  2nd Ave wood EL Gate & MUDC car trains,  BMT EL wood Gate and later Q Type EL car Trains  !! 

I would expect you may have also ridden the IRT Manhattan El cars on the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave El until 1956,  and the Q types on that line from April 1950 thru 9-16-1956 when the Q's and MUDC's were replaced on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL with steel Steinway Subway cars that you also rode in Queens !  I rode the 3rd Ave EL in  Manhattan (and Bronx) frequently but when born I had just missed the closing of the 2nd Ave EL !!

Here is my NYC EL O-Scale EL Layout Flickr Photos Page with  Page # 2 of my BMT WOOD EL GATE CARS Album....from the middle to bottom of page two I have showcased my Queens Worlds Fair Q Types seen on my EL adjacent and along with my IRT Low-V original Steinways  and  1939 W.F. Steinway models,   IRT Manhattan EL wooden MUDC Cars, and some BMT Standards.  I was replicating the Flushing / Astoria line in the period you remember and spoke about.  Even tho these are models on a model EL, I figured in that you rode the prototype trains back then,  you may enjoy these, and some of the sample photos from that page,  added below:   (This IS a forum dedicated to Subway-Traction Modeling !)

O-Scale BMT Wooden EL Cars - Album Page 2

 

 Of course,  you can use the link to access the other pages of that Album,  and the entire Flickr Site of all my model photos, if you are interested.

Regards ! - Joe F

Beautiful stuff 

Joseph Frank posted:

Hello George

You were lucky to ride those Flushing and Astoria EL lines with the IRT Subway Steinway-Car Trains,  2nd Ave wood EL Gate & MUDC car trains,  BMT EL wood Gate and later Q Type EL car Trains  !! 

I would expect you may have also ridden the IRT Manhattan El cars on the Manhattan & Bronx 3rd Ave El until 1956,  and the Q types on that line from April 1950 thru 9-16-1956 when the Q's and MUDC's were replaced on the Bronx 3rd Ave EL with steel Steinway Subway cars that you also rode in Queens !  I rode the 3rd Ave EL in  Manhattan (and Bronx) frequently but when born I had just missed the closing of the 2nd Ave EL !!

Here is my NYC EL O-Scale EL Layout Flickr Photos Page with  Page # 2 of my BMT WOOD EL GATE CARS Album....from the middle to bottom of page two I have showcased my Queens Worlds Fair Q Types seen on my EL adjacent and along with my IRT Low-V original Steinways  and  1939 W.F. Steinway models,   IRT Manhattan EL wooden MUDC Cars, and some BMT Standards.  I was replicating the Flushing / Astoria line in the period you remember and spoke about.  Even tho these are models on a model EL, I figured in that you rode the prototype trains back then,  you may enjoy these, and some of the sample photos from that page,  added below:   (This IS a forum dedicated to Subway-Traction Modeling !)

O-Scale BMT Wooden EL Cars - Album Page 2

 

 Of course,  you can use the link to access the other pages of that Album,  and the entire Flickr Site of all my model photos, if you are interested.

Regards ! - Joe F

Thanks for your photos of wonderful models! I indeed have ridden the 3rd avenue L on numerous occasions up and down Manhattan and also well into The Bronx fron 1945. WOW what a great ride especially in the South Bronx where the trains would run very closely to the apartment buildings.Thanks again Joe F. your contributions of information and many detailed photos of your trains and laout!

Hello George !

Thanks for the reply and nice comments.  I enjoyed reading your various posted long ago memories on the old EL"s !! 

I also loved the IRT and BMT various EL Gate Cars,  MUDC Cars and the BMT/  IRT  / BMT  Q-Type EL Cars.  You can imagine my surprise in May 1958 to find my old Q-Type friends previously removed from the Bronx 3rd Ave EL throughout 1957, still alive & well and overhauled and all of them newly running on the BMT Myrtle Ave. EL in Brooklyn.  They all still had their original HIGH clerestory roofs,  with the carbodies painted a burgundy wine maroon with silver roofs --- really sharp looking !  I am sure you must have ridden the Q's Type cars on Myrtle EL !!  You also likely saw a lot of streetcar action in Manhattan, Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn back in your time !  I only saw the remaining tail end of it in the 1950-1957 period.

Yes, the Manhattan to Bronx & return 3rd Ave EL ride was a very long (on local trains especially) and memorable  -- there was so much station and structure diversity -- Double Deck Hump express stations,  and odd stations like NB at E.34th Street local Station after the shuttle line was removed, with its passenger overpass bridge over the tracks -- and the newer SB Station house at E.42nd St Express Station and its underpass under the tracks (as it passed over 3rd Ave.below) connecting the 1921 built SB station with the 1878 built NB Station -- and the different local station at E.99th St Local Station with the station houses at the north end of the platforms and also an under track underpass between platform !

And the Harlem River 2 deck swing bridge,  the long "S" curved 4 tracks high over the New Haven RR Freight yards and its 2 track down ramp connecting to the NHRR-NYW&B Railway former terminal station in the yards.  And the Bronx narrow "alleyway" EL between the E. 133rd, E. 138th  and 143rd Street double deck (2 tracks each level)  Local-Express Stations.  And the narrow and busy Avenue the El ran thru over "Third" Avenue in the "E. 149th St. HUB" multi block shopping strip !  And the long ride up the Bronx to the double deck Gun Hill Road (lower level) Station terminal !

You are lucky to have lived in Astoria Queens back then (your postal code on your OGR profile shows that code) and I presume you still live there today??  Lucky because "your EL" - the IRT, later in Dec. 1949 given to the BMT,  Astoria EL,  (and Flushing EL) survived in operation from opening in 1917 before your infant and childhood years later, to this very day -- so you can more easily reminisce and see it anytime now. 

Sure,  the stores and shops you remember are likely long gone and have changed in look and style,  but the basic EL and its stations you grew up with remains the same as does the surrounding real estate (all private homes).  Unlike those of us who lived along the 3rd Ave El in Manhattan, like me,  who have only our memories and photos (and some videos acquired thru the years) of that EL in Manhattan AND BRONX !  And now with the MASSIVE real Estate changes (countless new towering buildings ) all along much of the length of Manhattan's 3rd Ave. today.

I tried to preserve those long ago early memories of the EL's and the old rolling stock I rode and remember,  both in my photos of the real line(s) and my EL Layout modeling.   Of course, I had to  fully scratch-build models of the famed IRT  MUDC EL cars I remember, including with full accurate scale interiors and underbody equipment & trucks - so here are some photos of my IRT EL MUDC (Multiple Unit Door Control converted in 1923 from Open Platform Gate cars) models seen no my EL. 

 

The FIRST FOUR photos are of my O-Scale scratch built IRT EL MUDC's on my O-Scale NY EL Layout  The LAST photo is a Prototype location photo taken at E. 45th Street along the east side of 3rd Ave and the EL, looking north to a northbound MUDC local after the Dec. 1947 Blizzard snow storm !

Here is my FLICKR Album of "Street Scenes along the O-Scale NYC

Here BELOW is the LINK to my Flickr ALBUM of photos of street scenes taken along my O-Scale Model NYC EL System

STREET SCENES along the O-Scale NYC EL

Regards - Joe F

During the snow storm of 12-26-1947 the subways were kept running their routes continuously as well as all the L's!! However the LIRR operations were in terrible shape. For instance passengers were marooned for 2 days without power and heat. Joe I've lived all my life in Astoria except for military time. I enjoy your knowledgeable comments and remarks. Keeps my memory going. Thanks again Joe F!

lionel1933 posted:

During the snow storm of 12-26-1947 the subways were kept running their routes continuously as well as all the L's!! However the LIRR operations were in terrible shape. For instance passengers were marooned for 2 days without power and heat. Joe I've lived all my life in Astoria except for military time. I enjoy your knowledgeable comments and remarks. Keeps my memory going. Thanks again Joe F!

My mom told a story about that snowstorm, she was working downtown and commuted from the northeast Bronx (the Esplanade station, that 40 years later I was commuting from going to the Financial district), and talking about coming out of the subway and stepping into snow drifts that were over her waist (and she was pretty tall for the times,around 5ft 6"). Amazing they could keep the transit going through that (it was officially close to 26"), seems like we get much lower snowstorms and it cripples transit , I remember years ago my uncle and his family got stuck on the 2 train at 180th coming back from a broadway show, and it wasn't particularly that big a storm. I don't know if they are more cautious today and shut the system down out of safety concerns/lawsuits, but also seems like the trains are affected more than they were back then, and that was a time when the subways were running at capacity, I think it matched what we have today on the subways in NYC. 

I can still picture that storm.  I lived at the northern tip of Hudson County, NJ.  All the busses had stopped running (many were stopped, stuck) on Bergenline Avenue, which after sundown was filled with people walking home, presumably from the NYC ferry slips in Weehawken.  I am told that the DL&W catenary went down, and steam locos were hauling the MU cars for days, with no heat.

RJR posted:

I can still picture that storm.  I lived at the northern tip of Hudson County, NJ.  All the busses had stopped running (many were stopped, stuck) on Bergenline Avenue, which after sundown was filled with people walking home, presumably from the NYC ferry slips in Weehawken.  I am told that the DL&W catenary went down, and steam locos were hauling the MU cars for days, with no heat.

Actually, surprised the people even noticed, those MU cars heating was pretty wonky to start with, your feet burned and the upper part froze *lol*. That catenary system could go down easily, pre the conversion the pantograph on some train would catch it the wrong way and instant cable on the track fouling up traffic...but I miss the green monsters, glad to have a  set of the ones Lionel produced

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...can_blizzard_of_1947

Googling will bring up much video and articles on the storm.

lionel1933 posted:

During the snow storm of 12-26-1947 the subways were kept running their routes continuously as well as all the L's!! However the LIRR operations were in terrible shape. For instance passengers were marooned for 2 days without power and heat. Joe I've lived all my life in Astoria except for military time. I enjoy your knowledgeable comments and remarks. Keeps my memory going. Thanks again Joe F!

Was this the snow storm where just as the LIRR was getting the plows out there was a grade crossing accident which tied things up long enough for the drifts to build?

Stuart

 

The snow fell  so rapily that the railroad found it impossible to keep up with the plowing.That afternoon at about4PM at the Woodside-61st street station on the eastbound platform of the Flushing L. Below me I saw a LIRR steam locomotive on the eastbound express track trying toget to Jamaica with no cars in tow behind it. The loco could not make any headwayIt would reverse and tried to forward many times to no avail.Watched a few minutes but had to continue my own trip. The reason the subways and L's is they ran every train possible possible with the intent to keep the rails clear of accumulated snow!  Their was a LIRR train with passengers on board on the Port Wabhington branch that was marooned for 2 days--no power and no heat!         

bluelinec4 posted:

Ben; absolutely fascinating that this existed in Manhattan. Do you know when the pic is from??? I don't see the West Side Highway or Henry Hudson anywhere.

lionel1933 posted:

The snow fell  so rapidly that the railroad found it impossible to keep up with the plowing.  That afternoon at about 4PM at the Woodside-61st street station on the eastbound platform of the Flushing EL.   Below me I saw a LIRR steam locomotive on the eastbound express track trying to get to Jamaica with no cars in tow behind it. The loco could not make any headway. It would reverse and tried to forward many times to no avail.Watched a few minutes but had to continue my own trip. The reason the subways and EL's is they ran every train possible possible with the intent to keep the rails clear of accumulated snow!  Their was a LIRR train with passengers on board on the Port Washington branch that was marooned for 2 days--no power and no heat!         (George)

Hello again George

I barely remember the Dec 26 1947 Blizzard but I do remember a number of significant snowstorms in NY City from 1950 and onward.  I rode the 3rd Ave El in a few -- my last large snow storm EL ride was one in the late winter of 1954 - - likely the last such Snow storm the EL had to deal with, heh, before it closed in Manhattan on Thurs 5-12-1955.

I assume you were age 10 to 13 back in 1947,  so this webpage with these photo you may like and quite well remember !!

On the webpage,  see the first photo sample, and some RED text under it stating  VIEW MORE -- and /or also at its lower right hand side see " 1-15 "  and two tiny arrows to its right.  Click either the red letters  VIEW MORE under the image,  or click the arrows and that photo will come up full size and you will see larger arrows to move from photo to photo, etc., in the 1 to 15 series.

Here is the LINK to the webpage   >>        BLIZZARD of 12-26-1947 - NY City photos

BELOW are some favorite PHOTOS on the IRT 3rd Ave EL in my collection from that 1947 Blizzard Period !

Regards !! - Joe F

==========================================================================

BELOW ----- View Northwest on the N/B E.166th Street local Station, Bronx 3rd Ave. EL, with a layup train of IRT Composite express train cars stored on center express track

BELOW ---- North at N. end of 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 76th Street Station platform to rear MUDC car of a N/B local headed to (my station) the E.84th Street  Station in distance, up the 7 block long steep hill !

 

BELOW -- View N/E at north end of the 3rd Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station center-island platform  to the rear MUDC Car of a northbound departing 3rd Ave EL local.

 

BELOW ---- North from north end of the Uptown E.76th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El towards a S/B local of IRT EL MUDC  cars having departed the E.84th St. Local Station in distance, heading south to the E.76th St Local Station

Sorry Been but your last two posts are void of pictures... If that was your intentions.

Hello PRR

I have NO problems continually viewing Ben's 2 photos !

Note --  the two photos on Ben's two messages (Hudson River harbor freight yards aerial views ) show up fine and continuously visible when I access this thread page day after day.  it must be your browser which has an issue if only you don't see them !

Regards - Joe F

Joseph Frank posted

I barely remember the Dec 26 1947 Blizzard but I do remember a number of significant snowstorms in NY City from 1950 and onward.  I rode the 3rd Ave El in a few -- my last large snow storm EL ride was one in the late winter of 1954 - - likely the last such Snow storm the EL had to deal with, heh, before it closed in Manhattan on Thurs 5-12-1955.

Regards !! - Joe F

==========================================================================

BELOW ----- View Northwest on the N/B E.166th Street local Station, Bronx 3rd Ave. EL, with a layup train of IRT Composite express train cars stored on center express track

BELOW ---- North at N. end of 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 76th Street Station platform to rear MUDC car of a N/B local headed to (my station) the E.84th Street  Station in distance, up the 7 block long steep hill !

 

BELOW -- View N/E at north end of the 3rd Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station center-island platform  to the rear MUDC Car of a northbound departing 3rd Ave EL local.

 

BELOW ---- North from north end of the Uptown E.76th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El towards a S/B local of IRT EL MUDC  cars having departed the E.84th St. Local Station in distance, heading south to the E.76th St Local Station

Joe,

  Hope you are well. Great pictures. Since your subway modeling is superb as far as use of shadows, did you ever attempt a snow scene?

Tom 

MNCW posted:

Joseph Frank posted

I barely remember the Dec 26 1947 Blizzard but I do remember a number of significant snowstorms in NY City from 1950 and onward.  I rode the 3rd Ave El in a few -- my last large snow storm EL ride was one in the late winter of 1954 - - likely the last such Snow storm the EL had to deal with, heh, before it closed in Manhattan on Thurs 5-12-1955.

Regards !! - Joe F

==========================================================================

BELOW ----- View Northwest on the N/B E.166th Street local Station, Bronx 3rd Ave. EL, with a layup train of IRT Composite express train cars stored on center express track

BELOW ---- North at N. end of 3rd Ave EL uptown E. 76th Street Station platform to rear MUDC car of a N/B local headed to (my station) the E.84th Street  Station in distance, up the 7 block long steep hill !

 

BELOW -- View N/E at north end of the 3rd Ave EL South Ferry Terminal Station center-island platform  to the rear MUDC Car of a northbound departing 3rd Ave EL local.

 

BELOW ---- North from north end of the Uptown E.76th Street Local Station on the 3rd Ave El towards a S/B local of IRT EL MUDC  cars having departed the E.84th St. Local Station in distance, heading south to the E.76th St Local Station

Joe,

  Hope you are well. Great pictures. Since your subway modeling is superb as far as use of shadows, did you ever attempt a snow scene?

Tom 

Hello Tom !!

Good to hear from you.  I am doing OK -- fairly well considering at this (heh) stage of my life -- still modeling and working here and there on the layout.

SNOW SCENES !!??   I sort of wondered about doing so and did a lot of research modeling wise on it,  Thus, Heck No !!

REAL SNOW melts and disappears (evaporates)  doing no damage to prototype structures and materials (developed to withstand outdoor weather and "water-snow-moisture")  However,  whatever available type of snow-replicating material (except that white cotton fluff stuff)  would be used to cover my El tracks, building roofs, streets, sidewalks, autos, etc., ... for photography or otherwise -- it would be one heck of a nightmare to remove it all from the tracks, El structure crevices and nooks, basically ANY crevices, crannies  and nooks, heh. 

And REAL SNOW - ie; taken into the train room from a raging (heh) snow storm outside in the real world - would be too "thick" of consistence as well as melt more quickly and wreak havoc and damage to any cardstock or paper created modeled items ..as well as to my street materials !

I have thought of doing a few trolley modules (suburban type) with "permanent" snow as part of the trackside scenery landscape.  These two modules would be kept attached together if they went to trolley shows.  I may look into that in the near future.

But, for my El and trolley system and its, heh, " trackside city",  its always either night (lights off)  or daytime sunny dry mild weather (lights on)  -- with no worries about wind, rain,  snow,  sand storms,  hurricanes or tornadoes,  heh  (except God forbid, "outside" the house / trainroom.)

Good to hear from you again Tom --  have to get together in Yonkers for a day !

Regards - Joe F

Here is real snow and me operating.  Too bad I'm on the other end of that G and you cant see me

                                   My old house on the right and siding on the left............

 

 

                      Grasmere Station and my old house on the left................

 

  Old SIRT cars...............

 

    St. George - Ferry and Yard..................... Extra cars ready for rush hour's 6 car trains.

 

  SIRT AlCo. S-2 assigned to commuter service. 3rd rail power is cut off!

 

   Rounding South to Old Town Rd.....................

Hello Ben -- and Steve (SIRT)  !

Great SIRT SNOW vintage photos,   Steve  ! 

And Ben -- how do you know that the train heading to the Tunnel shot from the outbound  Ditmas Station platform - has you operating it in the cab ?  You saw the railfan taking the photo ?  Great shot from whomever also !!

Here BELOW are some Metro North heavy SNOW scenes I think rate very good   -- as we are on a snow trip here, heh --

regards - Joe F

Joseph Frank posted:

Hello Ben -- and Steve (SIRT)  !

Great SIRT SNOW vintage photos,   Steve  ! 

And Ben -- how do you know that the train heading to the Tunnel shot from the outbound  Ditmas Station platform - has you operating it in the cab ?  You saw the railfan taking the photo ?  Great shot from whomever also !!

regards - Joe F

Joe

I remember the day vividly.  10 inches of snow were forecast and it had been snowing about 45 minutes when this pic was taken.  The lower yard at Church ave was closed for switch replacements.  I was working the GO job on midnights relaying the G trains past Ditmas into the middle track before 18 ave.  There was a track circuit on 1 track right before the switch coming up the hill   We had to key by the signals and they started running the F's on the express track to bypass the problem as you can see in the picture.  When I came up the hill I had to travel 10 mph over the problem area   I remember the kid standing on the platform  As I came up to him I opened the window and told him he is devoted standing there in the snow taking pictures   After I did my relay I saw him with his camera up facing that F train so I really do know its me in that G

Hi Ben !

Great memories by you for that day -- and it was very nice you even took time to personally pay homage to the kid with the camera ! 

How many times I remember myself being out in snowstorms in the 1950's thru very late 1960's in NYC shooting transit -- on the roof of tenements in Dec. 1960 photographing the Bronx 3rd Ave EL from rooftops in the 166th thru 174th Street stations section - and that time when I caught that IRT R-33 / 36 WF fleet delivery on the old NYW&B Viaduct below E. 180th Street, Bronx,  in I think Feb 1964 in a snow storm -  both from track level on the snow covered 4 track former NYW&B RR trestle and lower earth embankment at E. 175th St, and from a Tenement Apartment Rooftop along side the Trestle over Lebanon Avenue.  Both times freezing my A--- off (and my feet) for the shots I have today !  It amazing the stamina, energy, and motivation for such when we were so much younger !

Regards ! - Joe F

Hello Ben, SIRT and others

This is one of my favored "favorited" (saved)  videos shot by a railfan.  BIG SNOW on the IRT White Plains Rd Line shot Dec. 30th, 2000 the night before the last (Dec 31) day of 2000   (date embedded in beginning of video)    With all kinds of early evening and nights scenes -- gives the great long-ago-mood feel and aura of the IRT in  the snow  (after all I "am" an old IRT man, heh)  -- reminds me of riding the IRT Bronx EL's lines in the mid 1950's into the mid 1960's on 10 car trains of IRT Low-V's and then brand new R-17-21-22 SMEES in snow storms.... as long as we are on a "snow kick" here !

KUDOS to the video photographer who was out there recording it all ---

Video Link --     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSFUDPdcqOc

 

Regards - Joe F

 

 

Joe,

  I don't know that much about subways, maybe you can confirm, did I see Redbirds and our 238th/Nereid Ave/Mt. St.Michael stop? 

  Nice video.

Tom 

I recall seeing, from MSM classrooms, the southbound 10-car trains going over the yard junction.

MNCW posted:

Joe,

  I don't know that much about subways, maybe you can confirm, did I see Redbirds and our 238th/Nereid Ave/Mt. St.Michael stop?

  Nice video.

Tom

Hello Tom --

Yes,  there were a number of scenes in that movie at or near  our E.238th St-Nereid AV IRT EL Station via which "The Mount" (Mt. St. Michael School)  was reached after a many block walk eastward towards the Borderline literally of Bronx and Mt Vernon -- the rear of the Mount grounds ran along Mundy Lane -- the easterly side border of the school grounds was on the Bronx, west side of, Mundy Lane, while the opposite sidewalk was on Mount Vernon land.  Nereid (aka E. 238St) on the north becomes E. 5th St in Mt Vernon,  and Pitman Ave on the south school border becomes Sanford Blvd (E.6th St) at Mundy Lane,  that Sanford Blvd which a few blocks southeast took you to (in our time) the closed former NYW&B RR Station at E.6th St.

The video, even tho shot in 2000,  17 years ago NOW,  could well have been in a snowstorm in the 1950's and 60's with IRT SMEE trains barreling thru the snow.  I liked the addition on the sidewalks of the installation of those retro reproduced Bishop Crooks Gooseneck streetlights -- like those along the Avenue in the 1920's thru late 1960's -- the night scenes with the snow and the vintage lamp posts' globes glowing warm light !  And the Christmas decorations crossing the avenue under the EL.  They don't even do that anymore, heh !

The FIRST TWO photos BELOW side by side are  looking north from the south end of the E. 89th St Local Station, 3rd Ave EL, Manhattan, in the early 1950's.  The B&W photo at left is on the west sidewalk of 3rd Ave and shows the antiquity of the EL line & neighborhood I grew up with -  as does the station platform level view photo at its right.  This was the EL Station just north of my E. 84th St Local Station.  My mother and I walked up 3rd Ave. along the EL to shop regularly at the corner fruit & vegetable store seen in both photos.  And at some other stores along that block.  I remember it so well !   That boy with the hat could be me around 1952.  My EL station was fully identical to this one at E.89th Street.  This general view is typically what I saw all along the EL back in the 1950's -- pure Victorian and pre-WW-I era real estate, heh !

The THIRD photo BELOW is what I saw daily along the Avenue growing up -- with the Mack (and some GMC) Red and Cream transit buses bouncing and rattling on the uneven cobblestone paving with its embedded streetcar tracks under the then ancient 1878 built EL Structure still lined by then ancient real estate.

The FOURTH & FIFTH photos BELOW are in 2016 taken at the corners of Lydig Ave and White Plains Rd. along (our) EL line north to "The Mount" -- with the re-installation classic of the retro-repro cast iron Bishop Crook gooseneck type streetlights along the a short few blocks section of the avenue just below Pelham Parkway Station,   along a more solidly built and heavier modern 1917 built EL Structure -- but still able to create a nostalgic look back to a decades earlier era even with more modern storefronts and signage.  I can imagine trains of IRT Low-V's thundering by overhead as I remember them there back in the 1950's-60's !

The LAST photo BELOW looks north in 2016 towards our EL station at E.238th St-Nereid Ave which we both used to and from "The Mount" at the end of Nereid Avenue for the long walk eastward.  The city put that stupid wide sidewalk into the roadway -- for what purpose.  Takes away all the parking spaces.  When I went to the Mount there was still cobblestone paving on the street under the EL, and abandoned trolley tracks.  The street was blacktop paved around 1960 or so.  And old iron pipe streetlights with ornamental under-support scrolls, mounted on wooden utility poles that lined White Plains Road !

Well,  our memories of the EL train and route to the Mount are very similar - even if mine are older from a now long ago visually-vanished era !  You can always go "back",  but you can never truly go "home" - in most cases !

Best Regards, Tom - - Joe F

zz

Joe F, when were you a Mounty?

RJR posted:

I recall seeing, from MSM classrooms, the southbound 10-car trains going over the yard junction.

Whoa...I don't recall seeing anything good from the windows of Mt. St. Michael!  

I graduated in 1978. 

Tom 

You must have faced the courtyard.  When I first arrived, in Fall 1950, we were in the locker room.  I do remember in second year, being in a classroom in front, upper floor at end of building nearest the gym being built, from whence one could see the el.  I transferred out in June 1952

RJR posted:

Joe F, when were you a Mounty?

Hello RJR

I was a Mountie at Mt St Mikes in Sept. 1955 thru June 1958 -- when I left for a school on Park Avenue a few blocks from my Manhattan home.

When I first went to the Mount I took the Lex. Ave. Subway in Manhattan north and changed to the Bronx 3rd Ave EL at E.149th St Station...and took the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave "EL" to its Gun Hill Road Station terminal,  where I went to the upper level to again ride the same route-line (White Plains Road EL) to Nereid Ave. Station to get to the Mount.  I did this because the 3rd Ave EL had just a few months before (on Thursday, May 12, 1955, 7PM.)  had permanently stopped all service below E. 149th Street, Bronx, south  to Chatham Square Terminal.  The 3rd AV EL was still standing abandoned in Manhattan by Sept. 1955 but was being dismantled,  including the EL station on my Block.

Of Note!!:  The section of lower Bronx EL from Harlem River edge and to and from E.133rd St to E.149th St (The "Alley" double-decked EL from 133rd to 143 St Stations) was kept active but NON revenue -- as then the only physical way to turn back trains south of the E.149th St "new south terminal" station until the track X-overs switches and signals at the north end of the then "new" Terminal -- could be installed and put in service. That was done by late 1957.

But I could still ride my old friends of 6-car trains of wooden EL cars  ( MUDC's and those Q Types) on the remaining Bronx portion from Friday May 13th, 1955 until the wood cars were replaced completely by Dec. 16, 1956,  by 6 car trains of steel ex-subway Low-V Steinway Cars.    Other times I just took the Lex Ave - White Plains Rd trains direct to the Mount - and back.

YOU were up in the Mount around 1950 to 1952 I think you stated --   therefore you know the neighborhood "look and feel and character"  that I described from my 1955-1958 period up there.  The sort of country-suburban aura of the area. Very quiet, safe, crime free and civilized way back 60 years ago !! I use to hang out at the IRT EL E. 239th St  Subway-EL yards by the gate at the north end of Barnes Avenue, and chat with the friendly gate man.  He even let me inside a few feet past the gate to see and take pictures of the wooden El trains stored there at their track bumpers.  Sometimes I went to the north end of the adjacent Byron Ave to see the trains stored alongside the shop building.  I had a school pal who lived at 4400 Wickham Ave whose apt. house I visited  also faced Barnes Ave.  Most all of the streetlights were those ancient 1910 era iron pipe with curlicue scroll supports fixtures attached to wooden utility poles

I was at the Mount  when the enclosed brick 2nd floor "walkway bridge" being built between the Main Head-house building and the Gym-Cafeteria.  I saw the construction daily  from start to end -- I think it was started in 1957

Another pal, schoolmate, was Robert Mayer,  whose dad owned the huge Mayers' Parkway Restaurant & Caterers on E.233st down the hill west from the EL station there at White Plains Rd.  Had many after-school snacks and "late lunches" there with Bob.  That famous restaurant and catering house finally closed down I think in the very late 1990's, perhaps into 2000 or so. A Multi level garage building is now on the site. It has a Facebook site.

I have visited the mount countless times between the 1960's to just a few years ago !  Here are my 3 yearbooks from the Mount -- all in mint condition !

regards ! - Joe F

Joe, I lived in NJ and boarded.  Early on Monday morning, Mom would drive me to the bus stop on the NJ side of the GW.  I bus across, grab the SB A train (they were new then, with fluorescent lights) to 145th St, switch to the NB D to 205th ST, and then the 16 Webster Ave bus to the Mount.  Friday afternoon I had a choice: D to 59th and A to PA Bus terminal, or walk to 241st, and take the IRT down a few stations to catch the 3rd Ave El to 42nd St or go straight down to 42nd (don't remember if there was a transfer involved.)

In 1952 I switched to St. Peters Prep in JC, day-hopping.  The 44 bus crossed the Erie Station 4-track lead, and steam still hauled some commuter trains.  Down by the Prep, PRR still ran Exchange Place Station, with MU trains and one daily Jersey Coast train hauled by Baldwin Sharks.

I suspect the MSM area has changed drastically.

Speaking of that area, during WWII, Mom & I would take subway to visit Grandma who lived a few blocks from the Dyer Ave shuttle station.  2-car trains, open platform.

Hello RJR -----------

You, I and Lionel 1933 here could share some great memories of our riding those lines now gone - riding the great 3rd Ave EL-  or significantly changed  per the Dyre Ave. (ex-NYW&B RR) Line shuttle with wood IRT EL Gate cars which I rode a few times there in 1953,  and with IRT Hi-V subway cars from mid 1953 thru 1957 -- and the now very vintage -back then visual way the city looked in those times !!  The transit vehicles we rode -- all now long gone (except for a scant few cars in Museums or the NYC Transit Museum --- but riding them in daily revenue back then in the city the way it was,  are now all but distant memories.  Memories which spurred me to create the earlier HO EL layout and later O-Scale EL & Trolley layout and  vintage real estate and street scenes along the "EL" on the layout.

Wow, your mother sent you from NEW JERSEY to the Mount at the far east end of the Bronx !!! -- WHAT a long trip !!  And time consuming !  Obviously to board (live at the school,  a boarder) there for the week and come home weekends and holidays....and summers (?)   I boarded there part time in 1955-56.  Riding all that transit back then for you as very young back then must have been almost magical, enchanting  and exciting !  

If you have not seen my layout webpage, here is the Link to the Main PAGE and Albums PAGE. Some of the modeled scenes and rolling stock will be familiar to your memories of the prototypes.  Also check out the FAVORITES section photos - videos on my site

MAIN PAGE ----    https://www.flickr.com/photos/44268069@N00/

ALBUMS PAGE ----   https://www.flickr.com/photos/44268069@N00/albums

BELOW is an aerial MAP and aerial PHOTO of the Mount and the landmarks nearby circled in red

regards - Joe F

 

 

Joe, I was 12 years old when I started at MSM.  Can you picture today sending a 12-year-old on that route?

Ok this picture is ok for this thread  Because I'm old and this is New York  LOL   Its pretty rare seeing an R46 on the Q

Where were you when the picture was taken?  Looks like it might be the Coney Island yard.

It’s Coney Island but not the yard. It’s stillwell terminal.  I am waiting for the lineup to bring me to the yard. 

You Sir, have all the fun!!!

I happened to stumble upon a link for the New York Public Library that has pictures of old piers on the Hudson/North River and the East River. Being a Pennsy fan, I knew Piers 49-50 (North/Hudson River) were used by the Pennsy and just learned so were Piers 77-78.

This post is so large now, not sure if this was ever posted before, apologies if it is a duplicate post. 

https://digitalcollections.nyp...tan#/?tab=navigation 

Tom 

There is a place in Wesley Chapel NC that is known as Brooklyn Pizza. The floor is a map of the NYC Subway system. Its a little outdated since it opened for the 2nd ave line was in service. So you get a sign for the table after placing your order. Here is a sign we had. Enjoy

 

Nov 22, 1967 was a historic day in New York History as it was the final day of the original Trans Hudson Ferry service which began some three hundred years earlier and became an extension of railroad service connecting New York City. On that day , at 5:45 , Elmira whistled off and departed eastbound from Hoboken to Barclay Street in Manhattan. At the same time, Lackawanna left Barclay street westbound for Hoboken. Lackawanna was an original Delaware Lackawanna and Western boat , the oldest in the fleet having been built in 1895. At 6pm that day , Elmira whistled off at Barclay street for the last time and proceeded westbound for Hoboken. It was the last run of a railroad ferry on the Hudson. 

After world war two, Railroad ferries on the Hudson were operated by the Central Railroad of New Jersey, The Pennsylvania railroad, the Erie Railroad, the New York Central Railroad and the Lackawanna railroad. The PRR was the first to end operations to exchange place from Cortland st about 1950. New York Central operated the longest Hudson Route from Cortland st to Weehawken  being more than 20 minutes at sea so to speak. New York Central also operated a 42nd st run to Weehawken perhaps better known than the Cortland st run. They ended in the late 1950s. The Erie service was consolidated with the Lackawanna in the late 1950s and eventually merged  as the Erie-Lackawanna in 1960. The Jersey Central service went on into the mid 1960s . Thus the Erie Lackawanna operation was the last making the last run 50 years ago . Ferry service has been revitalized on the Hudson and East Rivers in recent years but is a different sort of operation than in the era of the railroad ferries. 

Here is the New York Centrals Niagara making the Cortlandt street run. 

 

a modern photo of the Lackawanna's New York City Barclay street terminal. This photo was made before the Erie Lackawana merger but consolidation of ferry services already in place with Erie boats using Lackawanna terminals. 

 

Lackawann also had terminal a little further up the river at Christopher street. It lasted into the postwar period . This is a turn of the century photo. Lackawanna boats also once served a terminal at 23rd street. I believe those services were gone before World war 2. 

and across river was the Lackawanna Hoboken terminal. You can see the ERIE sigh added above Lackawanna and the stacks have the EL herald on them on the boats. The terminal still exists and is used for NJDOT;s trains and PATH trains terminating in Hoboken. .Believe the modern service on the river may operate from here as well. 

The Lackawanna's POCONO on the crossing between Hoboken and Barclay Street

The BINGHAMTON on the crossing. Doesn't look too crowded in this photo. BINGHAMTON became a restaurant on the Hudson after its ferry days for some time. It had been closed in recent years looking for a pan to save her. Hurricane Sandy did her in in 2012. 

Lackawanna getting ready to depart on an evening rush hour trip. Who remembers the New York Telegram newspaper? This is what it looked like when she made her last run from Barclay street in 1967.

on board the LACKAWANNA . It had a grand feeling to be on board in the cabin. 

ELMIRA made the last crossing in 1967. She was tied up in Edison NJ for some time . She was visible from the Northbound New Jersey Turnpike. She also fell on hard times and became derelict itself.  

 

I have fond memories of my father and I riding the Delay, Linger and Wait (D.L& W)  to Hoboken and going to the train show that was held in the upper room(s) of the terminal. We would take a trip across on the ferry to NYC and eat lunch and walk about downtown. We would then buy a bunch of flowers from a street vendor to take home to my Mom. We would then take the ferry back to Hoboken and board the D.L& W for the ride home. That was over 60 years ago ... I miss my Dad and the good times we had together because we liked our trains, real and toy!

Great Story . My dad was the same. I think he was somewhat of a railfan , wanting to ride the different trains and related services. As a youngster, I seem to remember that we did ride different lines and routes just before they were abandoned or closed. We rode all those Hudson river ferries before they were gone as well as the 3rd ave el in Manhattan, the North sore and South beach SIRT in Staten Island and Lexington ave el in Brooklyn before they were gone. 

LIRR Steamer posted:

Great Story . My dad was the same. I think he was somewhat of a railfan , wanting to ride the different trains and related services. As a youngster, I seem to remember that we did ride different lines and routes just before they were abandoned or closed. We rode all those Hudson river ferries before they were gone as well as the 3rd ave el in Manhattan, the North sore and South beach SIRT in Staten Island and Lexington ave el in Brooklyn before they were gone. 

How thankful we can all be for the love and care that our Fathers imparted to us when we were young. 

Here are two of my favorite things  The Erie Lackawanna railroad and an R46 delivery  These were usually floated to Brooklyn's Bush Terminal railway and delivered to SBK

Third ave el

This is the West side of Manhattan  Freight platforms  Believe its 30 st.

Different view of Queens Plaza  The building to the right looks ezactly the same today  The building with the columns facade is still there but its connected to a much larger and modern Courtyard MArriott building

Third ave el construction   Not sure where

bluelinec4 posted:

Here are two of my favorite things  The Erie Lackawanna railroad and an R46 delivery  These were usually floated to Brooklyn's Bush Terminal railway and delivered to SBK

I like looking at all the pics posted here. This one caught my eye. I did not notice the brake wheel cut out so close to the nose of an SD45 before this?

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bluelinec4 posted:

Third ave el

Third ave el construction   Not sure where

Hello Ben ---

I just HAVE to (heh !)  correct your captions on these photos ABOVE found on / from your posting -- with copies BELOW of my own same photos.  By the way, the photographer of the 5th (last)  photo on your posting (its the 2nd one seen here ABOVE) is a personal friend of mine, Sid Kaplan, and Sid gave me copies of all of his 3rd Ave EL 8-1955 to 2-1956 ALL DEMOLITION PHOTOS photos for my collection..including the 5th (last one) one on your posting.

The upper top-most (also the 2nd seen on your message) - photo ABOVE here - being a duplicate of the original copy in my collection  - is NOT the THIRD AVENUE EL -!!!

Here BELOW is my similar full (non cropped) copy from my large 2nd Ave EL Photos Collection -

It IS looking north in 1939 from the north end of the Northbound E.34th Street Local station platform ON the SECOND AVENUE EL -- with a Southbound  (of ex-1904 subway cars) Composite 3-car local train passing an uptown local of IRT EL MUDC Cars.  In the distance is seen the twin island platforms of the E.42nd Street Express Station.  The NY Daily News building is the tall one behind the first Composite Car, with the taller Chrysler Building at the far left

======================================================================================================

The 5th, last photo on your posting,  IS NOT the "Third Avenue EL  ' Construction ' "  !!

Here BELOW is my original copy of that image, from Sid to me.  Taken in early October  1955,  it IS the DEMOLITION and REMOVAL of the Third Avenue EL !!.   The photo location IS looking south east towards the east side of 3rd Avenue from a rooftop on the west side of the Avenue from the S/W corner of E. 78th Street and 3rd Avenue,  ,with East 77th Street seen at center,  and the Northbound E.76th Street Local Station of the EL partially demolished.  You can also see the solid plate girders of the 1915 added center express track as contrasting to the original as built 1877 Lattice girders of the both local tracks.

BELOW is an  additional photo from Sid to me at this same location and early October 1955 date... but closer angled to East 78th Street which is where the lamp post is seen at the SW corner of 3rd & E.78th Street.  And to think I walked those streets back then and saw it all...a lifetime ago !

BELOW is a street level view from 2011 of the same view as the photo just above this one

As of this writing the entire east side of 3rd Avenue from E. 77th Street south to E. 74th Street, remains intact as it was in the above older 1955 photos, is some a bit "modernized" a bit.

Well, that should correct things Ben,  I presume you are enjoying your subway motorman career -- I fear you may be inhaling a bit too much subway ozone fumes, uremic fumes and brake dust, heh -- but otherwise I hope and expect you are OK and doing well !@!

Regards - Joe F

Ben,

The photo of the west side on Manhattan location is incorrect. The Composites never ran in service  on the West Side as they were too heavy. They ran a few light trains around the horn to 155th St. Station on the last day of service on the 9th Ave el to run on the new Polo Grounds Shuttle. Those few cars were transfered at night  The posted photo shown would have to be the 2nd or 3rd Ave. els.

regards , Nate

 

 

Engineer-Joe posted:

bluelinec4 posted:

Here are two of my favorite things  The Erie Lackawanna railroad and an R46 delivery  These were usually floated to Brooklyn's Bush Terminal railway and delivered to SBK

I like looking at all the pics posted here. This one caught my eye. I did not notice the brake wheel cut out so close to the nose of an SD45 before this?

<form action="showPicture.aspx?id=1933268" id="ctl00" method="post" name="ctl00"> </form>

Thats not an Sd45   Its an SDP45   Longer than standard SD45.  Bigger fuel tank.  EL never had intention of using them in passenger service so they were delivered without steam generators.  They wanted the bigger fuel tanks so they didnt have to refuel their fast piggyback service to and from Chicago

Hello Nate !

You mis-read in error, Ben's posting and photos with captions.  Ben's Captions are are TOP of each photo they describe.

The reference you mention about Ben's caption.... "This is the West Side of Manhattan....."  in that caption Ben refers ONLY to the NY Central Freight station tracks and platforms in the PHOTO DIRECTLY UNDER THAT CAPTION

That caption DOES NOT refer to the photo ABOVE it with the EL and the Composite Cars in it -  that caption which I already corrected to Ben as NOT being the THIRD Avenue EL --in my just previous posting made a short time before your own  posting to Ben  !

Go BACK to Ben's original posting with its 5 photos (and the Lackawanna Loco pulling the R-46 cars) and carefully scroll down and view the photos AND captions -- you will see your "West Side"  error !  ALSO note my posting to Ben giving CORRECTIONS info on that and another photo

Regards - Joe F

I stand corrected

 

In 1950 it was changed to NY Telegram & Sun. The Telegram bought out the Sun. I know because my father was advertising director of the Sun. "Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus." I doubt anyone on here remembers that.

eddie g posted:

In 1950 it was changed to NY Telegram & Sun. The Telegram bought out the Sun. I know because my father was advertising director of the Sun. "Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus." I doubt anyone on here remembers that.

I sure do remember that remark. Do you mean your father coined the expression?

Hello ALL

As long as there are Manhattan ferry terminals and ferry boats featured in other locations in this thread,  here is an very excellent professionally filmed set of two film movies edited to one video --- Manhattan Trolleys filmed in 1929 and a 2nd film done in 1924,  using likely 16mm  B&W movie film cameras.  There are description captions at the beginning  of each film segment --- LINK BELOW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKPx58N7xZQ

Regards - Joe F

 

 

 

bluelinec4 posted:

I stand corrected

 

Hello Ben  !!

And I would hope you would do the same favor to me if I accidentally posted something with incorrect information - thus providing the correct info for the benefit of all the visiting reader-viewers !!

Regards - Joe F

Joe F, thanks for the link to the ferry terminal videos.  Many a time I came across the North (Hudson) River on those ferries.  I remember that streetcars, with their open sides in the summer.  On a warm day, with a southerly breeze, there was an overpowering stench of hot blood from the New York Butchers Dressed Meat Company slaughterhouse a few blocks down.  Those ferries had reciprocating steam engines, great to watch down the gangway hatches from the car deck.

"Thats not an Sd45   Its an SDP45   Longer than standard SD45.  Bigger fuel tank.  EL never had intention of using them in passenger service so they were delivered without steam generators.  They wanted the bigger fuel tanks so they didnt have to refuel their fast piggyback service to and from Chicago"

Thanks Ben!!

Not sure this really falls into the category, since it's not New York proper, but I didn't want to post a new thread about it. These are grabs from a movie that was on FXM the other day - "Woman's World," from 1954. Near the beginning, three couples are arriving in New York - one by plane, one by train, one by car. The folks in the plane see these scenes:

The first I'm guessing is somewhere in New Jersey. There's a roundhouse near the right edge. Anyone know where? The second one appears, to me, to be a Brunswick Green GG1 leading over the Hackensack River, just west of what is now the Secaucus station. I-95 at upper right.

David

NKP Muncie posted:

Not sure this really falls into the category, since it's not New York proper, but I didn't want to post a new thread about it. These are grabs from a movie that was on FXM the other day - "Woman's World," from 1954. Near the beginning, three couples are arriving in New York - one by plane, one by train, one by car. The folks in the plane see these scenes:

The first I'm guessing is somewhere in New Jersey. There's a roundhouse near the right edge. Anyone know where? The second one appears, to me, to be a Brunswick Green GG1 leading over the Hackensack River, just west of what is now the Secaucus station. I-95 at upper right.

David

looks like meadows yard of the prr and Pulaski skyway in background.  Passaic river on right and Hackensack river on left.

Thanks, PRRTrainGuy. So that is now CSX South Kearny, I gather. And an NJ Transit maintenance site.

David

eddie g posted:

In 1950 it was changed to NY Telegram & Sun. The Telegram bought out the Sun. I know because my father was advertising director of the Sun. "Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus." I doubt anyone on here remembers that.

If I remember correctly, the NY Sun was the home of Don Marquis and the famous "Archie the Cockroach" who wrote about, among other things, Mehitabel the cat in daily collumns famous for only having lowercase letters 

If anyone on here remembers the "Yes, Virginia, there is a santa clause" when it was published they either are a vampire, a time traveller or otherwise really super annuated (I believe that was published back in the 1890's).  On the other hand the story itself has been quoted and published a lot, especially around Christmas. 

I do remember the World Telegram and Sun. It was an afternoon paper (as opposed to the morning Daily News). It's pages were also twice the size of the Daily News. It was a real talent to be able to fold it to a reasonable size for reading while hanging onto a strap of a bouncing subway car with the other hand!!! 

Jim

Ben, I have neglected to hop on this topic and tell you how much I enjoy seeing the Old New York photographs that everyone is sharing.  I always find "then and now" photographs to be fascinating.  I have never been to New York in my 62 years, but I do recognize many places from photographs.  Pittsburgh is "The Big City" to me!    Yinz can quit laughing any time now!  

jim P, my father nightly brought home the World-Telegram before it merged with The Sun.

Seeing those photos of Kearney area, does anyone have photos of Manhattan Transfer [no, not the band:-}], where PRR changed from steam to electric?  I've never been able to pinpoint the location

Namvet4 posted:

I have fond memories of my father and I riding the Delay, Linger and Wait (D.L& W)  to Hoboken and going to the train show that was held in the upper room(s) of the terminal. We would take a trip across on the ferry to NYC and eat lunch and walk about downtown. We would then buy a bunch of flowers from a street vendor to take home to my Mom. We would then take the ferry back to Hoboken and board the D.L& W for the ride home. That was over 60 years ago ... I miss my Dad and the good times we had together because we liked our trains, real and toy!

That was more than a train show at Hoboken.  It was one of the great O gauge model railroads of all time, the New York Society of Model Engineers.  They had a model of the Delaware Water Gap that must ahve been at least four feet high above the traks.  It included a model of the Hoboken terminal in which the layout was built.  They even had an MU branch line.  I live in Westchester and when I was in high school (1949-55) I woudlgo over to Hoboken when they had a show.  IO still have photos that I took in 1951/52 of the lst DL&W steam, a 4-6-2 waiting for a boonton Branch train.

 

 

Yup thats the Pennsy's Kearny yard   Its a CSX Intermodal facility now on one side and NJ Transit storage and Maintenance facility on the other  Heres how it looks now

If you look really really really close you can see Chef Vinny  He works just to the right of the yard

Staying with the old here are some Pennsy engines at Kearny

Mark Boyce posted:

Ben, I have neglected to hop on this topic and tell you how much I enjoy seeing the Old New York photographs that everyone is sharing.  I always find "then and now" photographs to be fascinating.  I have never been to New York in my 62 years, but I do recognize many places from photographs.  Pittsburgh is "The Big City" to me!    Yinz can quit laughing any time now!  

Well we have to rectify that and have you at the club  Cmon down

I have been to Pittsburgh and had a great time there   These may make you feel at home

This just happens to be one of those engines I wish somebody would make  Its an Alco Century 415

bluelinec4 posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

Ben, I have neglected to hop on this topic and tell you how much I enjoy seeing the Old New York photographs that everyone is sharing.  I always find "then and now" photographs to be fascinating.  I have never been to New York in my 62 years, but I do recognize many places from photographs.  Pittsburgh is "The Big City" to me!    Yinz can quit laughing any time now!  

Well we have to rectify that and have you at the club  Cmon down

I have been to Pittsburgh and had a great time there   These may make you feel at home

This just happens to be one of those engines I wish somebody would make  Its an Alco Century 415

Thank you Ben!  

Yes, the old B&O station.  I grew up out in the country in the same house my dad and grandpa grew up in.  However, it was about 1/4 mile from a rural B&O station.  Dad said they would ride the train in to the Pittsburgh B&O station then take a streetcar out to Oakland to see the Pirates play in Forbes Field.  He took us to Forbes Field later, but the B&O had stopped passenger service by the mid '60s.

Good point about not seeing a model of the Alco Century 415.

Very interesting 645!  Yes, I can see that an 111 year old movable bridge could be ready to replace.  Having never been there, I keep forgetting there is that huge lowlands there in New Jersey, hence the name Meadowlands I would say.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

That was more than a train show at Hoboken.  It was one of the great O gauge model railroads of all time, the New York Society of Model Engineers.  

My father and I made the pilgrimage from the Bronx on more than one occasion to this layout.  Subway, bus, and then the ferry ride made it quite a day. Good memories!

Jim

It was fantastic!  I still have the O and HO layout diagrams.

RJR posted:

It was fantastic!  I still have the O and HO layout diagrams.

I would really love to see that.  Do you have it in a form that you could show it to us ?

I'll have to find it.  Sheet is larger than my scanners

Still searching

At the turn of the century , the Els in Brooklyn were being consolidated into a single system which came to be known as the Brooklyn Rapid Transit or BRT. BRT's focus at the time was to expand its operations into Manhattan and to increase capacity and services using the East River crossings existing, under construction or planned. 

The Williamsburg Bridge opened for traffic in 1903. Initially Trolleys from the company's B&QT company which was the streetcar arm of BRT operated across the Bridge into an Underground Manhattan Terminal. El operations across the bridge were also planned but not in operation when the Bridge opened in 1903.

BRT engineers and management had an interest in loop operation and design similar to that hich was operating in Chicago. The Sands Street complex utilized a loop concept for trains ending their runs in downtown Brooklyn . The theory and rsults achieved that since it was unnecessary to change ends when the train reach its last stop, the dwell time was reduced which meant the terminal could accommodate more trains in a given time period. At the turn of the century, The BRT envisioned , planned and actually began construction on a large loop system which would tie together its trackage and terminals at the Manhattan and Brooklyn ends of each of the three bridges, Brooklyn , Manhattan and Williamsburg. A Multitrack El line was planned in Manhattan running on Center Street . The El structure was actually in place on the Williamsburg bridge on the Manhattan side when the bridge opened in 1903. New York City fought the plan insisting on a Subway route. The City prevailed and the Center street El never came topass.

Here is a photo showing the Williamsburg Bridhg Manhatta side with the El structure in place. 

And on the Brooklyn side, The Sands street terminal was already in place but never fully used as the BRT had envisioned. 

 

LIRR Steamer posted:

At the turn of the century , the Els in Brooklyn were being consolidated into a single system which came to be known as the Brooklyn Rapid Transit or BRT. BRT's focus at the time was to expand its operations into Manhattan and to increase capacity and services using the East River crossings existing, under construction or planned. 

The Williamsburg Bridge opened for traffic in 1903. Initially Trolleys from the company's B&QT company which was the streetcar arm of BRT operated across the Bridge into an Underground Manhattan Terminal. El operations across the bridge were also planned but not in operation when the Bridge opened in 1903.

BRT engineers and management had an interest in loop operation and design similar to that hich was operating in Chicago. The Sands Street complex utilized a loop concept for trains ending their runs in downtown Brooklyn . The theory and rsults achieved that since it was unnecessary to change ends when the train reach its last stop, the dwell time was reduced which meant the terminal could accommodate more trains in a given time period. At the turn of the century, The BRT envisioned , planned and actually began construction on a large loop system which would tie together its trackage and terminals at the Manhattan and Brooklyn ends of each of the three bridges, Brooklyn , Manhattan and Williamsburg. A Multitrack El line was planned in Manhattan running on Center Street . The El structure was actually in place on the Williamsburg bridge on the Manhattan side when the bridge opened in 1903. New York City fought the plan insisting on a Subway route. The City prevailed and the Center street El never came topass.

Here is a photo showing the Williamsburg Bridhg Manhatta side with the El structure in place. 

And on the Brooklyn side, The Sands street terminal was already in place but never fully used as the BRT had envisioned. 

 

The second pic is not the Williamsburg Bridge at all.  That is the Manhattan Bridge in the center, and the Brooklyn Bridge at the extreme left.  Sands St. is in Downtown Brooklyn, not in Williamsburg. 

Sorry if I misled anyone. The story intent was to discuss the overall BRT plan of a large loop system which would have connected the three East River crossings on both the Manhattan and the Brooklyn side. The first part of this plan was the Park Row terminal, the proposed Southern end of the loop in Manhattan , the Brooklyn Bridge crossing and on the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn Bridge , the Sands Street complex which was the proposed Southern end of the loop in Brooklyn. This part of the plan was operational prior to completion of El service on the Williamsburg Bridge. The plan as an El Loop never went any further than this development because of the City's insistence on a Centre st Subway in Manhattan alternate plan. 

The Centre st subway did ultimately lead to the completion of a Loop service configuration using the Manhattan Bridge The Nassau St extension and the Montague st Tunnel with the Dekalb Ave complex in Brooklyn. The Eastern division operations would use the Centre St Subway to reach downtown Manhattan through Chambers St. The P_ark Row, Brooklyn Bridge Sand Street part of the loop scheme became superfluous and was removed form service by 1944. 

LIRR Steamer posted:

I came across a pair of interesting photos from Art Huneke's site  . They show the crossing of the Montauk Branch at Flushing ave. The photos are taken from Mount Olivet tower about 1948 .  The crossing is at grade and the BQT Flushing Ave Trolley tracks can be seen The trolleys were still in operation with service to Park Row over the Brooklyn Bridge,so it was an active rail crossing as well. The industrial Building is one of several used by Welbilt for the manufactre of stoves and ovens and other appliances. Just to the right but not seen in the photo was Flushing ave crossing of the Bushwick Branch tracks. They went through the building . In the 1950s, the grade crossings were eliminated when Flushing ave was depressed in this area.

 

The steam engine and caboose are heading West towards Maspeth and LongIsland City. It is one of LIRRs H10s consolidations. The Hack actually is a PRR N6b cabin so yes you can run your MTH PRR N6b with your LIRR H10s.The markings on the cabin are very minimal. Interesting find.

 

 

 

 

Such a cool thread. Love this photo as the lower montauk is a branch I would eventually love to model. So much good stuff to read here! 

I don't know if somebody posted this but here's the central terminal